View Full Version : Prattlin' Dave's HiFi Rambles...
Hm I'm wondering if 44s sound more like 25s than they do 66s. Because the 25 isn't the most dynamic and lively speaker, especially at HF. The 25s I knew did sound bloody good, though. Deep extended bass and warm sound. Too warm for some, I'd say.
Who knows, these are OLD speakers now. It will be hard to know what has actually happened to some of them over time. Opinions will always be warped because of this - it being 2013 and all.
Remember Justin that James spent a lot of time and a fair bit of dosh refurbing the crossovers and replacing the internal wiring on the 44's. The tweeters are new and the mids and bass drivers are in excellent condition so I am pretty sure they are working optimally. I have put it down to experience and it illustrates perfectly why one should always try to listen to a pair of speakers at home in your own listening room and hooked up to your own system, preferably before one pulls the trigger on a purchase. That was not possible in this case, however I have no regrets as I learnt something valuable from the experience ;)
walpurgis
03-11-2013, 19:40
The Ditton 25s sound nothing like any other Celestion (or any other speaker for that matter). They are a bit "warm" and rather obscured through the lower mid, but pleasant enough for the price they can be bought for. Very easy to drive and work great with old valve amps. Still plenty coming up on eBay.
The Ditton 44 sound has more in common with speakers like the Goodmans Magnum series and the Wharfedale Dovedales.
Hm I'm wondering if 44s sound more like 25s than they do 66s. Because the 25 isn't the most dynamic and lively speaker, especially at HF. The 25s I knew did sound bloody good, though. Deep extended bass and warm sound. Too warm for some, I'd say.
Who knows, these are OLD speakers now. It will be hard to know what has actually happened to some of them over time. Opinions will always be warped because of this - it being 2013 and all.
Indeed. What this proves is that a) in the old days, it must've been a minefield trying to ascertain, from the recommendations of others, which models of Celestions were likely to best suit your ears, and b) it's pointless and totally erroneous labeling all Celestion speakers of that vintage as having the same 'house sound', when that patently isn't the case. The same also applies with Tannoys.
Some blinkered idiots elsewhere should take note of those facts, before spouting their ill-informed shite! ;)
Marco.
walpurgis
03-11-2013, 23:47
it's pointless and totally erroneous labeling all Celestion speakers of that vintage as having the same 'house sound', when that patently isn't the case. The same also applies with Tannoys. Marco.
Dead right. The only British firm from the seventies that I can think of that definitely had a 'house sound' were KEF, who engineered their speakers to give a (somewhat) similar character across the range (1st 'C' range). As for Celestion, the older models were basically all rather pleasant, some rather more accurate and imposing than others though. Tannoy on the other hand, have had seriously brilliant designs from day one really, but also made some pretty dire speakers. Just listen to a pair of the old D200s and you'll see what I mean.
Idlewithnodrive
04-11-2013, 11:11
Is there definitely out put coming from the tweeters? As they have been replaced is it possible they have become disconnected in transit? I wouldn't describe the 44 as bright sounding but mine had plenty of top end and didn't mask subtle percussion.
Otherwise the only thing I can think of is that you are used to your DM2 with its double tweeters, in which case you might find quite a lot of other speakers, particularly vintage models, sound dull in comparison.
This is exactly what I find with my 44's.
Certainly don't mask detail and no slouches either but then, I suppose it's a question of what you are used to and system synergy.
And also room acoustics Mike, as I explained in an earlier post ;)
Idlewithnodrive
04-11-2013, 13:49
And also room acoustics Mike, as I explained in an earlier post ;)
Certainly could be Dave; my room is small and other than a carpet, a chair and a hi-fi / records, pretty bare !
istari_knight
04-11-2013, 13:51
Certainly could be Dave; my room is small and other than a carpet, a chair and a hi-fi / records, pretty bare !
Sounds very similar to mine :)
Dave, If you ever get the chance to try Ditton 33's on the cheap go for it... I think their presentation would be far more up your street than the 44's.
Sounds very similar to mine :)
Dave, If you ever get the chance to try Ditton 33's on the cheap go for it... I think their presentation would be far more up your street than the 44's.
Indeed James or perhaps even 15xr's, for effectively they are the same as the County's I owned but with bigger cabs and an ABR :)
As the new owner of these i would like to say they sound nicely balanced driven by my 20 watt toca seca as per pm to James. I wasn't suggesting Dave's dm2 speakers are modern but that the double tweeter arrangement possibly means they have more high frequency output, more akin to modern designs. Lets be fair people ,but for internet hype most of this stuff would be skipped. glad to say these weren't and suit my taste.:)
Chris
Hi Chris, good to hear that the 44's have lived up to your expectations in an environment where they can really stretch their legs. Welcome to AoS my friend ;)
walpurgis
04-11-2013, 20:13
Indeed James or perhaps even 15xr's, for effectively they are the same as the County's I owned but with bigger cabs and an ABR :)
Not quite right Dave. The Dittin 15XR uses totally different drivers. The original Ditton 15 and County shared the HF1300 and similar bass drivers, although the one in the County if I recall was not doped and I suspect it had a slightly less powerful magnet.
istari_knight
04-11-2013, 20:16
↑ True. Not a fan of the original 15 personally... I found them boxy, coloured & dull.
Maybe just stick to B&W's :D
Not quite right Dave. The Dittin 15XR uses totally different drivers. The original Ditton 15 and County shared the HF1300 and similar bass drivers, although the one in the County if I recall was not doped and I suspect it had a slightly less powerful magnet.
Sorry Geoff but I am absolutely right. Below is one of the County's mate ;)
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/CelestionCounty1-1.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/CelestionCounty1-1.jpg.html)
istari_knight
04-11-2013, 22:21
Ahh those are later County's ... I had these in mind:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-9dSWjYzxNG0/Ujx2POc1l3I/AAAAAAAAKpM/DYZ53DyPt2I/w702-h548-no/RIMG0001.JPG
Ahh those are later County's ... I had these in mind:
Oh, I've not come across those before James. Hopefully it is now clear from the photo why I might think that the Ditton 15xr's could be more to my taste ;)
istari_knight
04-11-2013, 22:46
I think we've hit upon something critical here...
The older range are Ditton 10, County, Ditton 15, Ditton 25, Ditton 44 & Ditton 66. The newer one's [fitted with HF1000 tweeter] are County [mk2?] Ditton 15XR, Ditton 22 & Ditton 33.
Personally I've tried : Ditton 15, Ditton 33 & Ditton 44... Both the 15's & 44's definitely share DNA in the sound they reproduce, I found the 33's had a much more modern presentation [brighter / more lively.]
Then there are these babies which are Ditton 44 Series 2's ;)
http://muare1.vcmedia.vn/images/2012/04/09/mr_49062_4b6582675d7ef1df.jpg
istari_knight
04-11-2013, 22:56
They're even later I think - Look 80's to me ?
They're even later I think - Look 80's to me ?
No idea James, I found the pic when I was researching Ditton 44's before I bought yours. One thing though, you suggested that Ditton 25's are in the same ballpark soundwise as 44's. I'd sack it's three tweeters in that case as they are clearly not pulling their weight... :lol:
I really must get myself a headphone amp when funds allow :(
istari_knight
04-11-2013, 23:06
I havent heard the 25's but technically they are a complete mess. The bass driver is crossed over far too high, they had to use 2 tweeters to get the sensitivity high enough :doh: "Muddle in the middle" I think they were known as :D
Alright for pumping out pop tunes of the time.
walpurgis
04-11-2013, 23:19
Dave, It seems we were talking at cross purposes. I was refering to the first series of 15s and County.
James is being a little harsh on the 25s, after all they were Celestion's top model for quite a while until the 66 came along. They are not unpleasant to listen to.
Dave, It seems we were talking at cross purposes. I was refering to the first series of 15s and County.
Until James posted a pic I was unaware that there was an earlier model County than those I owned as it read 'County' on the labels to the rear of mine. Can you see why I think I might like the 15xr's now?
walpurgis
04-11-2013, 23:49
Can you see why I think I might like the 15xr's now?
Yes and no.
I've owned a couple of pairs of the 15XR. I know they seem popular on AOS, but I didn't like them as much as the original 15s. Of which I've had several pairs. That HF1300 tweeter is rather special, very transparent.
Strange that as I found the County's to be more open and transparent in the upper mids and at the top end than the DM2's, they just lacked the bass heft :scratch:
istari_knight
05-11-2013, 15:53
Dave, It seems we were talking at cross purposes. I was refering to the first series of 15s and County.
James is being a little harsh on the 25s, after all they were Celestion's top model for quite a while until the 66 came along. They are not unpleasant to listen to.
I feel I must remind you all that I actually like most Naim speakers therefore any opinion of mine regarding speakers is instantly null, void and worthless :D
I feel I must remind you all that I actually like most Naim speakers therefore any opinion of mine regarding speakers is instantly null, void and worthless :D
I've not had the pleasure of listening to any of Naim's speakers, what am I missing? :)
istari_knight
05-11-2013, 16:39
Based upon listening to IBL/SBL/Allea... Dry/lean bass but whats there is faaast & funky, dynamic, lively sound... Make music fun [IMO] but not so great if your into soundstage/imaging... I've only heard big [15" HPD] Tannoy's once & I dont recall the model but they were the complete polar opposite to every Naim speaker I've heard - Might give you an idea... I always wanted to hear some DBL's but never got the chance.
They dont suffer poor quality ancillaries gladly & you have to invest time positioning them & setting them up which is often done badly IME.
I very nearly bought some Allea a few years ago... Wish I did in as I cant afford them now :doh:
walpurgis
05-11-2013, 23:15
I feel I must remind you all that I actually like most Naim speakers therefore any opinion of mine regarding speakers is instantly null, void and worthless :D
'Horses for courses' eh? (unfortunately, some horses fall at the first fence) :D
I always wanted to hear some DBL's but never got the chance.
Maybe not for this thread but I've heard DBLs on the end of a full Naim system and the word 'disco' comes to mind. Quite, quite horrible.
istari_knight
06-11-2013, 08:17
'Horses for courses' eh? (unfortunately, some horses fall at the first fence) :D
Maybe not for this thread but I've heard DBLs on the end of a full Naim system and the word 'disco' comes to mind. Quite, quite horrible.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c129/istari_knight9/76_zpsba2432ce.gif :D
I havent heard the 25's but technically they are a complete mess. The bass driver is crossed over far too high, they had to use 2 tweeters to get the sensitivity high enough :doh: "Muddle in the middle" I think they were known as :D
Alright for pumping out pop tunes of the time.
I'll tell my brother that next time I see him. It'll probably elicit a wry smile.
istari_knight
07-11-2013, 20:05
I'll tell my brother that next time I see him. It'll probably elicit a wry smile.
If one enjoys the sound they produce what else matters ? I stand by my criticisms which are after all, just my opinion. Even if they did happen to be facts I'm sure it wouldnt stop people enjoying them... There's some truly shocking speakers out there that only the "designer" could love and yet they have thousands of very happy owners :)
I agree with you.
His wry smile is his way of saying "b*ll*cks". He uses this method of communication infrequently. But when he does so I always enjoy it:)
Sitting in my system just now are a nice pair of Wharefdale Linton 3XP's courtesy of Dave Wren of Radlett Audio fame. I owned a pair of these donkeys years ago which were hung off the back of a cute 15wpc Sony TA73 integrated amp. The TT in this system was a Pioneer PL12D and a Glanz MFG11T cart was installed on the Pioneer. I am happy to get reacquainted with these speakersn as I liked what they did in the system. Okay they don't deliver the last word in SQ, they are a bit bass shy for example and the midrange driver has a tendency be a bit shouty on certain material, however they deliver a reasonably honest portrayal of the music they are fed and because of this they have a certain charm about them. I should also mention that cabinet build quality is excellent. They will be staying with me for a while as the Linton's will serve while my DM2's are away being fettled, which hopefully will be sometime in early 2014.
Funny that Lintons should come up. My uncle has some he bought new ( he is 83) and was asking me if hooking them up to his LCD TV was a good idea as he is not happy with the SQ from the TV speakers.
I'm intrigued by the updated DM2, look forward to hearing about them when they are done, Dave.
Cheers Martin, interested parties will hear about the results on here once the work has been carried out and the DM2's are back with me, but as I mentioned, that won't be until next year now as Christmas takes precedence.
I have a confession to make. My initial review of the Linton 3XP's was conducted with them sat atop the DM2's which themselves are sat upon a pair of Atacama SL400 stands, not an ideal setup. This placed the poor Linton's way too high for them to perform to the best of their ability so this morning I bit the bullet, removed the DM2's and placed the Linton's directly onto the stands with far more promising results. The shoutiness I described before has all but disappeared and bass performance has improved significantly. Hooked up to a decent system and positioned correctly these humble Wharfedales are no slouch. Okay, their bass output is still not going to rock you out of your boots but what there is is well defined and tuneful. Bass would probably benefit from some reinforcement if I could position the Lintons closer to the rear wall but I am loath to mess about with repositioning the stands as I don't want to upset the setup for the DM2's. Mids now sound more natural and the Lintons resolve detail very well indeed, although they are not quite on a par with the B&W's. What has come as a complete surprise is that these little babies image very well indeed, at least as well as the DM2's. They are pleasantly styled too and look quite contemporary for a design which is of a similar vintage to the DM2's. I'm not about to give the DM2's the heave ho but I reckon with a bit of sympathetic fettling the humble Linton XP3's could be excellent performers.
I have yet to discover another make or model of loudspeaker which have the DM2's ability to make so-so recordings sound good and quality recordings sound sublime, and the Linton's are no exception here. They are happier playing music with less complex arrangements although they will take a decent stab at portraying something a little wilder, such as Metallica's Black Album for example, without going to pieces. In short, if aliens were to abduct the DM2's tonight I wouldn't be rushing to replace them in a hurry ;)
Quick Linton update: They are big Madonna fans these Wharfedales, man they are rocking to Vogue just now... :lol:
Quick Linton update: They are big Madonna fans these Wharfedales, man they are rocking to Vogue just now... Is that a good thing? :lol:
istari_knight
12-11-2013, 20:25
I remember the 3XP's very fondly... They were my first after all ! I do recall the mounting screws loosening over time & needed tightening but that may have been due to the fact I always listened to them with the loudness button on :lol: :fingers:
Winging their merry way to Dave's Cave as I type are a set of RFC's finest Reference Pluto IC's courtesy of that most excellent of chaps, Brian (2957). These particular Pluto's are a wee bit special however as they are fitted with Eichmann Silver plugs so I am very much looking forward to installing them between DAC and pre in my system. Brian, you are a star of the highest order my friend, thank you ;)
brian2957
15-11-2013, 10:37
Posted this morning Dave , should be with you tomorrow. :)
T'is time for me to give my initial impression of these IC's, bearing in mind it is very early days as yet :)
Everything is quieter! Now that's a first... Yup, levels are definitely down in comparison to my trusty Gear City OFC interconnects and that's not all, bass is less full and extended which has come as a big surprise. There is also a slight veil over everything which has impacted on the systems ability to resolve micro detail. In short, music is now less involving as a result, which is even more of a surprise to me.
I don't understand the level thing at all therefore I can only surmise that something in these IC's is attenuating the signal in some way. So, what is the cause of this mayhem? For that I think we need to look carefully at the differences between the two cables, in which case we must consider the plugs to be the culprits - Furutech FP126's on the Neptune's and Eichmann Silver Bullets sans Pluto's. The Furutech cable used in both builds is identical which rules that out of the equation, and the only other difference is that the Pluto's arrived clothed in black, open weave plastic sheathing whereas the Neptune's I own sport none. The Neptune's proudly display their Crimson Furutech skin and look more attractive for it I might add, another benefit being that they are far more flexible which helps a bundle with routing. Paul, save yourself some money on the build dude and supply these two cables nude.
I will leave the Pluto's in situ for a while just in case there is some sort of 'burn in' issue, however if things don't improve then with Brian's permission, I may ask Paul to replace the Eichmann's with Furutech FP126 plugs and also request that he remove the sheathing. If Brian would rather I didn't take this course of action then unless things improve by the end of the week the Pluto's will be making the return journey north of the border.
My comments above appear to have caused some consternation so I will clarify them. The two cables differ in-as-much as the Neptune's are devoid of black, plastic weave sheathing (to keep costs down Paul left this off my Neptune's during the build) and the plugs, however both employ identical Furutech cabling. You can draw your own conclusions from this and to reiterate, my comments were solely based on the logical premise that I felt it was the plugs which were responsible for the differences I heard in the sonic signatures of the two cables. I prefer the presentation of the Neptune's, however I fully accept that others might lean towards the Pluto's which are more laid back in their presentation IMHO.
My apologies to Paul Coupe for any confusion which has arisen over my evaluation.
brian2957
18-11-2013, 19:48
Aye we're all different Dave and like different things , including sounds from our hifi . I have to admit that my experience of the Plutos wasn't the same as yours and I absolutely loved them . Perhaps synergy ( or lack of it ) is at play here , but the Plutos sounded absolutely outstanding in my system . The only reason I was thinking about moving them on was due to a drastic downsizing of my system but I have to admit that I've missed them , so I'll probably have a rethink and just reinstall them again.:)
Aye we're all different Dave and like different things , including sounds from our hifi . I have to admit that my experience of the Plutos wasn't the same as yours and I absolutely loved them . Perhaps synergy ( or lack of it ) is at play here , but the Plutos sounded absolutely outstanding in my system . The only reason I was thinking about moving them on was due to a drastic downsizing of my system but I have to admit that I've missed them , so I'll probably have a rethink and just reinstall them again.:)
A wise decision sir, if I may say so :)
It has been an interesting day during which a few things have fallen into place. A package arrived this morning from brian2957 containing his Beresford Bushmaster mkII, two 2.5m lengths of Talk3 speaker cable and a Lapp flavoured mains lead. More toys to play with but before getting down to some serious fun a nice warm cuppa and a ciggy were required on this chilly November day.
Job number one involved replacing an MCRU No14 mains lead powering my Quad 306 with the Lapp inspired lead resulting in a subtle lift in performance across the board, including a slight improvement in bass solidity and an increase in definition throughout the entire frequency spectrum. Listening to Cassandra Wilson's wonderful album, Closer To You: The Pop Side, it was immediately apparent that little subtleties in the back of the mix had more presence and detail. Plucked guitars sounded more lifelike for example. We are talking an incremental level of improvement rather than a drastic increase but every little helps.
Next up was the removal of the Rega DAC from the system and another MCRU No14 mains lead powering my Classé DR5 pre-amp, which was replaced by a Lapp mains cable that previously served duty powering the Rega. Next into the breach was Brian's BM2 after which I set about connecting everything up. I hooked up my set of Gear City IC's which are built with double shielded OFC cable and are fitted with WBT plugs, nothing too fancy but they were amazing value at £12.99 a pair and perform admirably when piping the analogue signal into the DR5 from the Rega. Next up a Profigold PGD4015 Oxypure digital coaxial lead took up its rightful place between the music server and BM2 and likewise, a quality optical digital lead sourced from MCRU a couple of years ago was slid into place between the CDP and BM2. All that remained was to hook up the power and leave everything to warm up for an hour or so.
After a couple of cuppas and an impatient break (just over an hour actually) I got down to some serious listening. On went the Cassandra Wilson album once again and immediately I noticed something was not right. Bass was overblown and the top end sounded forced and artificial which in turn made the midrange sound thin and recessed. Cymbals were splashy and course and Cassandra's silky voice had taken on a hard, unpleasant edge. A bit taken aback I ran through some of the other material I had played before making the changes with much the same effect. Not good. Realizing something was very wrong I sat down to another cuppa and a puff whilst mulling over what could be causing this unexpected issue :scratch: After a while a germ of an idea began to form.
Remembering that some find the Rega to be just a little laid back for their tastes and also the consternation caused by my assessment of the Reference Pluto IC's at the weekend I switched the Gear City IC's for the Pluto's out of curiosity. Whoa!!! Straight away I understood the cause of both situations. It would appear that the Gear City IC's are an excellent synergistic match for the Rega DAC, colouring the signal in such a way as to allow it to transcend its rather smooth delivery and consequently giving it the boost it requires to allow it to stretch it's legs, whereas the Reference Pluto's were likely adding nothing to the signal and therefore were probably giving the more honest account of what the Rega actually delivers through its analogue outputs. With the Reference Pluto's in situ between the BM2 and the DR5 the overblown bass was banished to be replaced by the tightest and most extended bass response I have ever heard from a DAC, it is truly impressive. The course top end has also been reigned in by the Pluto's although not completely, plus there is still a slight hint of brashness to vocals leading to an increase in sibilance particularly with female voices. This is most apparent on my digital 24/96 copy of Come Away With Me during which Nora Jones appears to be spitting her S's at the mike throughout the album, something which was never apparent when using the Rega. Now, whether this is a needle drop or not is unknown to me as I sourced it from a DVD full of HD audio files I acquired when I bought some vinyl from our local recycle centre (I discovered the DVD hiding inside the outer cover of a The Rolling Stones album I purchased as part of a bulk lot). If it is a needle drop then the BM2 may well be accentuating a less than optimal arm/cartridge setup but we will never know for sure.
There is much to like about the BM2 and Stan is to be congratulated for his outstanding work on this DAC, it is an excellent performer for the money. It is too early for me to state whether I prefer the BM2 over the Rega, both DAC's do various things very well indeed. I would say the Rega delivers the more natural presentation in my system plus it is devoid of the BM2's slight tendency towards brashness. IMO it also delivers a more fluid and believable midrange performance particularly with vocals. The best way to describe this is thus: Utilizing the BM2 vocalists sing at you whereas with the Rega they sing to you. Perhaps by the end of the week, once the BM2 has settled in, this situation will be reversed. I will keep you posted ;)
A little update on what I have written above: Within the past couple of hours the BM2 seems to have shifted into another gear entirely, how is that possible? I am listening to Another Country from Cassandra Wilson just now and this album has never sounded so bloody brilliant on my system. Any brashness from the earlier session seems to have gone walkies and it is as if I am wearing aural 3D glasses such is the width, breadth and depth of the soundstage with all the players arranged just so within it. Fabulous stuff... :band:
brian2957
19-11-2013, 21:09
I've just PMd you Dave stating exactly what you have found , that the Bushmaster will improve with use . This is an exceptional DAC . I'm glad it's' growing ' :) on you .
Incidentally powering the Bushmaster with a 12V car battery takes it into another league altogether . A few of the guys on here are in the middle of purchasing Li-on batteries which I believe will provide a further improvement.
The BM2 takes time to settle down from cold as it burns very little power. I have learned to leave mine on permanently.
There wasn't much listening going on here today. For some inexplicable reason the system has developed a hum which modulates when my printer is in operation. I have since narrowed it down to the pre-amp. My guess is that I probably disturbed something when installing the BM2 and various cables yesterday, however I ran out of back today therefore I have been unable to sort it out due to intense pain. I'm hoping I'll be able to get onto it tomorrow as I have really missed my sounds today :(
Most likely a dislodged earth connection, Dave.
Most likely a dislodged earth connection, Dave.
I have checked every connection throughout the system thoroughly. I have replaced mains leads and IC's with unused leads I have lying around to no avail. I have also called Stan and he advised earthing the BM2 to my pre-amp, which I did, however the hum issue persisted with the BM2 in circuit. With the Rega DAC back in the system all is quiet again with just a hint of background hiss being present, however I know the hiss is generated by the DR5 as it has been present from the day I purchased it from Mark (Reid Malenfant), and in fairness to him he did warn me that this was part of the DR5's character.
Having had the entire system apart chasing this issue I think I have exhausted just about every possibility so I am left scratching my head on this one. With the Rega in place there is no hum, in which case there is little point me hanging on to the BM2 so regrettably I will be sending it back shortly. I must thank Brian for the loan of his BM2 and for being so gracious, he really is a top bloke :)
Dave - Have you checked it is not the lapp mains cable?
vinylspinner
22-11-2013, 09:53
May also be caused by the power supply for the printer, is it a wall wart type? may be worth unplugging the printer and trying again.
Nigel
Dave - Have you checked it is not the lapp mains cable?
Yes Martin, I swapped out every signal and mains cable and even went as far as removing individual components from the system. There are two very good reasons why I am determined to be thorough in dealing with this problem, the first being that the BM2 was really beginning to sing in my system. As it began to settle down it was gradually overtaking the Rega in performance terms and I liked what I was hearing. Another boon was that I could listen through my headphones once again. Secondly, I am harbouring a distinct feeling of deja'vu and that's about as far as I am going with that.
May also be caused by the power supply for the printer, is it a wall wart type? may be worth unplugging the printer and trying again.
Nigel
Did this too Nigel... :eyebrows:
After much wailing and gnashing of teeth the missus and I have decided we are moving to an all digital setup. Although it is nice to have the capability to play vinyl with such an excellent TT as the Technics SL1210 I am finding it nigh on impossible to spin any records due to my health issues. I can count on the fingers of both hands how many times I have been well enough to play any vinyl since the beginning of the year so it is a wee bit silly to keep pretending that I can. The digital side of my setup is very capable and honestly, music does sound rather wonderful even when streaming from Spotify.
Since doing my back in other complications have developed which combined have put paid to me even standing to clean records, let alone going through the racks to choose an album to play. Setting up an arm was always difficult for me but now I can't do it at all. I was planning to move back to using my Goldring 820 in the SME but I just can't face the agony it will cause me to fit it (installing the DL160 laid me up for nearly a week). It's a regrettable state of affairs however I need to be pragmatic, and therefore, in the not too distant future, my Techie and the various upgrade bits will find themselves starring in Private Exhibitions.
My sympathies, Dave. I don't look forward to becoming immobile and cannot envisage not being able to play LPs. "Hope I die before I get old" indeed :(
My sympathies, Dave. I don't look forward to becoming immobile and cannot envisage not being able to play LPs. "Hope I die before I get old" indeed :(
That's the bit that really hurts Martin, I love the outdoors and was also a keen cyclist once upon a time. The area surrounding where I live contains some gorgeous scenery and I'd think nothing of getting up early on a Sunday morning to head out on the bike for the day (often with a camera), as long as the weather played ball. It gets to me sometimes that I can no longer do this sort of stuff (This is probably why I go off on one every now and then :eyebrows:). I have found a substitute of sorts though. If I'm feeling a bit low I shove on some good tunes and hit Google Earth (the one Google product I cannot do without). I then pick a likely location (could be anywhere in the world) and hit street view (I probably know the back roads of Utah as well as anyone local to the area for example). It's a fun way to see the world if you can't do it for real :)
Canetoad
23-11-2013, 15:08
I like your attitude Dave! All the best. :)
If I were to let it get to me Bernie I would feel utterly desolate, I will not allow that to happen ;)
If I'm feeling a bit low I shove on some good tunes and hit Google Earth (the one Google product I cannot do without). I then pick a likely location (could be anywhere in the world) and hit street view (I probably know the back roads of Utah as well as anyone local to the area for example). It's a fun way to see the world if you can't do it for real :)
That's great lateral thinking, and great use of available technology.
That's great lateral thinking, and great use of available technology.
If someone had told me back in 1977 for instance, that by 2013 I would be able to sit at home and tour the the world in stunning resolution on a "TV" screen, and in real time, I would have been utterly blown away. Isn't technology wonderful? :)
With mucho thanks to Jerry (Jandl100) I should be receiving his Tisbury Audio passive pre-amp this week to audition in my system (Jerry, please get in touch mate as I need to sort out the cost of postage with you). If I like what I hear then I shall be buying one to replace the Classé DR5 so consequently I shall be putting this up for sale. Watch this space for further news if you are interested in the DR5 ;)
The Tizzie arrived this morning (thanks Jerry :thumbsup:) and I wapped its teeny tiny bod straight into the system. Aye up Jerry t'is a bit special in't it? It sounded very good straight out of the box (well it would wouldn't it, there is nothing to warm up :lol:). There are two very minor niggles however, neither of which would be a deal breaker for me: The volume control crackles if one sweeps it up or down the scale with enthusiasm plus it is also quite stiff to operate. Other than that I think the DR5 is beginning to search sheepishly for its coat. I may well be buying one of these wee beasties in the not to distant... :cool:
p.s. It's a shame I've already shipped the Reference Pluto's back to Brian as I would have liked to have tried them between the Tizzie and the Rega. Ah well, can't have it all... ;)
Spectral Morn
26-11-2013, 19:05
I am sorry to hear about the situation you find yourself in Dave - I hope it doesn't get worse.
Regards Neil
I am sorry to hear about the situation you find yourself in Dave - I hope it doesn't get worse.
Regards Neil
Thank you Neil, I still have my music which keeps me going mate :)
Just got a 306 - wonderful little amp, think it was seeing this thread & you waxing lyrical about them that prompted me to pop a bid on one on ebay, won it at quite a keen price!
Has helped me rediscover my Ruarks, they were stored away in the spare room as I just couldn't find an amp they sounded good with, this changed today!
Cheers Dave!
The Tizzie arrived this morning (thanks Jerry :thumbsup:) and I wapped its teeny tiny bod straight into the system. Aye up Jerry t'is a bit special in't it? It sounded very good straight out of the box (well it would wouldn't it, there is nothing to warm up :lol:). There are two very minor niggles however, neither of which would be a deal breaker for me: The volume control crackles if one sweeps it up or down the scale with enthusiasm plus it is also quite stiff to operate. Other than that I think the DR5 is beginning to search sheepishly for its coat. I may well be buying one of these wee beasties in the not to distant... :cool:
p.s. It's a shame I've already shipped the Reference Pluto's back to Brian as I would have liked to have tried them between the Tizzie and the Rega. Ah well, can't have it all... ;)
Dave, I had that very same Tissie in my system but no sign of noise then - a few months back, though.
Anyway, check this out for something that looks a little better (if you care) but you can get R/C with them http://akustyk.com/ (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BALANCED-passive-preamp-preamplifier-48-Stepped-attenuator-/121186132332?pt=US_Home_Audio_Amplifiers_Preamps&hash=item1c3741a16c).
There's a balanced one on ebay. The one thing I will say is the contacts for these type of pots wear. I was using a Kondo M77 (not mine!) a while back with exactly that problem!
Scroll down the page here (http://www.affordableaudio.org) for a review.
Nice one Roy, they are fabulous sounding little things and because of their size, so easy to site. If yours hasn't been recapped it is well worth doing as the original 'lytics will be getting a bit tired by now ;)
Nice one Roy, they are fabulous sounding little things and because of their size, so easy to site. If yours hasn't been recapped it is well worth doing as the original 'lytics will be getting a bit tired by now ;)
Was thinking that and as I got it for just over a ton don't mind spending a bit more. Just swapped back to my 405-2 and that sounds a little better BUT has been recapped & is being fed by a Quad 77 CDP rather than the Pioneer one I had playing through the 306 (direct via a variable line out, just put in place to try the 306 out... four hours later I was still looking for CDs to play!)
Oh and I've got a 'Tizzie' arriving tomorrow ;)
Dave, I had that very same Tissie in my system but no sign of noise then - a few months back, though.
It's no biggy Justin. if I move the control slowly and steadily there's no hint of crackle from either channel. I was under the impression the Tizzie employed a resistor based unit (sorry, I don't remember the proper terminology) although I could be mistaken.
Anyway, check this out for something that looks a little better (if you care) but you can get R/C with them http://akustyk.com/ (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BALANCED-passive-preamp-preamplifier-48-Stepped-attenuator-/121186132332?pt=US_Home_Audio_Amplifiers_Preamps&hash=item1c3741a16c).
There's a balanced one on ebay. The one thing I will say is the contacts for these type of pots wear. I was using a Kondo M77 (not mine!) a while back with exactly that problem!
Scroll down the page here (http://www.affordableaudio.org) for a review.
Cheers Justin, I will take a looksie ;)
Well chaps the decision is final, we are going totally digital. Over the next few weeks I will be selling off quite a few interesting bits and pieces so keep 'em peeled as there will be some very desirable items on the list, such as a Michel record clamp, a Funk Acromat, a Herbies Way mat, a set of Vantage Audio feet, a lightly used Denon DL160, a very lightly used Goldring G820 with original stylus, an SME Series III with all accessories (boxed), a damping trough plus all accessories for an SIII (boxed) plus many other odds & sods. Last but not least will be the Techie itself complete with a Paul Hynes SR3 linear power supply ;)
To all those who bought stuff from me last week, your bits and pieces will be posted out to you tomorrow guys. I can only apologise for the delay but as some of you are no doubt aware, Friday (the initial shipping day) turned into the complete day from hell for us all here at Synsei Towers. Thankfully most of this got sorted out over the weekend although there are still a couple of loose ends to tie up still. Anyway, we have decided that today (Monday) is going to be our chillout day after such a stressful weekend, we reckon we've earn't it. Please bear with us, everything is packaged and ready to go so there will be no further delays. Thank you all for your patience ;)
I can also announce that my Classé Audio DR5 is officially up for sale. I have decided to head in a completely different direction with my system, so as such I no longer require such a well specified pre-amp. I will get some details and piccies up in Private Exhibitions tomorrow sometime. Those in the know will remember that I bought the DR5 from (Mark) Reid Malenfant nearly three years ago now, and Mark is very particular about the quality of gear he will allow into his system. It really is a superb piece of kit which is built like a brick outhouse. Tonally it is quite transparent sounding therefore it makes an excellent partner for most power amps. Since it has been with me it has driven the power stage of a NAD C350, a Hafler DH220, an Amptastic Mini T, a Delphonica Valhalla One tube amp, and last and definitely not least, the current incumbent, a Quad 306. It partnered well with all of these amps, however it was (and is) most happy driving the Valhalla and the Quad.
So, if you fancy giving the Classé a go then watch out for my post in the PE thread tomorrow ;)
So, if you fancy giving the Classé a go then watch out for my post in the PE thread tomorrow ;)
It's probably not going to be until the weekend actually as my 'old war wound' is playing up again... :eyebrows:
I ordered something rather special on Sunday evening, I wonder if you can guess what it is? All I will tell you for now is that it is a special order and that the chap building it for me will be incorporating American Black Walnut and black acrylic into the construction of the casework. Sometime this week I should be receiving pictorial updates of the build so I will post a couple of teasers when they arrive. Oh and if anyone has a cheapo MM phono stage knocking about that they don't want please contact me via PM with a price... Cheers ;)
Just a quickie: I now have a set of Talk 3 speaker cables in the system and they are very, very good. Anyhoo, I can't stay as I have lots of brilliant music to listen to... Toodlepip!!!!
Dave are you looking for an MM Phono stage as a keeper or just a temporary solution so you can sell the Classe and still use vinyl in the short term?
if the latter I have a Project Phono box you can borrow whilst making the transition, I only keep it as a spare for much the same reasons
That's very kind of you Mark however I will need something permanent. I had intended to give up on vinyl completely for reasons which I explain a little further back in the thread, however a kind and thoughtful member has offered me a Technics SL5 linear tracker which should be easier and less painful for me to operate when I want to play vinyl. The SL5 is equipped with an MM P Mount cartridge. I have been offered an Angle Audio MM stage which I intend to purchase once the DR5 has sold ;)
I've been busy over the last few days planning for the big changes to come. There are several new elements coming which will be introduced into the system in due course, one of which I will remain fairly tight lipped about just now for if it turns out to be as good as I have been promised, I will sing its praises on here. Arriving on Thursday will be a near mint Pioneer DV737 DVD/CDP. After doing my research I am expecting big things from this smart, champagne coloured disk spinner. Arriving later on today will be a Technics SL5 linear tracking turntable which is destined to replace the SL1210 once I have a phonostage to play with. It has been a while since I placed any photos on this thread so I intend to remedy this situation shortly. Watch this space ;)
istari_knight
05-12-2013, 01:04
Your going all Japanesey then Dave ? I used to have a DV-717, makes a cracking transport & perfectly respectable as a standalone player. IIRC the 737 was similar but with better video DAC's or something.
A similar forgotten gem worth keeping an eye out for is the Sony DVP-S7700... let just say its "competent" ;)
jandl100
05-12-2013, 05:12
Just a quickie: I now have a set of Talk 3 speaker cables in the system
Good move! :thumbsup:
A very fine cable which imho sees off far more expensive rivals.
..... a kind and thoughtful member has offered me a Technics SL5 linear tracker which should be easier and less painful for me to operate when I want to play vinyl.
What a great forum AOS is. :)
I have been offered an Angle Audio MM stage
An excellent sounding device which punches well above its weight. Personally I prefer it to a Trichord Dino.
Arriving on Thursday will be a near mint Pioneer DV737 DVD/CDP. After doing my research I am expecting big things from this smart, champagne coloured disk spinner.
As James says, one of the best CD transports there is, and a very fine CDP in its own right.
-----
So what is happening on the amp side of the things? -- a personalised Tisbury passive pre isn't on its way, is it, Dave? ;)
Whatever - your downsizing is going to leave you with a very fine sounding system indeed! :mex:
I can send you a 2 part cork record mat Dave for your new TT gratis just pm your address again dude if you want it :)
Your going all Japanesey then Dave ? I used to have a DV-717, makes a cracking transport & perfectly respectable as a standalone player. IIRC the 737 was similar but with better video DAC's or something.
You are right James, the video DAC's are far superior in the 737 plus it supports progressive scan, whereas the 717 doesn't. Thankfully Pioneer didn't mess with the CD side of things so in theory it should be just as good on CD playback as the 717. Whether it will better the performance of my Arcam CD72 remains to be heard. Personally I doubt it will but i'm all ear, I will know for certain tomorrow.
So what is happening on the amp side of the things? -- a personalised Tisbury passive pre isn't on its way, is it, Dave? ;)
Whatever - your downsizing is going to leave you with a very fine sounding system indeed! :mex:
I suppose I had better come clean seeing as you have an interest in this Jerry ;)
After giving it a lot of thought I have not plumped for a Tisbury. Don't get me wrong Jerry, I love what yours is bringing to my system but in the end my choice of unit has been dictated by connectivity and ergonomics issues. I rang Anthony at BTE Designs (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251374743599?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649) who produces an excellent value but basic passive pre which he sells on ebay for £44.95. I was straight with him and told him that I was considering buying a Tisbury but that what I really needed was a unit of the same spec but with more inputs than the Tizzie offers. Specifying three inputs and two outputs, one variable and one fixed, Anthony, who is an excellent bloke to deal with incidentally, said he'd do some digging around and get back to me, which he duly did about an hour later. He is building me a passive pre which matches the spec of the Tizzie exactly but with the extra inputs I've asked for. What's more, and at no extra cost, he is housing it in a custom build American Black Walnut and acrylic enclosure. My only criticism of the Tizzie is that the volume control feels a bit cumbersome. IMO the control knob is neither deep nor wide enough which results in it feeling quite stiff in operation. I mentioned this to Anthony therefore he will be fitting larger, quality turned aluminium knobs to my unit. These will be black in colour to match the black acrylic he is using in the build. He has also promised to keep me updated throughout the build. Because I have specced non standard parts it will take around two weeks to get everything together for the build, so I should have it here within the next three weeks or so. I am very excited about this project which should furnish me with a bespoke passive pre-amp of the same quality, if not better, than the excellent Tisbury item, and how much is it costing me for all this? Well, here's the clincher. Including all that I have stated above plus point to point silver wiring thrown in for good measure, it comes in at just under one hundred pounds (£99.95 to be precise) :)
jandl100
05-12-2013, 08:55
:thumbsup:
How exciting! :yay:
-- hang on to the Tizzie til you're sorted. :)
I can send you a 2 part cork record mat Dave for your new TT gratis just pm your address again dude if you want it :)
I will grab one of those David, thank you. PM incoming ;)
Dave, let me know when you want the Angle posting out to you - we can sort payment out anytime.
Dave, let me know when you want the Angle posting out to you - we can sort payment out anytime.
As long as you are sure Keith, thank you bud. PM incoming :)
brian2957
05-12-2013, 10:01
Don't ya just love this forum and its fantastic members :)
Don't ya just love this forum and its fantastic members :)
You're not kidding Brian. I will need to invest in a brewery soon to fulfill the demand for the huge round of drinks I owe to all those who have helped me out :D
brian2957
05-12-2013, 10:10
Yup . I'm in that club too Dave . I've received so much help on here in the past . Good luck with the new gear mate .
As long as you are sure Keith, thank you bud. PM incoming :)
Yes, of course. Once this rain and gale-force wind stops, I'll get it to the post office.
It's been a long time since I posted any photos so this one will have to do for now until I have more time (and back) available to take some better ones. There are a couple of wee issues to address however I will expand on these later as I need to rest my back now...
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/systempic1.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/systempic1.jpg.html)
As you can see from the photo above a Pioneer DV737, Technics SL5 linear tracker and Angle Audio phonostage landed at synsei towers today courtesy of Ninanina, Loo and Keiths. Although my back is suffering for it now I got to work installing all three items as soon as I had unpacked them.
First to see action was the SL5 as I was keen to get some vinyl playing. I hooked up the Technics and Angle stage to the Tizzie with a couple of spare sets of Belkin IC's and immediately hit a snag. It turns out that a phono plug on one of the sets of Belkin's is knackered. Basically it wasn't grounding to the socket properly and I suspect it is due to a poor connection within the plug body. How do I know this? Well, because I made the most basic of errors and wiggled it about on the socket without taking precautions. Of course the volume control was well up and beyond the twelve o'clock position on the Tizzie :doh: The results of my idiocy are plain to hear, two fried Coles supertweeters. I am a fooking twat, it's official :(
istari_knight
06-12-2013, 20:29
Major bummer :(
I did exactly the same thing a couple of years back & took out a B200 woofer...
Canetoad
06-12-2013, 20:52
Sorry to hear that Dave. Hope you get it sorted OK.
Sorry to hear that Dave. Hope you get it sorted OK.
Sadly it won't be this side of Christmas Bernie as I have taken myself to the limit buying the gear I have over the last week or so, unless I can sell my Techie or DR5 before Christmas...
Installed in the system now are a pair of Linton xp3's which I bought recently and as such I can confirm for certain that the Coles in the DM2's have ceased to be. The Linton's will just have to do for now until I have the cash to buy a new pair of Coles'. Thanks for the tip btw James ;)
Ah, bummer Dave. Thank goodness for spare speakers.
Can you repair the interconnects? If not, send them over and I'll do them.
Up and running again and spinning vinyl at last, although yesterday I had a wee problem with hum from the SL5. It needed grounding but initially I couldn't find the grounding lug on the TT. It doesn't have one as such however upon closer inspection of the rear of the unit I discovered a 3mm diameter hole to the right of the phono sockets which is marked with the earth symbol. Whether it is some sort of socket or perhaps tapped to take a brass post and knurled nut I really couldn't say, but for now I have dressed a half meter length of 2.5mm thick speaker cable which I have more or less screwed into the hole. Whilst it is reasonably secure it's not ideal however it'll do for now until I can find a better solution.
I tell you what guys, this old Technics SL5 doesn't sound bad at all. Fair enough, it isn't going to bother Marco or MartinT's snarling beasties any time soon but it isn't far off my own Techie 1210 in SQ, which is a mightily pleasant surprise. David Brook sent me a two part Blue Horizon style turntable mat which arrived this morning (Thanks David :youtheman:). Now, I wasn't sure I'd be able to use the mat on the SL5 for a couple of reasons; the first being that there is a small, pivoted plastic lug which pokes up through the platter and engages centrally with a records run out grooves. My hunch is that this triggers a sensor which in turn informs the decks microprocessor that there is a record present. There is a small slot in the Technics mat to allow the lug to poke through unimpeded. Of course there is no such slot on the Blue Horizon copy so the microprocessor will treat it as a record. I will need to be careful not to operate any of the controls with the MCRU mat in place otherwise I can kiss goodbye to the stylus. At some point I will cut a slot through the MCRU mat with a craft knife using the original as a template to avoid any unnecessary and expensive accidents. Secondly, I was a little worried that the MCRU mat might be a little to tall as there is no way to adjust arm height on this deck. Luckily with both sections in place it is exactly the same height as the original mat so that's a result and it also sounds good and damps the platter somewhat better than the standard item.
I also took receipt of an Angle Audio MM phone stage yesterday and I have to say it is a remarkable thing. Although I won't be able to judge it properly until the DM2's are fixed and back in the system, what I am hearing through the Linton's is very encouraging. I will write this up in more detail at a later date ;)
Moving onto the Pioneer DV737, the jury is still out on this one. In SQ terms it just about matches the Arcam CD72 as a transport but it is not better by any means. In fact there are a couple of areas where the Arcam trounces it, the first being the speed with which a disk is recognized. Place a disk on the Arcam's outstretched CD tray and you will be listening to it within three to four seconds of pressing Play, and that's with the tray open, whereas the mechanism on the Pioneer is somewhat more stately (and noisy) and as such you will be waiting at least 10 seconds before the first note of your chosen album is delivered to your ears. The Arcam is also far more tolerant of scratched disks, and yes I do have a a few which have seen battle in various cars throughout the years and for which I have yet to obtain replacements. In absolute terms you would probably need to drill a hole through a CD to upset the Arcam in any significant way. The error correction circuitry in the CD72 is the best I have ever come across and it is truly staggering what it will play without a hint of complaint, I know because I have tried it with CD's which would make most other units lift up their skirts and run for the hills...hills...hills...hills :D The Pioneer on the other hand is far too regal to tolerate a mere scratch, it would spoil its afternoon tea for one thing. Unless one nudges it on with the appropriate control it will just sit there berating the impudent imperfection until the universe fizzles out of existence. "Error correction??? I am a Pioneer DV737 you fool and thus far too cultured to reproduce an error, how dare you!!!"
Both units sport a fine set of togs although their chosen styles couldn't be more different. The Arcam appears to have been designed by Lockheeds infamous Skunk Works and as such, do expect it to sneak up on you completely undetected at any time, upon which it will slamdunk a JDAM guided bomb precisely into the centre of your cup of Earl Grey. Yup, I can imagine the Arcam coolly exiting a black Chevy Surburban in it's sharp, charcoal grey suit, complete with earpiece, as it levels a Desert Eagle in your general direction :eek: It is a smart and purposeful looking unit, which pretty much sums up how it operates too.
The Pioneer on the other hand might have been designed by Fabergé. As with the Arcam, the build quality on this machine is remarkable, it is almost jewel like in its execution, albeit a very big jewel. Indeed, the Pioneer is frankly palatial in comparison with the Arcam's rather squat, bunker-like proportions. Finished in Champagne Gold brushed aluminium it is a very pretty thing to behold, however some may struggle to house it on equipment racks with shelves which are less accommodating than the norm. Although the Pioneer is the same width as a standard sized component, it is quite tall (about the same height as a Teac VDRS series CDP) and a little deeper. Because of its size you might want to check with your local council that you don't need to pay council tax on it as a second home :D The controls on both units are ergonomically laid out with those on the Pioneer feeling more solid as they are made from aluminium whereas those on the Arcam are plastic, although both feel positive in operation. I am undecided as to which unit a prefer just now but my choice will ultimately be judged on two factors, reliability of CD playback and style, as there is nothing between them in SQ terms.
Ah, bummer Dave. Thank goodness for spare speakers.
Can you repair the interconnects? If not, send them over and I'll do them.
That is very kind of you Martin, I will take you up on that my friend. PM incoming ;)
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/SL5ampAngleStage.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/SL5ampAngleStage.jpg.html)
:)
Same mat I have on my 1200. I love linear trackers and nearly bought an SL7 a couple of times - managed to resist temptation :). I used to have a lovely Kenwood DD linear tracker with programmable settings, honeycomb chassis, brushed stainless steel fasica and touch sensitive controls, each with its own embedded red LED - one of those bits of kit you sell then regret it before the buyer is even out the door.
Dave , I have just been reading this thread ,oh man what can I say I feel so upset for you , am I right in thinking the coles are model 4001g or are they the 4001k version ,
Paul
Dave , I have just been reading this thread ,oh man what can I say I feel so upset for you , am I right in thinking the coles are model 4001g or are they the 4001k version ,
Paul
They're the G's Paul. I am a great believer that stuff happens for a reason and in this case I reckon I am being told to stop being a wus and use this opportunity to re-fettle the DM2's myself, after all I will have to crack the cabs to fit the new tweeters so I may as well perform the re-wire job and the other bits and pieces we have been discussing on the DM2 Fettling thread while I am in there ;)
Yeap that makes sence , and could end up with a great feeling of satisfaction , also you can still get new 4001g's so should not be too much of a parts sourcing nightmare
have fun fettling them and I will enjoy reading the write up
Paul
The Grand Wazoo
07-12-2013, 23:47
Coming along nicely Dave!
I have one of the Angle Audio units and I had it configured specifically for the Decca cartridge I use on the Goldring. It really is a fantastic little thing - I think you'll be very happy with it.
Same mat I have on my 1200. I love linear trackers and nearly bought an SL7 a couple of times - managed to resist temptation :). I used to have a lovely Kenwood DD linear tracker with programmable settings, honeycomb chassis, brushed stainless steel fasica and touch sensitive controls, each with its own embedded red LED - one of those bits of kit you sell then regret it before the buyer is even out the door.
The only linear tracker I have heard for myself before now Martin was one fitted to a 1980's Amstrad stack system, and as cheaply made as it was you could still hear the benefits of the design. They have an immediacy which is unique and sound so sure footed. The SL5 is a little gem which can really set the old feet a-tapping ;)
Joni Mitchell famously stated on her track Big Yellow Taxi, "Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got till it's gone". Sometimes however when something is gone it is not always apparent that it is being missed until one rediscovers it. I'm in that situation right now with the Technics SL5. It has been a very, very long time since I played vinyl on a fully automatic turntable and now that I have one again, I realize just how much I have missed the sheer convenience of it...
chris@panteg
09-12-2013, 09:59
The SL5 is lovely little deck , I bought One a few years back but gave it to my father in law when I got the SL-QL1, I love the technics linear trackers , in some ways more musical than the 1200 .
Strangely, I am enjoying it far more than I ever did the SL1210 and have been playing albums which never got a look in on the SL. The fact that I can have an album cleaned and onto the deck in less than a minute might have something to do with it Chris. It sounds bloody good too :)
chris@panteg
09-12-2013, 10:24
Strangely, I am enjoying it far more than I ever did the SL1210 and have been playing albums which never got a look in on the SL. The fact that I can have an album cleaned and onto the deck in less than a minute might have something to do with it Chris. It sounds bloody good too :)
Excellent, what stylus do you use ? You can get a Jico sas if you're feeling flushed but there are cheaper alternatives which still good.
Excellent, what stylus do you use ? You can get a Jico sas if you're feeling flushed but there are cheaper alternatives which still good.
It's orange, and that's all I can tell you Chris :lol:
I suspect it is the one which was supplied with the TT however it sounds as fresh as a daisy. I had a browse on LPGears website earlier and they sell P mount carts and stylii, some of which piqued my interest, especially the Ortofon X1-MCP high output MC ;)
chris@panteg
09-12-2013, 10:35
It's orange, and that's all I can tell you Chris :lol:
I suspect it is the one which was supplied with the TT however it sounds as fresh as a daisy. I had a browse on LPGears website earlier and they sell P mount carts and stylii, some of which piqued my interest, especially the Ortofon X1-MCP high output MC ;)
Oh, well worth getting one of those, I've been meaning to get one for my QL1, you should enjoy that.
Idlewithnodrive
09-12-2013, 11:09
The SL5 is lovely little deck , I bought One a few years back but gave it to my father in law when I got the SL-QL1, I love the technics linear trackers , in some ways more musical than the 1200 .
I am using a fully Auto Technics SL-Q303 and I find, as Chris says, that it is as good as the 1210 but more musical (I always felt the 1210 was a bit too clinical (digital ?) in its presentation, sort of lost the soul of the music) and with the added benefits of ease of use.
It was supposed to have been a stand-in while I finished modifying my Lenco. The Lenco has been finished and is gone but the Techie is still here ;)
I am using a fully Auto Technics SL-Q303 and I find, as Chris says, that it is as good as the 1210 but more musical (I always felt the 1210 was a bit too clinical (digital ?) in its presentation, sort of lost the soul of the music) and with the added benefits of ease of use.
It was supposed to have been a stand-in while I finished modifying my Lenco. The Lenco has been finished and is gone but the Techie is still here ;)
Wow, that's interesting Mike and pretty much supports my situation here. I have enjoyed owning my SL1210 however I find listening to music on the little SL5 a more engaging experience :)
Idlewithnodrive
09-12-2013, 11:45
Wow, that's interesting Mike and pretty much supports my situation here. I have enjoyed owning my SL1210 however I find listening to music on the little SL5 a more engaging experience :)
Exactly that Dave.
The 1210 was good and with the usual cheap'ish mods a perfectly good performer but the SL-Q303 (with decent mat, feet and headshell) is equally as good and, I couldn't have put it better myself, just more engaging.
chris@panteg
09-12-2013, 11:56
Exactly that Dave.
The 1210 was good and with the usual cheap'ish mods a perfectly good performer but the SL-Q303 (with decent mat, feet and headshell) is equally as good and, I couldn't have put it better myself, just more engaging.
I find my 1210 ,even with the mods still has this heavy handed way of portraying music , young Gromit described as a ' one trick pony ' he has a point !
It has a slightly dark tonality which can sound a bit shut in , in the wrong set up , I think its the plinth ? The Voyd I used to own had a much lighter airier balance , sounded more open .
I'm not going to criticize my 1210 as it has given me a lot of pleasure on the relatively few occasions I have been well enough to use it, however the fun is back now. I have I Just Can't Stop it by The Beat spinning on the SL5 just now and it is bopping its little heart out in a manner which the 1210 could never accomplish with this album. I would pogo around the room if my back would let me... :lol:
Idlewithnodrive
09-12-2013, 13:06
I'm not going to criticize my 1210 as it has given me a lot of pleasure on the relatively few occasions I have been well enough to use it, however the fun is back now. I have I Just Can't Stop it by The Beat spinning on the SL5 just now and it is bopping its little heart out in a manner which the 1210 could never accomplish with this album. I would pogo around the room if my back would let me... :lol:
I wouldn't knock mine either (I've had two) and they are great at what they do well, especially at their price point, although that is now rising quite steeply.
The only thing I couldn't get them to be was naturally musical as opposed to sort of forced musical. The Rega decks, for instance, are great at being effortlessly musical.
at the risk of derailing Dave's thread, so a brief question rather than a discussion
how does a linear tracker work then?
Perhaps, Dave, as you like what the SL5 does, you should scour eBay for a good SL10, perhaps the ultimate execution of the fully automatic linear tracker?
To others, I find my 1210 highly musical and infectious and not at all 'heavy handed'. There is no way of demonstrating it to you save your hearing it for yourself, but I thought I'd throw my balancing view in :)
Perhaps, Dave, as you like what the SL5 does, you should scour eBay for a good SL10, perhaps the ultimate execution of the fully automatic linear tracker?
To others, I find my 1210 highly musical and infectious and not at all 'heavy handed'. There is no way of demonstrating it to you save your hearing it for yourself, but I thought I'd throw my balancing view in :)
It's something I am considering for the future Martin although for now I am more than happy with the SL5 to be honest, it does sound very good indeed and is built really well. No cheap, flimsy plastics on this baby ;)
Idlewithnodrive
09-12-2013, 15:44
To others, I find my 1210 highly musical and infectious and not at all 'heavy handed'. There is no way of demonstrating it to you save your hearing it for yourself, but I thought I'd throw my balancing view in :)
Martin, I don't doubt that a 1210 can be made to be an amazing deck in every sense. I was talking only about the very lightly modified examples I have owned and have experience with. At that price point they are capable performers just lacking that magical 'musicality' IMHO.
If you throw a lot of money at them on uber modifications, we do get back to the age old chestnut of 'when is a 1210 not a 1210' though.
I was talking only about the very lightly modified examples I have owned and have experience with.
Ah, in that case I am with you and agree that the 1210 is somewhat dark in character.
If you throw a lot of money at them on uber modifications, we do get back to the age old chestnut of 'when is a 1210 not a 1210' though.
Yep, and I'm not really bothered. It was a 1210 once, and is quite different now. However, that galactic class motor is still there and still unchanged. So perhaps it's correct to say that the essence of greatness has simply been properly realised.
Idlewithnodrive
10-12-2013, 08:36
However, that galactic class motor is still there and still unchanged. So perhaps it's correct to say that the essence of greatness has simply been properly realised.
Can't argue with that either ;)
To others, I find my 1210 highly musical and infectious and not at all 'heavy handed'. There is no way of demonstrating it to you save your hearing it for yourself, but I thought I'd throw my balancing view in :)
I'll throw mine in, too! Based on what I'm hearing with my own modified 1210, the very notion of descriptions being applied such as 'heavy handed', 'dark' or 'shut in' is utterly absurd... :eyebrows:
As usual, folks, it's all about synergy (and judiciously addressing the areas of the Technics responsible for limiting its full potential)! ;)
Marco.
chris@panteg
11-12-2013, 08:24
Nice '
What is absurd to me is that after spending around £2,000 or thereabouts ? My 1210 still fails to outperform a Yamaha DVD player , the very idea of this must seem absurd , I'm afraid its true though and I have no great love for the Yamaha!!
It's actually quite funny in a strange way, I guess I haven't got the right upgrades lol.
Feel free to have snide laugh at my expense , not bothered.
What is absurd to me is that after spending around £2,000 or thereabouts ? My 1210 still fails to outperform a Yamaha DVD player , the very idea of this must seem absurd , I'm afraid its true though and I have no great love for the Yamaha!!
That's a real shame, Chris. Not laughing at all, mate. Perhaps you should start a new thread, listing your mods, so that we can have a group think about it and make some suggestions?
chris@panteg
11-12-2013, 08:39
That's a real shame, Chris. Not laughing at all, mate. Perhaps you should start a new thread, listing your mods, so that we can have a group think about it and make some suggestions?
Sorry Martin , I sort of feel like giving up on it to be honest.
brian2957
11-12-2013, 08:43
Been there a couple of times myself Chris. I keep forgetting that this is a hobby and taking it too seriously :mental: instead of sitting back and enjoying the music . Hope you find what you're looking for.
jandl100
11-12-2013, 10:10
What is absurd to me is that after spending around £2,000 or thereabouts ? My 1210 still fails to outperform a Yamaha DVD player , the very idea of this must seem absurd , I'm afraid its true though and I have no great love for the Yamaha!!
It's actually quite funny in a strange way, I guess I haven't got the right upgrades lol.
Feel free to have snide laugh at my expense , not bothered.
No, not laughing.
The Techie 1210 Route is not for everyone - even a way out full-on version gives a certain 'type' of sound, ime.
I think of it as the Testosterone Turntable - flex the wall dynamics and slam, but perhaps not the way to go if subtle dynamic inflexion is a priority. More for Massive Attack than girl with guitar, if you know what I mean.
Spending (even) more money on your 1210 might still not deliver the goods for you, imho.
The Techie 1210 Route is not for everyone - even a way out full-on version gives a certain 'type' of sound, ime.
Of course it does, as all (effective) modifications can do is maximise the inherent 'sonic signature' of the turntable, although I wouldn't necessarily agree with your description of a "full-on" version of the Technics. The challenge with a modified version is getting the synergy right, as you're not dealing with a predetermined 'factory solution' from a specific manufacturer, so mistakes can easily be made.
This is also one of the reasons why I think people such as your good self and Dave have 'downgraded' to a technically 'lesser' turntable and obtained more satisfying results, musically - quite simply because the stock T/Ts you now have achieve a synergy of sound you guys unfortunately (for whatever reason) never managed to obtain with your modified 1210s.
In an absolute sense, it may not be a better sound, but to you it's a more enjoyable one, and ultimately that's all that matters. However, in that respect, some of us have managed to achieve both 'better' and 'more enjoyable', through perhaps being lucky that all the 'random bits' (for want of a better description) we've picked and fitted to our turntables have worked!
Think about it: there's got to be a valid reason why some people get it right with their Techies and some don't. The fact is, if the traits being associated with it here were inherent flaws in the design of the turntable (thus incapable of being successfully addressed without a radical redesign), then I very much doubt if there would be so many satisfied SL-1200/1210 users out there! ;)
The fact is, ALL turntables have a certain 'type' of sound, whether they've been extensively modified or not. I reckon that I could tell the difference blind between, say, a modified SL-1210, an LP12 and a Michell Gyrodec, probably even if they were fitted with different arms and cartridges, quite simply because they all excel in different areas, and have a rather distinctive (at least to my ears) 'house sound'...
Oh, and I'm not laughing either, Chris. This is an old story with you, mate, and one that I would dearly love to identify myself (by listening to your turntable), and attempt to fix, if we lived nearer! :)
Marco.
Nice '
What is absurd to me is that after spending around £2,000 or thereabouts ? My 1210 still fails to outperform a Yamaha DVD player , the very idea of this must seem absurd , I'm afraid its true though and I have no great love for the Yamaha!!
It's actually quite funny in a strange way, I guess I haven't got the right upgrades lol.
Feel free to have snide laugh at my expense , not bothered.
Whoa Chris you will hear no side laughter from me mate. It's a tragedy that you have spent the money you have and yet have been unable to strike a balance which satisfies you :( As Jerry stated, maybe the Techie upgrade path isn't for everyone. Marco has often written that it is important to listen to an upgraded example of this TT, although perhaps with a different sentiment in mind. Your experience brings this advice into sharp focus for a very different reason.
In the meantime the SL5 continues to impress both myself and Jo. I wonder whether its startling performance is due to the fact that the technology employed keeps the stylus perpendicular to the groove across the entire playing surface. Let's face it, even though the SL5 is a well made item and possesses a reasonably weighty acoustically dead cabinet, the platter is lightweight and there is no quartz lock for the motor which should inhibit its performance somewhat according to accepted doctrine. The cartridge and stylus fitted are the standard units Technics originally supplied with the TT so there's no exotica there, and yet I have enjoyed playing vinyl on the SL5 more, over the few days I've owned it, than I have on any TT I have owned previously. Go figure :scratch: As MartinT suggested above, perhaps the next logical step for us would be to source an example of the pinnacle of this art, a Technics SL10. We shall see. For now though I am more than happy to carry on as I am ;)
Well, the DR5 has sold subject to payment and the cash should be with me tomorrow evening. It is being picked up on Sunday. I am really excited though because if all goes smoothly I am hoping to secure Dan's (Ledzep) ART Skibo's. If they outperform the DM2's in my room, which I am hoping they will, once I have secured and fitted new Coles tweeters for the DM2's I can recoup some of the expense by selling them on. I can hardly contain myself... :D
http://theartofsound.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=11187&d=1386783687http://theartofsound.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=11188&d=1386783746http://theartofsound.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=11189&d=1386783772http://theartofsound.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=11190&d=1386783852
WOOHOO!!!! By the end of the month I am going to be the very proud owner of a pair of ART Skibo's :D Many thanks to Dan for tolerating a very happy and excited Dave... Now, breath..... breath.... :lol:
Merry Christmas everyone... :D
brian2957
12-12-2013, 09:03
Well done Dave :)
Thanks Brian. Man, I will be so glad to see the back of these Linton's. They're alright for what they are but.... :D
Many thanks to Dan for tolerating a very happy and excited Dave... Now, breath..... breath.... :lol:
Careful, Dave. You'll be sounding like IRoastedCleggsCoconuts soon :lol:
That's great Dave , seems you were right karma eh, also glad your getting on with the Sl-5
Don't worry about the condition of the stylus it's only done about 30 hrs since being replaced about a year ago
Paul
istari_knight
12-12-2013, 16:54
Nice upgrading skillz :thumbsup: :D
That's great Dave , seems you were right karma eh, also glad your getting on with the Sl-5
Don't worry about the condition of the stylus it's only done about 30 hrs since being replaced about a year ago
Paul
That's good to know Paul. Even if it were knackered though a new one isn't going to break the bank, I've found an ebay shop which sells two for £12.99 :D
Nice upgrading skillz :thumbsup: :D
The plan was to liberate some cash with these sales but this was far to good an opportunity to pass up. Still, once the DM2's are fixed they will be going head to head with the Skibo's and the loser of that contest will be leaving us... :eyebrows:
Here is a preliminary photo of the casework for the passive pre which is being built for me by Anthony from BTE. Early days yet but aesthetically, for me, it is spot on. Oh look, is that a 'stepper' I spy on the worktop? :D
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/a32522c3-034a-4f56-897b-ab63d4a100ff.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/a32522c3-034a-4f56-897b-ab63d4a100ff.jpg.html)
That's a real shame, Chris. Not laughing at all, mate. Perhaps you should start a new thread, listing your mods, so that we can have a group think about it and make some suggestions?
+1
I'm having a few ups and downs on my Techie 1210 journey so I would follow such a thread with interest.
WOOHOO!!!! By the end of the month I am going to be the very proud owner of a pair of ART Skibo's :D Many thanks to Dan for tolerating a very happy and excited Dave... Now, breath..... breath.... :lol:
Merry Christmas everyone... :D
It's cool glad you are happy Dave, happy they are staying in the AOS family and it's nice to spread some joy and happiness to a fellow AOS member :)
julesd68
13-12-2013, 10:56
Here is a preliminary photo of the casework for the passive pre which is being built for me by Anthony from BTE.
How do you rate the Tisbury passive Dave?
Thanks Brian. Man, I will be so glad to see the back of these Linton's. They're alright for what they are but.... :D
Let me help you... they are a bit.... shite. At least the pair I owned years ago were.:)
Ammonite Audio
13-12-2013, 12:36
Whoa Chris you will hear no side laughter from me mate. It's a tragedy that you have spent the money you have and yet have been unable to strike a balance which satisfies you :( As Jerry stated, maybe the Techie upgrade path isn't for everyone. Marco has often written that it is important to listen to an upgraded example of this TT, although perhaps with a different sentiment in mind. Your experience brings this advice into sharp focus for a very different reason.
In the meantime the SL5 continues to impress both myself and Jo. I wonder whether its startling performance is due to the fact that the technology employed keeps the stylus perpendicular to the groove across the entire playing surface. Let's face it, even though the SL5 is a well made item and possesses a reasonably weighty acoustically dead cabinet, the platter is lightweight and there is no quartz lock for the motor which should inhibit its performance somewhat according to accepted doctrine. The cartridge and stylus fitted are the standard units Technics originally supplied with the TT so there's no exotica there, and yet I have enjoyed playing vinyl on the SL5 more, over the few days I've owned it, than I have on any TT I have owned previously. Go figure :scratch: As MartinT suggested above, perhaps the next logical step for us would be to source an example of the pinnacle of this art, a Technics SL10. We shall see. For now though I am more than happy to carry on as I am ;)
I reckon no quartz lock is precisely the reason why you are enjoying the SL5
I reckon no quartz lock is precisely the reason why you are enjoying the SL5
That's interesting Hugo, why would that be? Isn't QL more or less essential for good speed stability... :scratch:
Ammonite Audio
13-12-2013, 18:37
That rather depends on how frantic the speed correction is in a Quartz locked design. The (rightly venerated) Pioneer PL-71 does not have QL and still manages to achieve good speed stability. My Kenwood KD-770D does have QL but its motor has modest torque and the QL seems to be gentle in its operation; the result is a rather nice, fluid and graceful sound. As always, generalisations are not helpful, but IMO high torque coupled with aggressive speed monitoring and correction is often a recipe for poor musical reproduction. I'd hazard a guess that your SL-5 has a relatively low-torque drive system.
jandl100
14-12-2013, 08:50
Oooo - I bet that passive pre is gonna be a good'un. Stonking value with a pot of that quality, Dave. :thumbsup:
How do you rate the Tisbury passive Dave?
Put it this way Jules it has ousted the Classé DR5, something I thought would never happen as it is a serious bit of kit. The Tizzie is very, very good especially in partnership with the 306, if you like total openness and transparency this combo delivers it in spades. At the moment I am not hearing the best from it because of the bloody Wharfedales, but with the DM2's in place (before I blew the Coles') the system was absolutely magical, far and away the best I have ever heard it sound. Once the BTE jobby gets here the Tizzie will be moving on to its next foster home, which may be some time next week as things are progressing at a fair old lick. I am so looking forward to getting the Skibo's in the system, if I could teleport them here right now believe me I would... :eyebrows:
Oooo - I bet that passive pre is gonna be a good'un. Stonking value with a pot of that quality, Dave. :thumbsup:
Tell me about it Jerry. Even if the BTE pre matches the Tizzie in performance I will be ecstatic, however I have a sneaky feeling it may surpass it considering the quality of components being used in the build. Anthony is such a fabulous chap to deal with, I have asked him to build me a headphone amp in the same size and style of cabinet for our next project. The passive pre and headphone amp should look awesome stacked atop one another and if they perform half as good as they look I will be a happy man ;)
brian2957
14-12-2013, 10:39
Christmas comin early then mate .:eyebrows:
Looks that way although the real improvements won't be apparent until the end of the month when the Skibo's arrive. I wish it was the end of the month now... :eyebrows:
chris@panteg
14-12-2013, 15:34
Whoa Chris you will hear no side laughter from me mate. It's a tragedy that you have spent the money you have and yet have been unable to strike a balance which satisfies you :( As Jerry stated, maybe the Techie upgrade path isn't for everyone. Marco has often written that it is important to listen to an upgraded example of this TT, although perhaps with a different sentiment in mind. Your experience brings this advice into sharp focus for a very different reason.
In the meantime the SL5 continues to impress both myself and Jo. I wonder whether its startling performance is due to the fact that the technology employed keeps the stylus perpendicular to the groove across the entire playing surface. Let's face it, even though the SL5 is a well made item and possesses a reasonably weighty acoustically dead cabinet, the platter is lightweight and there is no quartz lock for the motor which should inhibit its performance somewhat according to accepted doctrine. The cartridge and stylus fitted are the standard units Technics originally supplied with the TT so there's no exotica there, and yet I have enjoyed playing vinyl on the SL5 more, over the few days I've owned it, than I have on any TT I have owned previously. Go figure :scratch: As MartinT suggested above, perhaps the next logical step for us would be to source an example of the pinnacle of this art, a Technics SL10. We shall see. For now though I am more than happy to carry on as I am ;)
Sorry Dave , I shouldn't take it so seriously, just a bit of frustration creeping in , and you should hear and buy an SL10 , I listened to souped up SL10 in my system courtesy of Richard (vantage) I wanted it.
I did try a little experiment with my 1210 , substituting a thick piece of glass instead of the notts analog board, Sat on foculpods, this altered the sound from my techie rather dramatically, but not for the better lol, suddenly the midrange became very forward, the top end a bit harsh but worse of all the bottom end had this boingy boomy effect, yikes!!! get that out here lol
I did laugh, it was an interesting and highly amusing experiment but it told me that maybe it's what is supporting my deck that is the problem ? Perhaps, it's not an easy problem to solve or cheap I suspect.
Sorry Dave , I shouldn't take it so seriously, just a bit of frustration creeping in , and you should hear and buy an SL10 , I listened to souped up SL10 in my system courtesy of Richard (vantage) I wanted it.
No need to apologize Chris I understand your frustration. As for your SL10 comment, it brought to mind a funny memory of a review in one of the hifi rags back when Technics first brought the SL10 to market. I forget which mag and the name of the reviewer, might have been Noel Keywood actually. Anyway, at the top of his review he was eulogizing about just how good the SL10 was in every department, writing things like; "I have never heard such drive and pace from a turntable before" and, "on dance tracks the SL10 reproduces basslines which literally thump into your chest" and, "renders the full scale, power and delicacy of an orchestra so well one could almost weep with joy". I think he liked it. The funny bit however was further on in the review, where he spent a good three paragraphs trying to convince the reader. and himself more than anyone else, just why the Sondek's coloured and rather stodgy delivery in relation to the SL10 was more desirable. Well he didn't convince me and I'm pretty sure he wasn't convinced either... :lol:
I did try a little experiment with my 1210 , substituting a thick piece of glass instead of the notts analog board, Sat on foculpods, this altered the sound from my techie rather dramatically, but not for the better lol, suddenly the midrange became very forward, the top end a bit harsh but worse of all the bottom end had this boingy boomy effect, yikes!!! get that out here lol
I made a couple of isolation platforms out of 6mm glass chopping boards a couple of years ago which were supported on adjustable, spiked brass feet and cups. I sat one under my CDP and experienced pretty much what you did with glass under your Techie. They are now both employed for their intended purpose in the kitchen :)
I did laugh, it was an interesting and highly amusing experiment but it told me that maybe it's what is supporting my deck that is the problem ? Perhaps, it's not an easy problem to solve or cheap I suspect.
A friend of mine achieved excellent results using two layers of 3mm cork sheet sandwiched between three sheets of 3 ply. When rapped with a knuckle all you get is a dull thud. I wonder actually whether it might be even more effective if the proportions of cork to 3 ply were reversed :scratch:
Idlewithnodrive
16-12-2013, 11:11
That rather depends on how frantic the speed correction is in a Quartz locked design. The (rightly venerated) Pioneer PL-71 does not have QL and still manages to achieve good speed stability. My Kenwood KD-770D does have QL but its motor has modest torque and the QL seems to be gentle in its operation; the result is a rather nice, fluid and graceful sound. As always, generalisations are not helpful, but IMO high torque coupled with aggressive speed monitoring and correction is often a recipe for poor musical reproduction. I'd hazard a guess that your SL-5 has a relatively low-torque drive system.
This has hit the nail on the head for me and I think is the reason why I prefer my 'lowly' Techie SL-Q303 to the lightly modded 1210's I have owned; lower torque leading to a more gentle stop/go action on the QL = more fluid, musical presentation.
That might be it.
I also have an itch that for the high torque systems speed stabilization the QL should not be used at all. Instead it should be done otherwise as with mechanically well made eddy current brake.. :)
Careful that you don't all run away with a misconception about direct drive motors and torque. Firstly, high torque and tight speed control can give fantastic, highly musical, results in many modded 1210s and other highly regarded decks such as the Grand Prix Monaco. This is NOT the same thing as hunting in pre-QL decks. Secondly, I heard first hand what lowering the torque did in a 1210 (the infamous motor dynamics mod), and it didn't sound good.
Idlewithnodrive
16-12-2013, 15:17
Careful that you don't all run away with a misconception about direct drive motors and torque. Firstly, high torque and tight speed control can give fantastic, highly musical, results in many modded 1210s and other highly regarded decks such as the Grand Prix Monaco. This is NOT the same thing as hunting in pre-QL decks. Secondly, I heard first hand what lowering the torque did in a 1210 (the infamous motor dynamics mod), and it didn't sound good.
I'm not running away with any misconceptions at all Martin :), I'm just trying to fathom out why, IMO, my SL-Q303 sounds better than my 2 1210's did when everything says that it shouldn't really.
My 1210's were fairly lightly modded (decent feet, mat, standard PSU taken external), the Q303 is standard, other than feet and a mat but sounds more musical and free flowing. Same good timing and rock solid bass but more 'together'.
Lower torque which would indicate gentler QL effects might explain that.
chris@panteg
16-12-2013, 15:29
My QL1 linear tracker has Quartz lock but a much lower/gentler torque, and sounds relaxed and fluid, remember the 1200/1210 mk2 was aimed more at semi pro users and erm cough DJ's, the original 1200 mk1 being a purist hifi deck.
remember the 1200/1210 mk2 was aimed more at semi pro users and erm cough DJ's
It was launched in 1972 as a hi-fi deck. DJ use became popular only after it came onto the market.
chris@panteg
16-12-2013, 17:21
It was launched in 1972 as a hi-fi deck. DJ use became popular only after it came onto the market.
The Technics catalogue from that time does say ' semi pro. ' so you could say either or .
This has hit the nail on the head for me and I think is the reason why I prefer my 'lowly' Techie SL-Q303 to the lightly modded 1210's I have owned; lower torque leading to a more gentle stop/go action on the QL = more fluid, musical presentation.
Having heard Hugo's Kenwood, which I liked, there may be something in the torque thing. His KD-770D had a lovely languid and effortless musical presentation, which was rather enjoyable to listen to with the right music. However, IMO, the SL-1200/1200 is the more accurate T/T, especially when successfully modified.
Problem is, that accuracy is a double-edge sword, as get the modifications wrong, or use it with an uncomplimentary arm and/or cartridge, and you'll end up with, musically, a sub-optimal sound. Get it right, however, and the results are sublime, with the T/T simply showcasing the sonic talents of whatever arm and cartridge are used.
This was ably demonstrated yesterday in Martin's system (when I was down visiting) and we substituted his Shelter 5000 cartridge for my SPU, on the same T/T (mine), where one could instantly hear the highly addictive 'organic musicality' and 'rhythmic flow' of the latter, as opposed to the (ultimately) faster and more sonically incisive traits of the former, with the T/T simply acting as a neutral platform, allowing the respective qualities of both cartridges to shine through.
*That*, quite simply, is what is achieved with genuine accuracy - and some will gain from that, while others won't....
That's the thing with the Techy: it rewards you significantly for taking time to ensure that synergy is achieved. Trouble is, it also tells you in no uncertain terms when it hasn't! ;)
Marco.
The Technics catalogue from that time does say ' semi pro. ' so you could say either or .
Both are essentially the same T/T, though, Chris. The only difference is that the MKI didn't have a pitch slider (or any concessions to its design that made it effective for use by DJs). Let's also remember that the other area of 'professional' use for the Technics was in broadcasting studios and radio stations, where many thousands of SL1200/1210s were used by the BBC, amongst others, when the budget wouldn't stretch to an SP10....
However you cut it, the SL-1210/1210 was originally built as a high-quality audiophile turntable. The fact that it was later given some extras, which allowed it to be used by DJs and other professionals, matters not a jot to its fundamental 'DNA'.
Marco.
Indeed, Matsushita's 'Special Projects' division was a bit of a skunkworks, creating a direct drive motor and drive electronics - not to mention a rather special composite sandwich plinth - that must have made a loss for a long time before the economics of the quantities they made took over. Just looking at it makes me wonder how they ever sold them for such a reasonable price. The production line was supposedly quite labour intensive.
The Grand Wazoo
16-12-2013, 19:05
A point of order, if I may.
I don't believe even DJs had much of a use for a pitch slider until way after 1972.
Yeah, good point, Chris!
Marco.
The Skibo's will be arriving today, to say that I am excited would be a masterpiece in understatement... :yay:
Hope they do it for you, Dave. We will want all the detail and photos too :)
Of course, although it probably won't be today as we will have visitors shortly ;)
brian2957
18-12-2013, 11:51
:carrot::popcorn:
It is looking increasingly likely that the BTE passive pre won't be here until after Crimbo though. Anthony is having issues with delivery times of a couple of parts due to the usual Christmas post delays :eyebrows:
chris@panteg
18-12-2013, 12:31
Both are essentially the same T/T, though, Chris. The only difference is that the MKI didn't have a pitch slider (or any concessions to its design that made it effective for use by DJs). Let's also remember that the other area of 'professional' use for the Technics was in broadcasting studios and radio stations, where many thousands of SL1200/1210s were used by the BBC, amongst others, when the budget wouldn't stretch to an SP10....
However you cut it, the SL-1210/1210 was originally built as a high-quality audiophile turntable. The fact that it was later given some extras, which allowed it to be used by DJs and other professionals, matters not a jot to its fundamental 'DNA'.
Marco.
Yes of course , it was just a little joke about the DJ thing , its interesting to note that many cutting engineers use and still use an SL1200 mk2 to play 1st pressings and acetates .
Lol - I guess it can't be too bad then, eh? ;)
Marco.
chris@panteg
18-12-2013, 19:37
Lol - I guess it can't be too bad then, eh? ;)
Marco.
We'll it must be, I've had a frustrating time with mine I must admit, there must be something amiss somewhere?
I'm never going to be 100% certain I've set it properly , I'm looking at isolation at the moment, could it be this ?
After a couple of experiments , I think the technics is far more sensitive than I thought , this might be an expensive fix if so. maybe a thread on supports for the techie ?
Chris - how about a thread on what you've done and with a few photos too. Let us have a group think and offer a few suggestions. Then we can maybe see if one of us can get to you or you get to us so that we can diagnose it properly.
chris@panteg
18-12-2013, 20:23
Chris - how about a thread on what you've done and with a few photos too. Let us have a group think and offer a few suggestions. Then we can maybe see if one of us can get to you or you get to us so that we can diagnose it properly.
Thanks Martin, good idea and I'll have a think about it, I'll get there.
Back to Dave's own thread now I think.
The Skibo's turned up at Synsei Towers at 1:30 this afternoon and after a cuppa, myself and a friend, who happened to be visiting us today, set about getting them installed and positioned properly. This took around an hour and we have been listening to them ever since. Despite information to the contrary the Skibo's couldn't be more unlike the DM2's in presentation if they tried. Both designs do certain stuff very well indeed, however I will leave it there for now until I have lived with the Skibo's for a little while after which I will attempt an in-depth analysis. As a teaser, what I can say with confidence is that I now know the true meaning of the terms 'imaging' and 'depth'. These things are the audio equivalent of a full format Leica... :eek:
chris@panteg
19-12-2013, 11:46
Any pics Dave , maybe with a Leica ? If you have one kicking around .
Probably not until the weekend Chris as we are super busy at the moment dispatching stuff and sorting out all our Christmas responsibilities. When I get a spare moment (and some decent light) I will endeavour to locate my David Bailey persona... ;)
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/84bc779c-01df-442a-aefa-4501ca941a33.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/84bc779c-01df-442a-aefa-4501ca941a33.jpg.html)http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/56482bdd-6b19-4b47-b8f7-ca48fda1012f.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/56482bdd-6b19-4b47-b8f7-ca48fda1012f.jpg.html)
And here is the completed BTE Custom passive pre undergoing testing. Anthony says it is amazingly transparent which is exactly what I wanted to hear. Looking forward to plumbing it into my system when it arrives... :D
Dave, we share the same taste in CD players (Sony CDP XB930) and cameras (Leica). :)
Dave, we share the same taste in CD players (Sony CDP XB930) and cameras (Leica). :)
None of the kit in the photos is mine Barry it belongs to Anthony at BTE. He will be dispatching the pre on Thursday so I should have it by the weekend, can't wait... ;)
PhilofCas
31-12-2013, 21:28
Dave, as per recent PM's, keen to read your views on this in comparison to the Tis'.
Cheers,
Phil.
Watch this space Phil, as soon as I have it and it has settled in I will write a review. A very Happy New Year to you ;)
The BTE Custom pre has arrived, below are some shots of it straight out of the box...
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/2014-01-04093224.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/2014-01-04093224.jpg.html)http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/2014-01-04093253-1.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/2014-01-04093253-1.jpg.html)http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/2014-01-04093331-1.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/2014-01-04093331-1.jpg.html)http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/2014-01-04093503.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/2014-01-04093503.jpg.html)
My initial impressions of it are very, very good and everything I'd hoped for. The biggest surprise is at the bottom end which sounds more solid and extended than that of the Tizzie, which is no slouch itself in this department. The sheer transparency of this thing is to die for. I will post more when I have put some hours on it but for now Dave is a very happy bunny indeed... :D
Here's a further update on the BTE. I am currently listening to Mozart's Requiem (Raphael Fruhbeck de Burgos) which has always sounded pretty epic on my system using both the Classé DR5 and Tisbury pre-amps, the latter delivering a slightly more spacious rendition whilst the former offered more weight lower down the frequency range. Because of this the Tizzie offers a better sense of the scale of the work. The BTE on the other hand delivers all this and more plus the soundstage is immense in every respect. Excuse my clumsy description but with the BTE in play I have a much better sense of the individual elements of the orchestra and choir whereas both the DR5 and Tisbury present a homogeneous rendition of the work in comparison, does that make sense?
Another beneficial aspect of having the BTE in my system is that it has given the Skibo's a right royal kick up the arse. They were a little dull sounding with the Tizzie in place but have now come alive. Onwards and upwards... :D
I will post up some pics of the BTE in my system when light allows. It has been very cloudy and dull here today which has made it difficult to take decent photos... :eyebrows:
I am currently listening to Mozart's Requiem (Raphael Fruhbeck de Burgos) which has always sounded pretty epic on my system
Snap! It's a funny coincidence, Dave, but I mentioned the very same recording in my thread here (which amusingly has a similar title):
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?4630-Long-Road-to-Happiness-Update&p=514742#post514742
Snap! It's a funny coincidence, Dave, but I mentioned the very same recording in my thread here (which amusingly has a similar title):
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?4630-Long-Road-to-Happiness-Update&p=514742#post514742
T'is a wonderful recording, great minds and all that jazz... hehe
Since the Pre is passive I assume that in theory it should sound identical using it or connecting the source directly to the power amp?
Idle curiosity have you tried that for a comparison?
Don't do that unless the power amp has gain control, as you will be running at maximum volume!
Since the Pre is passive I assume that in theory it should sound identical using it or connecting the source directly to the power amp?
Idle curiosity have you tried that for a comparison?
Don't do that unless the power amp has gain control, as you will be running at maximum volume!
Perzactly Martin :)
Not all passive-pre's are equal Mark, their relative performance depends on the quality of the components used in the build which would account for why the BTE sounds so much better than the Tisbury ;)
PhilofCas
05-01-2014, 15:55
Dave,
Thanks for the initial feedback you've posted, sounds promising.
How much is the BTE?
Phil.
For the spec I asked for, £99.95. It would have been a little more had Anthony not had some Black Walnut offcuts knocking around his workshop. Even so, it would still be excellent value when compared to a Tisbury even if the Tizzie outperformed it, which it doesn't... ;)
EDIT: Price correction... :)
vinylspinner
05-01-2014, 16:39
Hi Dave,
Looks good value for money, any chance you can pm me the makers details?
Nigel
PhilofCas
05-01-2014, 17:19
Hi Dave,
Looks good value for money, any chance you can pm me the makers details?
Nigel
Or better still, post it here with the full spec of what you ordered :cheers:
For anyone who is interested, here is a link to BTE Designs website: http://bte-designs.weebly.com/
Incidentally Anthony also designs and builds his own valve amplifiers... ;)
Or better still, post it here with the full spec of what you ordered :cheers:
Just tell him what you want Phil and Anthony will build it for you. He has a backlog of work just now so you will need to be patient, turnaround time is around a month but that is small potatoes for a bespoke product ;)
PhilofCas
05-01-2014, 17:37
Be nice to hear what you got, seeing as you say it's excellent
Be nice to hear what you got, seeing as you say it's excellent
And it is ;)
I have asked Anthony to provide me with a complete parts list as I left some of the decisions to him, however I specifically requested that he install a stepped attenuator. Anthony employs an Alps Black Beauty in his own unit and he was quite taken aback by the improvement in SQ the stepped attenuator brought to the party. The unit he recommended for mine he sourced from China and it employs Dale resistors, it was also a lot cheaper than his Black Beauty. Silver wiring and solder is used throughout and I have no idea who manufactures the input selector or the phono sockets but they are quality items. The only minor issue I have is that the stepper is rather stiff to operate with the existing control knob so Anthony is sending out a larger diameter item at my request. I will post up the full parts list once I have it ;)
PhilofCas
05-01-2014, 18:14
Cheers Dave, spot on :)
I have asked Anthony to provide me with a complete parts list as I left some of the decisions to him, however I specifically requested that he install a stepped attenuator. Anthony employs an Alps Black Beauty in his own unit and he was quite taken aback by the improvement in SQ the stepped attenuator brought to the party. The unit he recommended for mine he sourced from China and it employs Dale resistors, it was also a lot cheaper than his Black Beauty. Silver wiring and solder is used throughout and I have no idea who manufactures the input selector or the phono sockets but they are quality items. The only minor issue I have is that the stepper is rather stiff to operate with the existing control knob so Anthony is sending out a larger diameter item at my request. I will post up the full parts list once I have it ;)
Nice one, Dave. Glad that your new passive is hitting the spot! Anthony seems like a good bloke, so why not invite him to join the forum? I'm sure he would get some good business here :)
Marco.
Nice one, Dave. Glad that your new passive is hitting the spot! Anthony seems like a good bloke, so why not invite him to join the forum? I'm sure he would get some good business here :)
Marco.
He is and I have :) I also discovered during a chat on the phone with him yesterday evening that he knows Nick (Gorham) and has worked with him on a couple of projects, so I am really hoping he does come and join us ;)
Covenant
07-01-2014, 20:08
My passive pre is now ordered Dave. Black finish with silver controls to match my headphone amp. Anthony suggests a 50k pot to suit my Croft amp and Touch. Looking forward to it.
Nice one Jerry, I hope you enjoy yours as much as I do mine ;)
Here is a pic of the BTE passive pre ensconced in my system and singing its little heart out. This is a fabulous bit of kit which performs so well one would be forgiven for thinking it cost many times more than it did. All that remains is for me to get my Techie, Paul Hynes SR3-21 ps and SME III sold so I can fix the DM2's :)
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/8211ce21-ac50-41cd-94c4-140253dc933b.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/8211ce21-ac50-41cd-94c4-140253dc933b.jpg.html)
wiicrackpot
08-01-2014, 14:05
Here ! here!!, that does look nice on the rack, hope Anthony still has some of that Black Walnut left, :cool: will see what he wants to do.
Here ! here!!
Where? Where?
Sorry, I couldn't resist ;)
Hmmm, and what do we have here then? :D
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/2014-01-11103735.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/2014-01-11103735.jpg.html)
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/2014-01-11103902.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/2014-01-11103902.jpg.html)
jandl100
11-01-2014, 11:42
Yay - Coles supertweets? - well done, Dave. :)
Be careful with them this time. ;)
Too bloody right Jerry, at 90 quid a pair I intend to handle this pair with kid gloves. How is Frank getting along with the Tizzie? ;)
walpurgis
11-01-2014, 11:55
Well done Dave. When are the DM2s likely to be up and running?
I will be taking my time with the refurb Geoff as I want to do it properly and I need to consider my health issues as well, so slow and steady is the order of the day. I'll also be documenting it all on a dedicated thread ;)
walpurgis
11-01-2014, 12:25
I'll also be documenting it all on a dedicated thread ;)
I'll look forward to that! :)
Nice one, Dave. Give us a good photo sequence of progress :)
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/d559da46-afeb-4c3b-85e6-eea6dc1012af.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/d559da46-afeb-4c3b-85e6-eea6dc1012af.jpg.html)http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/7d5facbf-85d3-48b6-a137-8de1e62b4445.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/7d5facbf-85d3-48b6-a137-8de1e62b4445.jpg.html)
A little while ago, while I was still running my Classé DR5 pre, I trialled a set of RFC Reference Pluto IC's which I installed between my Rega DAC and the DR5. For some inexplicable reason they didn't gel with my system at all, which I found rather odd as I also ran a set of RFC Neptune's between the DR5 and the Quad 306 which I was very happy with (still am incidentally :) ). Quite naturally I put this lack of synergy down to the sole difference between the two sets of IC's, the plugs. The Pluto's were returned from whence they came and I went back to using my original IC's, a set I bought from Gear City in Hong Kong a couple of years ago. Well, the Pluto's are back for another session as I have since discovered that I may have been running the DAC into the wrong input on the DR5, which would explain why they didn't perform to my expectations previously. I will explain:
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/a9069253-0505-4105-a33e-0520ceeb2df4.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/a9069253-0505-4105-a33e-0520ceeb2df4.jpg.html)
When I first set up the DR5 after buying it from Reid Malenfant (Mark) I chose to run the Beresford Caiman DAC I owned at the time into the CD input on the DR5 simply because I thought this would be the natural choice. Since than I have always used this input for my DAC's. I sold the DR5 recently to liberate some cash, some of which went towards the utterly superb BTE passive pre I run currently. To help oil the wheels of the sale I scoured the interweb for any information pertaining to the pre-amp that I could find, upon which I discovered a glowing and detailed review of the unit from 1988. I discovered quite a lot about my soon to be ex-DR5 which I had not been aware of, for example I did not know that the MC side of the phonostage could be dialled in for different cartridges, however it was not this which caught my attention, oh no. About half way through the piece the reviewer switched to his CD player to judge the units performance with the ubiquitous silver disk. It was in this paragraph that I learnt that the input I should have been running the DAC into was the one earmarked for a tuner :scratch: Why? From what I can gather from the reviewer, back when the DR5 first went on sale CD players could sometimes play havoc with a pre-amp when run into a flat input. Now this jogged my memory and I do remember reading about this in the hifi rags of the time. If I recall correctly it was something to do with the inputs lack of sufficient heardroom to cope with the highly dynamic output from a CD player. Most Jap manufacturers were wise to this and equipped their amps with a dedicated CD input which had higher than normal headroom. Classé on the other hand, just to be different, chose the tuner input for this task :scratch: Consequently, for my entire period of ownership I have been running my DAC's into the incorrect input on the DR5. Now, those with long memories may remember me complaining about some odd distortion I experienced while playing certain tracks on my system when I owned the Caiman, especially Some Riot from Elbow's Seldom Seen Kid. Initially I thought there was something wrong with the Coles supertweeters in my DM2's but I eventually decided that the Gator upgrade in my Caiman was to blame so I removed it and replaced it with a standard board. This did help but it didn't solve the issue entirely which is what prompted me to upgrade the DAC. It now seems as if the Caiman was not to blame at all... :eyebrows:
So, back to the Pluto's then: I swapped out my Gear City IC's earlier today and installed the Pluto's between the Rega and the BTE and lo and behold, THE MAGIC IS BACK!!! Brian mate, you won't be getting them back this time as they are most definitely keepers... :D I'm sure Paul@RFC will be delighted to read this too as he was just as mystified as I was that the Pluto's didn't perform well in my systems previous configuration... Now we know... ;)
brian2957
30-01-2014, 21:23
Nice one Dave . Glad it all came together in the end . The Reffc Plutos are indeed a very fine set of interconnects and Paul is very good to deal with.
Ever had the feeling that fate has it in for you? It has certainly seemed that way since Christmas as Jo and I have lumbered from one disaster to the next to the point that it has been the worst start to a year that I can remember. As a result a few things have had to be put on the back burner for a while, one of them being the refurbishment of our lovely DM2's. With much touching of wood and crossing of digits it would appear that the worst is now over and at last I can begin to concentrate on things other than our well-being and long term survival.
Throughout the past few weeks two things have kept our heads above water, our love for each other and the music, what more could anyone ask for? Soon I will begin work on the refurbishment once my head is in good order and frankly I am looking forward to getting stuck in to something which will have a positive outcome...
istari_knight
16-02-2014, 13:44
Glad to hear things are looking up for you Dave. :goodluck: with the project.
Glad to hear things are looking up for you Dave. :goodluck: with the project.
Thank you James ;)
How are things down in your neck of the woods fella as I hear it has been pretty rough down your way during the recent storms? It's been rough here too, we live in a three storey town house with a flat roof and I really thought we were going to lose it a couple of nights ago. We had gusts of wind exceeding 90mph at one point and the old roof was creaking and groaning like a torture victim on a rack... :eyebrows:
twickers
16-02-2014, 15:22
Dave, have you tried the your passive pre with your amptastic mini-t ( if you still have it?).
I'm looking to add a few more inputs to mine soon and looking for a good quality ( VFM ) pre. Not really sure about passive pre's and if their is any reason it wouldn't match.
No I haven't Paul but I will give it a go in a little while and get back to you ;)
istari_knight
16-02-2014, 16:53
Thank you James ;)
How are things down in your neck of the woods fella as I hear it has been pretty rough down your way during the recent storms? It's been rough here too, we live in a three storey town house with a flat roof and I really thought we were going to lose it a couple of nights ago. We had gusts of wind exceeding 90mph at one point and the old roof was creaking and groaning like a torture victim on a rack... :eyebrows:
Pretty scary laying there wondering if the roof's going to leave the house or a tree's gonna come through a window :eek:
Dave, have you tried the your passive pre with your amptastic mini-t ( if you still have it?).
I'm looking to add a few more inputs to mine soon and looking for a good quality ( VFM ) pre. Not really sure about passive pre's and if their is any reason it wouldn't match.
Well now, you have really given me some food for thought with this one Paul. First off, I've not hooked the Amptastic Mini-T up to my ART Skibo's before because I thought it would have a problem driving them.......I was very much mistaken :stalks: Admittedly at very high levels the Mini-T does struggle a bit but at what I would call a reasonable listening level, around 70db's, it is sounding quite sublime hooked up to the BTE, who'da thunk it? It may well be staying in my system for a bit longer, perhaps even for good, time will tell. Incidentally bass is epic and corset tight and the soundstage is as tall, wide and deep as ya like with pin-sharp imaging, I am liking this a lot... ;)
twickers
16-02-2014, 21:45
Who'd have thunk it eh? ;)
Good to know Dave. Cheers for checking.
Who'd have thunk it eh? ;)
Good to know Dave. Cheers for checking.
I've been listening with the Mini-T slotted into the system for a few hours and it hasn't missed a beat Paul, it would seem that the BTE/Mini-T combo really is quite special when hooked up to a decent and efficient pair of speakers. On a couple of occasions I'd convinced myself that the system sounded a little bass light with the T installed and then it'd go and surprise me on funkier material. I think this may be down to the surprising amount of grip the Mini-T exerts on the lower frequencies. I'm listening to Crosby & Nash's self-titled album at the moment and this is the best I've heard it to date... :eyebrows:
spotify:album:3lTMPNMmOqPMreAoEG2BwM
I admit to being a tad confused right now. How is it that such a tiny amplifier which produces not much more than ten watts per channel at best can sound so rich and dynamic, even at high volume levels? I had a few issues when driving the Mini-T with a Classé DR5, not least of which was distortion at highish levels and slightly anemic bass. None of this is apparent here and driving the Skibo's it continues to fill the room with clean, dynamic and rich soundscapes regardless. I am currently experiencing outstanding levels of performance from this combination and I am truly blown away by what I am hearing but am at a loss to explain it, not that I am complaining... ;)
I find that my Mini-T amp on my computer system is wonderful within its power envelope, but gets horrible very quickly if you push it into distortion. It only just goes loud enough into my Fostex speakers, so your Skibos must be quite efficient.
twickers
18-02-2014, 17:04
I admit to being a tad confused right now. How is it that such a tiny amplifier which produces not much more than ten watts per channel at best can sound so rich and dynamic, even at high volume levels? I had a few issues when driving the Mini-T with a Classé DR5, not least of which was distortion at highish levels and slightly anemic bass. None of this is apparent here and driving the Skibo's it continues to fill the room with clean, dynamic and rich soundscapes regardless. I am currently experiencing outstanding levels of performance from this combination and I am truly blown away by what I am hearing but am at a loss to explain it, not that I am complaining... ;)
Yep, there's definitely a boogie factor to the Mini-T. Within it's own limitations it's a cracking little amp for the money (plus I don't really have a lot of room for full sized kit at the moment) .
Regarding the BTE passive pre Dave, there is one on the BTE ebay site with upgrade options. In particular is the option for an alps blue velvet attenuator. Is it worth upgrading to this or better?
Yep, there's definitely a boogie factor to the Mini-T. Within it's own limitations it's a cracking little amp for the money (plus I don't really have a lot of room for full sized kit at the moment) .
Regarding the BTE passive pre Dave, there is one on the BTE ebay site with upgrade options. In particular is the option for an alps blue velvet attenuator. Is it worth upgrading to this or better?
Go for the Dale stepper Paul, not only does it lift the performance to a different level it is also a lot cheaper than the Blue Velvet pot. Have a word with Anthony via the ebay messaging system Paul, he will steer you in the right direction without breaking the bank I'm sure ;)
twickers
18-02-2014, 21:07
Thanks Dave.
Just noticed Jerry's (Covenant) thread where he mentions them and you also recommending them earlier today.:lol:
I find that my Mini-T amp on my computer system is wonderful within its power envelope, but gets horrible very quickly if you push it into distortion. It only just goes loud enough into my Fostex speakers, so your Skibos must be quite efficient.
Interesting, when l had my Mini-T into my Harbeths sounded amazing, l mean amazing, but playing it in to Audionote AN/J's with the added sensitivity sounded er not very good.:scratch:
jandl100
19-02-2014, 09:36
I'm still a HUGE fan of the Mini-T, and use it in my 2nd system all the time (Usher X719 standmounts).
I find that my Mini-T amp on my computer system is wonderful within its power envelope, but gets horrible very quickly if you push it into distortion. It only just goes loud enough into my Fostex speakers, so your Skibos must be quite efficient.
That's really weird, Martin.
In my Big Rig, with my 84dB/W multi-driver MBLs, the Mini-T doesn't run out of puff at all - even on crazy stuff like Eddy Louiss' Blues for Klook or The Buggles' Age of Plastic the walls flex very impressively.
I could happily live with the Mini-T as my final amp, if I had to. I've never heard it distort or run out of puff, and I play things Marco-Loud sometimes! :lol:
The Grand Wazoo
19-02-2014, 18:22
They just seem to gel fantastically with some speakers and not with others and there doesn't appear to be any logical pattern. This is why I suggested to Dave the other day that the great result he is getting may not be as a result of the pro/power combination he tried, but rather the matching of amp to speakers.
I could happily live with the Mini-T as my final amp, if I had to. I've never heard it distort or run out of puff, and I play things Marco-Loud sometimes! :lol:
Hehehehe... Only once you've visited me (wish you were closer), will you *truly* know what "Marco-loud" is - and trust me, it'll be an experience you won't forget in a hurry!!! :eek: ;)
The Buggles, eh - is that a guilty pleasure? If so, I wholly approve! :thumbsup:
Marco.
jandl100
21-02-2014, 08:33
Well, yeah, OK, maybe not quite Marco-Loud! :lol:
The Buggles a guilty pleasure? - no, I don't feel guilty about it at all! :D
Age of Plastic; one of the best pop albums ever, imo - both for the music and the sound quality. :thumbsup:
Great to listen to, and it sorts the men from the boys when it comes to hifi. :eyebrows:
Video Killed the Radio Star is one of my all-time fav 80s choons... I also have that album and agree that the sound quality (for a pop recording) is superb :) The 12" singles, released from the album, are even better!
If you're into that sort of stuff, check out Pop Musik, by M (and the album it comes from - the sound quality is astonishing!):
Avvh5H-EPWU
Btw, "Marco-loud", as heard at Scalford, is about 10-15db less than the "Marco-loud" I subject 'visiting victims' to at home! :D :eyebrows:
Marco.
In my Big Rig, with my 84dB/W multi-driver MBLs, the Mini-T doesn't run out of puff at all - even on crazy stuff like Eddy Louiss' Blues for Klook or The Buggles' Age of Plastic the walls flex very impressively.
I could happily live with the Mini-T as my final amp, if I had to. I've never heard it distort or run out of puff, and I play things Marco-Loud sometimes! :lol:
I can only surmise that the Skibo's present a really easy load to the Mini-T as it has not run out of puff driving them either, although it did when driving the DM2's. Bass response is tighter, weightier and on a par with that from the DM2's which wasn't the case driving the Skibo's with the Quad. Go figure...:scratch:
Chris, I did try running my CDP straight into the Mini-T and although the resulting sound was good there was some loss of fluidity and transparency without the BTE in circuit, anyone care to explain why this might be?
This is the sixth day the Amptastic Mini-T has been back in the system and I have no inclination to remove it and re-install the Quad 306. As fine an amp as the 306 is the Mini-T out-guns it in many crucial areas, not least of which are its imaging capabilities and in this respect it is outstanding. Likewise it throws out a three dimensional soundstage which is utterly believable, in fact I would describe its ability in this regard as truly engaging. The Mini-T also acquits itself well in the way it handles transients with absolutely no blurring of leading edges, for example the sound of a kick drum is a superbly natural event as is cymbal play, depending on the quality of the recording of course. Bass slam is exceptional where it exists in a recording and its midrange is as open and transparent as any I've heard from a quality valve amplifier. I think the ART Skibo's are playing a big part here as well and they appear to be a natural match for the Mini-T. This has left me in a bit of a quandary...
The plan was to refurbish the DM2's, re-install them on the end of the Quad then sell on the Skibo's to liberate some much needed cash. I know from experience that the DM2's sound lovely hung off the back of the Quad but not so hot running off the Mini-T, whereas the Skibo's sound divine with this amp, and then there's the aesthetics to factor in. In this regard the Skibo's win hands down for me, they are slim, beautifully finished and frankly a work of 'ART' (sic). Oh, what to do? :scratch: Whichever of the options I eventually settle for, either will offer me outstanding performance and I have Anthony and his superb BTE Designs passive pre-amp to thank for bringing this all into focus. I've not been in a position before where it matters not which choice I make, either way I will end up with a sublime sounding system and it is this which has thrown me... :lol:
brian2957
22-02-2014, 14:37
Good place to be Dave , but if you're anything like me you'll be a tinkerer :rolleyes:. Sometimes it's better to stop tinkering and enjoy what you've inadvertantly stumbled upon matey.
Well if you can't choose I guess there's 2 options
Either keep the cheapest and liberate the most cash
Or keep the best looking
If that happens to be a common answer even better
The Grand Wazoo
22-02-2014, 20:01
I can sniff a bi-amping adventure in the making!
I can sniff a bi-amping adventure in the making!
This is something else I have been considering Chris although it doesn't solve my cash flow problem. If I do choose to go down the bi-amping route then the Skibo's stay as the DM2's have only one set of speaker inputs which would rule them out of the game. I'd need to acquire some splitters to divide the feed from the pre into both amps and to keep things consistent the splitters would need to employ the same Furutech cablling used in the manufacture of the RFC Neptunes. Incidentally the Skibo's can be tri-amped which could make things even more interesting. Is it even possible to bi-amp using a passive-pre by the way? More food for thought... :eyebrows:
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