View Full Version : Prattlin' Dave's HiFi Rambles...
The Grand Wazoo
23-02-2014, 00:06
No problem with tri-amping. Shouldn't be any much of a worry with a passive pre either Dave.
Splitters needn't have any cable in them, me ol' mucker. Not if you don't want it.
If you do, then a simple box with one input and two (or three) outputs can be assembled and wired with whatsoever cable takes yer fancy.
'tis a simple thing to do!
But watch the loading of three amps on the passive control unit (I refuse to call them passive preamps as there is no amplification in them). Take the amp input impedance and divide by three, which should still be much higher than the value of the pot used. For instance, if the pot is 20k, then you need to see 50-100k on the output.
But watch the loading of three amps on the passive control unit (I refuse to call them passive preamps as there is no amplification in them). Take the amp input impedance and divide by three, which should still be much higher than the value of the pot used. For instance, if the pot is 20k, then you need to see 50-100k on the output.
It may not be necessary now Martin as I have the DM2's up and running again, see here (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?28821-B-amp-W-DM2-fettling&p=529041#post529041) (post #55). I'm a bit Pee'd off as my Weller soldering station packed up today. The base unit powers on but the iron doesn't heat up. It worked for long enough to desolder the old Coles' and then went on the fritz, luckily I have a spare iron but had to be careful as it is a 35w heavy duty jobbie with a well worn tip. Thankfully I haven't lost my touch even though it has been around 25 years since I last did any soldering... :eyebrows:
OMFG!!!! I have ignored all my creaking joints and those devilish Lumbago tones in my back to hook up the Mini-T and now everything is clear, crystal clear!!! Who said a T-Amp can't do bass? Jerry? Yes you Jerry, stand up me old mucker, that's a hundred lines for you old chap... :D We are not just talking improvements down in the underworld, no indeed, we are talking epic clarity throughout the frequency range and absolute image focus. There is a tangible three dimensional construct thrown right around the speakers, in front, behind, above... Yeah you've got it, and it's not only constrained between the speakers, it is flung out wide beyond and around them, this is bloody lovely. I am listening to the Bullitt OST just now and the entire orchestra is somehow performing on stage just for me, and I'm sitting in the best seat in the house... :D
The decision has been made and the delightful ART Skibo's will be leaving us for pastures new, for in this system and in this room the B&W DM2's perform substantially better. I will be very sorry to see the Skibo's go as they really are very beautiful to look at however they need far more room to breath than I can offer them. It will be a wrench but SQ trumps aesthetics every time. I shall now concentrate on bringing the DM2's up to scratch withthe first step in this direction being the application acoustic felt to the baffles around the tweeters to improve imaging. I'd still like to have them rewired with the Van Damme cable I bought recently and also replace the binding posts, however I think I am going to find someone to do this work for me as I am really not confident enough to do it myself.
brian2957
26-02-2014, 12:21
Synergy mate . Cant whack it . Are you still using the passive pre with the t amp Dave .
Sent from my GT-S5830 using Tapatalk 2
I am Brian and it is staying in the system for now. Not sure what I am going to do with the Quad as yet, maybe I'll sell it to fund further explorations into the realm of digital amplification as my system and listening preferences clearly suit a wander down this road. Even though the Mini-T isn't struggling to drive the DM2's (it is currently blasting out Nirvana's Nevermind very convincingly) I would prefer a little more headroom. Incidentally the ear pads arrived this morning and I have fitted them to the 668B's, what a difference in comfort. Again, thanks so much Brian ;)
ATB
Dave...
So, I feel a little more detail is necessary to help explain my recent choices and 'detail' is the keyword here, or more accurately, micro-detail. As well as the improvements I have already written about there has been a marked increase in system resolution with bucket loads of micro-detail now apparent, such as the sound of a flautists breath as the instrument is played, the myriad of subtle harmonics which emanate from a cymbal when it is struck, the ethereal decay of the notes from a Steinway grand piano... Need I go on? :)
I finally got around to servicing my Pioneer DV737 today and for the first time since I bought it I have been able to use it properly in the system. Despite it's chunky case and decent electronics I was quite shocked at how flimsy the mech is and as such it was the arbiter of many of the issues I'd been experiencing with it. Having said that I must say it is sounding pretty good just now playing the Darwin Project album which was recorded live at the Shrewsbury Folk Festival back in 2009. If you are into folk music I can recommend this album, it is a wonderful recording of an excellent collection of songs from the likes of Rachel Mcshane, Emily Wood, Krista Detor and Chris Wood amongst others ;)
jandl100
01-03-2014, 09:46
OMFG!!!! I have ignored all my creaking joints and those devilish Lumbago tones in my back to hook up the Mini-T and now everything is clear, crystal clear!!! Who said a T-Amp can't do bass? Jerry? Yes you Jerry, stand up me old mucker, that's a hundred lines for you old chap... :D
What? me? NEVER! -- Mini-T bass is clean, taut, vibrant. :thumbsup: - but can be a bit lean.
But you wait 'til you hear the new Amptastic Mini-1 (http://hifipig.com/amptastic-mini-1-amplifier/), Dave. :eyebrows: - bass is more powerful and extended with much more dynamic ease and headroom. Fabulous.
What? me? NEVER! -- Mini-T bass is clean, taut, vibrant. :thumbsup: - but can be a bit lean.
But you wait 'til you hear the new Amptastic Mini-1 (http://hifipig.com/amptastic-mini-1-amplifier/), Dave. :eyebrows: - bass is more powerful and extended with much more dynamic ease and headroom. Fabulous.
I was messing with you Jerry :D I'll tell you what though dude, the T-amp is currently out-bass'ing the Quad which is a first in my system, so if the Mini One improves on this whilst keeping the Mini-T's other attributes then I am definitely interested ;)
Mr Kipling
01-03-2014, 10:24
And all this from a chip amp. Must admit the T-amp phenomena passed me by. I remember in the late '80s Jimmy Hughes reviewed a boutique unknown power amp which he was reasonably happy with. After the review he opened it up to find a couple of TDA 2020s I think which used to be commonly used in car audio supported by high quality capacitors and resistors. I think this would have been the very first "T-amp".
I've just noticed that one of the new Coles tweeters has stopped working in the DM2's, they are trying my patience...
I have been playing this evening to take my mind of that dastardly broken Coles...
Brummy10, otherwise known as Kevin, popped round late this afternoon to pay for and pick up the DV737. As he is not running a DAC there was not a lot of point me demonstrating the Pioneer through the Rega therefore I hooked it up via its analogue outputs straight into the corresponding inputs on the Mini-T and bless its soul it didn't sound half bad, in fact it performed very well indeed with disk one of Janis Ian's fabulous live album, Working Without A Net, loaded up. Unfortunately soon after Kevin arrived our little Jack Russell, Pepper, uncharacteristically decided to take a 'Jimmy Riddle' on our bed (the system resides in our bedroom) right in the spot where I'd invited Kevin to sit, which was a mite embarrassing for all concerned,, otherwise I am sure he would have stayed a bit longer than he did. Fortunately we spotted it in time to prevent Kevin getting a wet botty :lol:
Anyway, it was during this wee demo that I hatched my plot to play around a bit with the system once Kevin had left and so I did. About a week ago whilst waxing lyrical about the superb BTE passive, Chris (The Grand Wazoo) suggested I hook my Arcam CDP directly to the Mini-T via its analogue outputs as he was interested to know what effect, if any, the BTE was having in the system. I obliged his request and frankly was a little unimpressed with the result. It's not that the resulting sound was bad, just that bass was a little overblown and strangely there was a slight loss of transparency. An idea formed today whilst Kevin was here to try running the Rega directly into the Mini-T just for curiosities sake with a very interesting outcome.
Even with a dud supertweeter in one of the DM2's it would appear that a freak group of audiophile pixies have invaded the entire system and changed it... for the better. I am really crap at describing what something sounds like and use way too many clichés when I try, but honestly folks what has resulted from this simple shift around is quite startling in its quality and 'wholesomeness'. Clichés be damned, once I've lived with this configuration for a few days I will attempt to report back with some coherent ramblings, for now though I need to keep listening to this amazing musical spectacular. Oh, and a short message to the Amptastic team; how the bloody hell did you manage to cram all this litheness and quality into such a teeny tiny box? Oh and one more thing guys, 12 o'clock on the dial almost blows the damn doors off, what an amazing thing.... :stalks:
The Grand Wazoo
04-03-2014, 19:48
it would appear that a freak group of audiophile pixies have invaded the entire system and changed it... for the better
Inter....esting. Vary, vary inter....estink!
Inter....esting. Vary, vary inter....estink!
:rfl:
The Grand Wazoo
04-03-2014, 20:02
.....but alzo stooopid!
5Qf6Sv3A9zs
So, now I have a dead tweeter in the lefthand Skibo too. To say I am mightily f*cked off would be a master of understatement. I think I'm just going to jack it all in and buy a bloody iPod... Common denominator? The Mini-T... :steam:
jandl100
05-03-2014, 17:24
Oh poo. :(
I've never heard this problem with any other Mini-T user, and there are lots here and on the Wigwam forum - another common denominator is a certain person in control of the volume level.
Or have you been changing cables without turning off the amp?
Or .... well, lots of things could be happening here .... best to be sure before you start blaming any one particular product or component, Dave.
I've seen a few measurement reports on the MiniT and, allegedly, they don't appear to meet their rated output and when driven hard into or near clipping produce voltage spikes at HF across their o/p terminals.
No mad headbanging sessions, just sensible levels here. Amp turned off whenever switching speakers so not that either. They were working perfectly the last time they were hooked up as were the DM2's.. Tweeters failed on same side with both sets of speakers plus both tweeters failed with the T-Amp in circuit. Sounds pretty convincing to me.
I have no other speakers to fall back on now so I'm screwed as to buy another pair one of these pairs would need to go, thoroughly pi**ed off now. If anyone wants to put the Mini-T on a meter to test it I'd be happy to ship it to you as I would like to determine for sure what has caused this before I take it any further. I do not own a meter so can't do it myself...
You'd need an oscilloscope, not a meter Dave. Over-running an amp into clipping is a sure tweeter blower and the Mini-T has the potential to do damage in that mode.
istari_knight
05-03-2014, 17:50
Damn, that is disheartening to put it mildly :(
Tripath amps have high frequency oscillation on the output but they have a built in low pass filter to keep it contained. My first thought was clipping.
On the AV forum a guy measured the o/p as 17v Pk-Pk or 6v RMS, thats just 9w into 4 ohm. The insidious bit is the 'clipping' puts out voltage spikes in the mhz region. I'm guessing this is what took the tweeters out...
You'd need an oscilloscope, not a meter Dave. Over-running an amp into clipping is a sure tweeter blower and the Mini-T has the potential to do damage in that mode.
I know Martin except I was not over-running it mate, sort of impossible in this tiny room anyway unless you are a raving masochist and besides, I am not an idiot. After my faux pas with the TT earth lead I now religiously check what I am doing at every stage and then get Jo to double check everything. Nope, I am 99% certain that the likely cause is a fault which has developed in the Mini-T. Think back for a moment, I ran the Mini-T as my main amp for months early last year without any issues at all. My musical tastes have not changed nor have I changed the levels at which I listen, which are best described as low to moderate as I live in a mid-terraced house so have neighbours on either side to consider. Then of course you have the fact that the lefthand tweeters of two entirely different marques and models of speaker, both of which are easy to drive and efficient, have failed in the space of a couple of days when hooked up to the same amplifier. I know where my money lies...
istari_knight
05-03-2014, 18:07
On the AV forum a guy measured the o/p as 17v Pk-Pk or 6v RMS, thats just 9w into 4 ohm. The insidious bit is the 'clipping' puts out voltage spikes in the mhz region. I'm guessing this is what took the tweeters out...
Neal, you just jogged my memory so I had to do a search as I do recall reading the same thing... here we are: http://www.avforums.com/threads/mini-t-2020-20w-class-t-amplifier.1398037/page-2#post-17004478
Initial oscilloscope tests show the 20 W per channel claim to be “optimistic”.
In fact the measured maximum usable voltage before clipping is about 6 V rms (at 1 kHz) which corresponds to 9 W with a 4 Ω load and 4.5 W with an 8 Ω load.
(and 2.4 W with a 15 Ω load. I still have a couple of 15 Ω loudspeakers)
There is a continuous “signal” of about 70 mV rms in the region of 940 kHz appearing across the amplifier’s loudspeaker-output terminals. This may cause interference with medium wave radio reception in the vicinity of this amplifier. When the amplifier is driven into clipping, a burst of the “940 kHz” at high level (several volts peak to peak) occurs at the positive and negative peaks of the audio waveform.
A couple of other measurements may be of interest:
Input impedance: 21 kΩ
Maximum voltage gain: 14 (22.9 dB)
Investigation of the Amptastic Mini T amplifier frequency response has revealed a possible problem.
The voltage gain (with the gain control knob fully clockwise) is substantially constant at 14 from 20 Hz to 10 kHz.
However above 20 kHz the voltage gain rises rapidly to reach a peak of 307 (49.7 dB) at 67 kHz.
Square wave testing confirms this, showing severe “ringing” at 67 kHz.
While input frequencies much above 20 kHz will probably not be experienced in normal audio use, it is nevertheless a cause for concern.
The pulse width modulation technique used by the Mini-T amplifier throws up a lot of RF at the loudspeaker output terminals. A passive 1 kHz low-pass filter at the input to the volt-meter allows the 1 kHz audio test signal level to be measured despite the large amount of RF at the Mini-T ‘speaker outputs.
A built in 20 kHz low-pass filter within the amplifier itself, to remove the RF, would be very desirable. However it is understandable that this is not provided on such an inexpensive unit. Such a filter would obviously have to be passive and would cost more and take up more space than the entire amplifier does at present.
Lets clarify something shall we, I am not blaming every Mini-T amp, just this one. We have gone back over everything we've done today. No procedures were abused neither did we wang the volume up. Listening levels have been low enough all day for us to hold a normal conversation without having to raise our voices. Not sure why I am having to justify myself or my actions to be honest, I had to endure the same when the Bushmaster I was planning to buy back in March of last year developed a fault, it wasn't pleasant then and it certainly isn't now. As can be plainly seen if one rewinds back through this thread, if I do something silly resulting in some sort of carnage I hold my hands up to it, this is not the case here...
Moving on, does anyone happen to know what make and model of tweeter is used in the Skibos so I can order a new one?
Neal, you just jogged my memory so I had to do a search as I do recall reading the same thing... here we are: http://www.avforums.com/threads/mini-t-2020-20w-class-t-amplifier.1398037/page-2#post-17004478
Thats the one. Worrying isn't it.
Dave, why so defensive, no one is accusing you of anything. The point is at just 4.5w into 8 ohms if your 'speakers are not that efficient, even at low levels you could possibly drive the MiniT into clipping on peaks.
Thats the one. Worrying isn't it.
Dave, why so defensive, no one is accusing you of anything. The point is at just 4.5w into 8 ohms if your 'speakers are not that efficient, even at low levels you could possibly drive the MiniT into clipping on peaks.
I accept that Neal and if it wasn't for the fact the Mini-T happily drove the DM2's without incident for nearly five months I would be inclined to agree with you. Where it gets somewhat fishy is that within forty eight hours I've lost tweeters on the left side from two completely different pairs of speakers both of which were being driven by the same amp. Now, unless I regularly listen to music which is biased towards the left channel, which I don't btw, then one could reasonably expect that the tweeters on either side of the divide would be subject to the same stresses under abnormal operating conditions. Incidentally the DM2's are rated at 6ohms and sensitivity is 89db's, the Skibo's are also rated at 6ohms but fare slightly better in sensitivity at 90db's. Using either pair of speakers, moving the volume control past the 10 0'clock position results in things becoming uncomfortably loud in this room, and set at 12 o'clock one would need to shout to make oneself heard in here. I need to stress that at the time of both failures the Mini-T was being used as a standalone amp driven via my Rega DAC, the BTE Passive pre was not in circuit, if that matters...
jandl100
06-03-2014, 07:26
If it is the Mini-T it sounds like a one-off fault as I've not heard of any other tweeter failures - even that linked report doesn't mention any damage actually caused, does it?
Why not contact Amptastic and ask them to check the amp out? :thumbsup:
If it is the Mini-T it sounds like a one-off fault as I've not heard of any other tweeter failures - even that linked report doesn't mention any damage actually caused, does it?
Why not contact Amptastic and ask them to check the amp out? :thumbsup:
Going to get onto them later Jerry so watch this space. I certainly didn't intend this to turn into an Amptastic bashing session as there are way too many of these things out there doing such an excellent job with so many different speakers. My example has obviously developed a fault in all the diodes down its lefthand side so from now I am christening it, Marvin The Paranoid Android... :)
GOOD NEWS!!! He says in his best impression of TG's James May. No, I haven't gone and bought a Dacia Sandero but I have been in contact with ART about the sick Skibo tweeter. Those excellent bods up in Troon are sending me two tweeters of the Peerless persuasion FOC for my sins, now that's what I call service above and beyond the call of duty, well done chaps... :respect:
istari_knight
06-03-2014, 12:22
Well done ART ! :clap:
Well done ART ! :clap:
It gets better, I told them how it had happened and also that I'd only recently acquired them via a private sale, the fact that I am not the original purchaser was a total non-issue... :)
istari_knight
06-03-2014, 12:42
Thats fantastic service... I can't see B&W being so accommodating what with the DM2's not being quite current models :D
Thats fantastic service... I can't see B&W being so accommodating what with the DM2's not being quite current models :D
Now that sounds like a challenge worth taking on, what do you think my chances would be? :lol:
Just a thought but is it possible that the common denominator in the failures was a source component? A bit of rough distortion from the source, excaberated by the low power/lack of filter of the mini T could be the culprit?
Just a thought but is it possible that the common denominator in the failures was a source component? A bit of rough distortion from the source, excaberated by the low power/lack of filter of the mini T could be the culprit?
The sources would be my PC and a Pioneer DV737 Martin. The Pioneer was running directly into the T amp when the Coles unit on the DM2 failed and I was playing a file on my PC via a Rega DAC which itself was hooked up to the T amp when the Skibo tweeter failed. Again, it was the tweeters in the relevant speakers that were hooked up to the left channel which failed on both occasions so I am 99% certain the fault lies in the T amp. One thing I am absolutely certain of is that on both occasions the BTE passive was not a factor as it was out of circuit. Also, both tweeters failed whilst I was listening to music which removes any cackhanded handling on my part from the equation.
Ah well it was just a thought.
You know in almost thirty years of cocking about with hi-fi I have never once blown a tweeter or damaged any drive unit. Not that it is any consolation to you ;) - I guess I have just been really lucky.
Ah well it was just a thought.
You know in almost thirty years of cocking about with hi-fi I have never once blown a tweeter or damaged any drive unit. Not that it is any consolation to you ;) - I guess I have just been really lucky.
It's a first for me too Martin so to have two fail on two different systems and both on the left channel and within 48hrs of each other kinda nails it for me... ;)
Good results on the replacements David, fantastic service!
Good results on the replacements David, fantastic service!
It's certainly warmed the cockles of my heart as I was in a very dark place yesterday over this. Incidentally, does anyone have a contact number for Amptastic?
jandl100
06-03-2014, 14:17
Hey, well done Dave - some good news for a change! :thumbsup:
Here's a Top Tip .... don't use that Mini-T til it's been checked out. ;)
:lol:
Okay, lots of news since my last post:
The Mini-T is hunky dory. It would seem that the Coles unit that failed did so in isolation and not due to any fault with this amp, and the tweeter which apparently failed in the Skibo's didn't. Bit embarrassing this so I'm just going to bite the bullet and say the issue was down to me. I'd rather not go into details but suffice it to say that the Skibo's are now working perfectly again thanks to a lot of assistance from Derek at ART speakers. In my defence the input arrangement on the back of the Skibo's is somewhat more complicated than on your average pair of squawk boxes and basically I got it all wrong, he said hanging his head in shame :o The faulty Coles is now with Falcon Acoustics and will be taking a trip with Jerry on Monday down to Coles factory where they will be testing it. Fingers crossed that they sanction a replacement... :eyebrows:
And now some better news:
Over the weekend I took delivery of a JVC AX-A3 integrated amp and a pair of Mission 760i speakers from Kember (Peter) and Istari Knight (James) respectively. The JVC was a freebie and James took pity on me and my apparent mass tweeter malfunction plight and sent the Missions as a stop gap with an option to purchase sometime down the road. I am very grateful to the both of you and yet again here is another demonstration of the extraordinary quality and generosity of the community here on AoS.
Before dispatching the JVC Peter gave me a heads up that the volume control was a bit crackly and thus would need to be treated with some contact cleaner (easy job :)), so once in my possession off came the top so I could give it a thorough spring clean.
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/Before.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/Before.jpg.html)
As you can no doubt see from the photo it was a wee bit dusty in there so out came a soft-bristled paint brush and the vacuum cleaner and before long things were looking much better...
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/After.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/After.jpg.html)
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/Elnacaps.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/Elnacaps.jpg.html)http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/Stain.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/Stain.jpg.html)
One small area of concern is a stain on the circuit board around the base of one of the Elna 10000mf caps... :eyebrows:
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/JVCAX-A3integratedamp.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/JVCAX-A3integratedamp.jpg.html)
And here she is after a thorough clean, on test and hooked up to the Missions. Although I can find no info on this amp anywhere on the net it is more than comfortable driving the wee Missions and the combo was sounding very good even though both 760i's were sitting next to each other.. Playing Lossless files from my phone via Winamp and connected via a quality Belkin lead (3.5mm jack to twin phono) to the CD input I am mighty pleased with the quality and 'oomph' this combo produces. JVC used some quality components in this build plus a hefty trafo and PS so consequently it is quite a weighty beast, plus I really like the layout and simplicity of the facia. The controls and switches are also of good quality and feel smooth and robust in operation. The bronze finish is very attractive and because the enclosure isn't standard, being only around half the depth of your average Jap amp enclosure, it should sit neatly on the worktop in the kitchen without taking up too much space.
In conclusion the JVC and the Missions are a fab match delivering a ballsy sound guaranteed to get your feet tapping with suitable material and yet they do subtlety too, which was superbly apparent when I played Cassandra Wilson's, Another Country which sounded lovely... :)
One of my DM2's appears to be sick :( The news from FA is that the faulty Coles is working just fine. Either I am going to have to get down to some nitty gritty or give the offending article to someone who knows what they are doing. I'd prefer the latter, especially if it should turn out to be a crossover fault... :eyebrows:
Time to rebuild both crossovers, maybe, Dave? The trouble is that if you replace, say, a blown cap in just one channel with a new one it'll sound unbalanced.
I know Martin. The problem I have is that I can't afford to get these fixed and I'm not confident enough in my own abilities to carry out the work myself, plus even if I was I'd need to buy the equipment to do the job, which brings us back to square one. This is an expense I really can't justify when there are far more important things which need to be paid for. Nope, I think it is time to call it a day and let the DM2's go to someone who can afford to bring them up to scratch. Likewise I have a couple of items in my possession which have been kindly loaned to me on the proviso that I pay for them when I have the cash. Well, that's not looking likely for the foreseeable so I shall be returning them soon to their respective owners. I'm very grateful to both Brian and James for their kindness however I need to get realistic. The point is that even without the DM2's and the other bits and bobs, I have a system which works and works well so it is high time for me to acknowledge that and stop over-reaching... :eyebrows:
istari_knight
17-03-2014, 15:56
The point is that even without the DM2's and the other bits and bobs, I have a system which works and works well so it is high time for me to acknowledge that and stop over-reaching... :eyebrows:
Thats the silver lining right there. Letting yourself appreciate what you have can be difficult in this "hobby" what with so many choices & variables.
Firebottle
18-03-2014, 08:01
As fine an amp as the 306 is the Mini-T out-guns it in many crucial areas, not least of which are its imaging capabilities and in this respect it is outstanding....... This has left me in a bit of a quandary...
Hi Dave,
I have been following this thread with great interest, partly because I also have a 306 in my 'arsenal'.
Have you made any mods to it, there is a train of thought that the components forming the bridge that balances the current dumping is a little out.
The tweak only involves changing two resistors per channel.
I have also reduced the gain (one resistor per channel) to make the volume control less cramped at the bottom end abd give more input headroom.
:cool: Alan
As per Alan's post plus I'd be a little careful about long term use of the mini-T as whether you listen at low-ish volumes or not, extended use when the thing may be clipping with just a handful of watts demanded could be a recipe for more long term problems? Personally, I wouldn't put one upstream of any speakers that I valued (just my personal opinion)
Hi Dave,
I have been following this thread with great interest, partly because I also have a 306 in my 'arsenal'.
Have you made any mods to it, there is a train of thought that the components forming the bridge that balances the current dumping is a little out.
The tweak only involves changing two resistors per channel.
I have also reduced the gain (one resistor per channel) to make the volume control less cramped at the bottom end abd give more input headroom.
:cool: Alan
To be honest Alan I would prefer to have the 306 in the system but as it stands the Mini-T delivers a more open and dynamic presentation, especially via the Skibo's. With the DM2's in situ the difference between the two amps is less marked with both having their strengths and weaknesses. So far I have not detected any signs of clipping with the Mini-T in play but then I seldom get the chance to really rag the system these days.
As far as I am aware this 306 is unmodified although it has been recapped within the last eighteen months. What sort of improvements would be gained from implementing the mods you mention?
As per Alan's post plus I'd be a little careful about long term use of the mini-T as whether you listen at low-ish volumes or not, extended use when the thing may be clipping with just a handful of watts demanded could be a recipe for more long term problems? Personally, I wouldn't put one upstream of any speakers that I valued (just my personal opinion)
No one could doubt that I wear my heart on my sleeve when it comes to audio and if something goes wrong I will post it here, however occasionally my frustrations get the better of me and sometimes my posts can be a little cringe-worthy as a result, however this is born of my desire to achieve a good, clean presentation. I achieved this recently by introducing a BTE passive-pre, a set of RFC Pluto IC's and a set of Talk 3 speaker cables into the existing system. As a consequence, and with the DM2's in play, these three introductions really allowed the system to breath resulting in a wonderfully dynamic and effortless sound, and now the DM2's are out of action I find myself missing this a lot. Introducing the Skibo's into a system which I have so carefully optimised to work well with the DM2's has left the former at somewhat of a disadvantage. The Mini-T goes some way towards redressing the balance however the marriage has not been an entirely successful one. I could live with it but on the current evidence I suspect I will always hanker after what once was hence my frustration at this latest turn of events...
Firebottle
18-03-2014, 20:41
Can't really say what improvements sonicaly would be achieved, I haven't made a direct comparison of before and after.
Technically with the feed forward error balance 'correct' (the way a current dumper achieves its performance with slow output drivers), the residual distortion should be reduced.
It might be interesting to include a switch to toggle between Quad original resistor values and the supposedly 'corrected' feedback bridge values.
It would be very easy to do.
:cool: Alan
Can't really say what improvements sonicaly would be achieved, I haven't made a direct comparison of before and after.
Technically with the feed forward error balance 'correct' (the way a current dumper achieves its performance with slow output drivers), the residual distortion should be reduced.
It might be interesting to include a switch to toggle between Quad original resistor values and the supposedly 'corrected' feedback bridge values.
It would be very easy to do.
:cool: Alan
Could I trouble you for a photo of the area on the board where the resistors sit please Alan? No circuit diagrams please as I can't read them, sorry :eyebrows:
istari_knight
19-03-2014, 21:14
Isn't the 306 "phase inverting" ?
Isn't the 306 "phase inverting" ?
I believe it is... ;)
The Grand Wazoo
19-03-2014, 23:22
Dave overcomes that by listening while standing on his head.
Dave overcomes that by listening while standing on his head.
:rfl:
Firebottle
20-03-2014, 17:20
Hi Dave, I haven't got the 306 here at the moment so I've doctored a stock image of the 306 board.
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/306board.png
Within the two circles there are one or two 22 ohm resistors, that's Red, Red, Black with either Gold or Red 4th band.
The modification involves increasing the value of this arm of the balancing bridge.
As fitted it is 22 + 22 ohms, the suggested is a total of 57 ohms.
Simplest way to try it is to lift one end of a 22 ohm resistor, wire a 12 ohm in series with it with a switch wired across the 12 ohm so that it can be switched in and out of circuit. This will give 56 ohms which will be near enough.
Do this for both channel of course, so a two pole switch is needed.
:cool: Alan
Hi Dave, I haven't got the 306 here at the moment so I've doctored a stock image of the 306 board.
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/306board.png
Within the two circles there are one or two 22 ohm resistors, that's Red, Red, Black with either Gold or Red 4th band.
The modification involves increasing the value of this arm of the balancing bridge.
As fitted it is 22 + 22 ohms, the suggested is a total of 57 ohms.
Simplest way to try it is to lift one end of a 22 ohm resistor, wire a 12 ohm in series with it with a switch wired across the 12 ohm so that it can be switched in and out of circuit. This will give 56 ohms which will be near enough.
Do this for both channel of course, so a two pole switch is needed.
:cool: Alan
Thanks Alan ;)
Whilst rummaging through my odds and sods box today I came across this...
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/RCAYadapter.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/RCAYadapter.jpg.html)
...and subsequently an idea began to take form (yes, it does happen occasionally :D). A partner for this Y adapter is now on order, I wonder if you can guess what I have in mind? ;)
so you can switch between mod/un mod?
Erm, nope, bit simpler than that. Think amplification ;)
istari_knight
29-03-2014, 17:46
bi-amp ?
bi-amp ?
Hole in one :D
I am going to try driving the bass bins of the Skibo's with the 306 whilst utilising the Mini-T for the mids and tweeters, could be an interesting experiment. I will need to insulate the ends of the fly leads which exit the bass bins otherwise if the ends touch I could lose the 306... :rolleyes:
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/9aa0d80b-4a7d-4fea-b0e2-8c456077399d.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/9aa0d80b-4a7d-4fea-b0e2-8c456077399d.jpg.html)
realysm42
02-04-2014, 20:50
Lol you love a little gamble don't you!
The Grand Wazoo
02-04-2014, 21:19
Are the two amps of similar voltage gain Dave? If not, you might be having to set and reset the volume knob on the Mini-T every time you change the pre-amp setting in order to keep things in balance.
Are the two amps of similar voltage gain Dave? If not, you might be having to set and reset the volume knob on the Mini-T every time you change the pre-amp setting in order to keep things in balance.
I have no idea Chris. I have it set up with the 306 driving the woofers and mids and the Mini-T driving the tweeters and all seems okay. There is some serious bass clout with this configuration however some of the delicacy has gone walkies. I am running Talk 3 cables from the Quad and Belkin cables from the Mini-T into the Skibo's which probably isn't ideal. Basically this was only ever meant to be an experiment to demonstrate what benefits might be gained from bi-amping with what I have to hand, it was never intended to be permanent. I'd like to try this with two Mini-T's actually because one alone gets the Skibo's really pumping so two should give some extra headroom ;)
Unfortunately my passive pre has developed a wee issue therefore it will be winging its way back to Anthony soon. It's nothing major though, being no more than an unforeseen design issue related to the installation of the volume control in the bespoke casework of this particular unit. Anthony has said he will be happy to sort it for me though so all's good. It will mean having to rely solely on the Mini-T for a while therefore I will be restricted to digital only for the duration, which is no hardship tbh as most of my listening is done via the PC or CDP ;)
Well, I've played my last record for a little while as I am getting ready to remove the BTE from the system so I can pack it up for shipping to Anthony. By golly Journey To The Centre Of The Earth sounds great on the SL5 ;)
brian2957
03-04-2014, 20:09
You selling the BTE Dave ?
You selling the BTE Dave ?
Nah mate it's developed a wee issue, see post 817 ;)
brian2957
03-04-2014, 21:26
AH , seen it mate . I would have been surprised if you had . For some strange reason this little BTE passive seems to have made a significant improvement to the SQ of my Bantam Gold . I'm still evaluating this unnusual partnership however there is a strong possibility that the BTE will be staying put . Don't ask me to explain it because I cant . I can only pass on what I'm hearing. Seems like one of those situations where something shouldn't work but for some inexplicable reason does ( and really well at that )
AH , seen it mate . I would have been surprised if you had . For some strange reason this little BTE passive seems to have made a significant improvement to the SQ of my Bantam Gold . I'm still evaluating this unnusual partnership however there is a strong possibility that the BTE will be staying put . Don't ask me to explain it because I cant . I can only pass on what I'm hearing. Seems like one of those situations where something shouldn't work but for some inexplicable reason does ( and really well at that )
That is exactly what I found with the Amptastic Mini-T Brian, I've no idea why it works but it just does and in the case of the Skibo's it works particularly well. I'd like to get hold of another Mini-T to hear what the Skibo's sound like bi-amped with these because I have a sneaky suspicion the result will be very good indeed, maybe even good enough for me to consider keeping them ;)
jandl100
05-04-2014, 06:28
Well, so Brian hears an improvement using a BTE passive pre ahead of a (different) integrated amp .... so it's not just Dave going potty after all! :eyebrows:
Does this make technical sense to anyone? I've heard an active pre making an improvement (in some ways, ahead of my own Mini-T), but a passive? :scratch:
Could be that the BTE is lightening up the bass a bit so resulting in a more transparent sound? - Dave says this in post 764 after taking the BTE passive out of the system - "bass was a little overblown and strangely there was a slight loss of transparency." Maybe the two aspects are connected.
I must admit I've never tried adding a superfluous passive pre! :)
brian2957
05-04-2014, 08:19
That's a very interesting point Jerry and one I will be investigating . I don't really know what's going on either :scratch: . I'm off up to Garys ( gazjam ) gaff in a bit and I'm going to plug the BTE into his valve amp and see what transpires . I will post my findings when I get the chance.
Well, so Brian hears an improvement using a BTE passive pre ahead of a (different) integrated amp .... so it's not just Dave going potty after all! :eyebrows:
Does this make technical sense to anyone? I've heard an active pre making an improvement (in some ways, ahead of my own Mini-T), but a passive? :scratch:
Could be that the BTE is lightening up the bass a bit so resulting in a more transparent sound? - Dave says this in post 764 after taking the BTE passive out of the system - "bass was a little overblown and strangely there was a slight loss of transparency." Maybe the two aspects are connected.
I must admit I've never tried adding a superfluous passive pre! :)
Going potty? I'm disappointed Jerry, I thought I hit those dizzy heights a long time ago... :lol:
It shouldn't work however it appears to and I'm at a loss to explain exactly why. I've thought about this since and provisionally put it down to the acoustics in my room but now we've heard from Brian that he has had a similar experience this would seem to be unlikely. I am really keen to try the bi-amp route using perhaps two Mini-T's, a pair of Mini One's or less likely, due to the increased outlay involved, a couple of Bantam Golds. The plan is to use one amp per side with one channel driving a tweeter and t'other the mid & bass units. if this should ever happen I will report back with the results ;)
brian2957
05-04-2014, 16:02
Well back home from my visit to Garys place today and his system , including Edingdales which are still settling in , is sounding absolutely fantastic. Gary also uses a high end valve amp which is very good indeed.
After listening so some tunes we put the BTE passive into the system between DAC and valve amp . The result was a loss of bass and a general wooly quality to the sound resulting in loss of impact and clarity.
Dunno what's going on here , but I can hazard a guess . Garys valve amp has a quality pot fitted . I don't know how good the pot in the Bantam Gold is . When I put the BTE into the system I used it with the Bantam Gold at full volume . The Gold pot may ( or may not ) be the weak link in this amp , so using a passive with a good stepped attenuator may be improving things :scratch:
When I got back home I used the system with and without the BTE and still prefer the SQ with the passive in my system . More clarity and life to the sound . Go figure.
I think it more likely that there is an impedance mismatch between the BTE and Garry's valve amp Brian from how you describe the resulting sound...
brian2957
05-04-2014, 16:19
Good point Dave , never thought of that .
Aye, another good listening session with me ole mucker Brian. :guitar:
My systems sounding good, I tell you these Edingdales are something else.
Listening to a track from Dire Straights Live at the BBC, Brian commented that the drum beat came from outside the room!
BIG soundstage, great imaging.
Interesting to hear Brian's passive pre too, had a loan of DaveK's lightspeed attenuator back in the day which is similar I guess?
Made a slight improvement then, though my system was very different at that time. A lot less revealing particularly with the AE109 speakers, which were great for rock but not the most revealing speaker in the world.
Wonder if whats happening here is similar to why I dont upsample my audio anymore?
Before I got the big E's I set Jriver to upsample all my audio as the dac can do 32/384.
With my previous setup it sounded better, like a high quality "loudness" control.
With the Edingdales though I can hear the effect of the up-sampling, and not in a good way.
It sounds processed somehow and compared to non oversampling the music seems to have lost something. Less natural sounding and the "point" of the music is lessened.
My Dac already up-samples before the analogue stage so why mess around with the original file twice?
So I don't up-sample any more and my system is better for it.
Point is that before my new speakers up sampled music sounded subjectively better to me.
With a more open window to what my system is actually doing perhaps I'm hearing the downsides to interfering with the original signal path?
Similar to whats happening with Brian's passive pre?
Could be an impedance mismatch s'pose, I'm more inclined to think the above.
Also...mibbay this what happens when solid state is brought in to a valve amp setup? :eyebrows: :lol:
I have solved the minor issue with the BTE and it is now fully functional once again, yippee!!! Thankfully it was an easy fix which didn't need Anthony's intervention so now I can concentrate on where to go from here.
As I have mentioned before I am really enjoying what the Amptastic Mini-T is doing in my system just now. There is something about its presentation which strikes a chord with me. It is a little more revealing and transparent in partnership with the BTE in comparison with the 306 plus it generates a more convincing soundstage. I need to be patient though as these observations are based upon having the Skibo's in the system and with the DM2's out of action I am loath to make any decisions about where to go from here until they are up and running again. Patience isn't one of my strong points but in this instance I really must bite the bullet and wait until the full picture is available to me.
brian2957
08-04-2014, 15:26
I'm still loving the BTE passive with the Bantam Gold . I took it out for a day just to recheck . More bass , so I think Jerry may be right about the bass attenuation with the passive in my system . When I put the passive back into the system the result was less , but more tuneful bass . Also a much cleaner lifelike ( IMO ), sound . So the BTE will be staying for the foreseeable future. :)
I'm still loving the BTE passive with the Bantam Gold . I took it out for a day just to recheck . More bass , so I think Jerry may be right about the bass attenuation with the passive in my system . When I put the passive back into the system the result was less , but more tuneful bass . Also a much cleaner lifelike ( IMO ), sound . So the BTE will be staying for the foreseeable future. :)
I agree regarding a more tuneful and tighter bass but this may be giving the false impression that there is less of it perhaps? In the grand scheme of things the BTE does seem to bring more focus to the overall sound which for me makes it a winner :)
brian2957
08-04-2014, 15:53
Yup too right Dave , I don't really care if there's something missing or too much of something . I like it as it is . :lol:
its ALL subjective. :)
If it sounds better....it is.
brian2957
10-04-2014, 22:47
Amigo is yer inbox full . Tried sending a PM :scratch: Have a good day tomorrow and I'll hear how you get on :)
sorry boss, sorted. :)
Picking her up 2pm this aft... be nice to have my wheels back!
I've been away for a while reflecting on things. It quickly became apparent however that I am crap at being a mirror (although I could make a decent career out of being a brick wall), so I am back.
I will say this in a hushed tone, but I think my box swapping days are over unless I happen to win the lottery. I may consider buying a mains regenerator sometime in the future though. For now I'll stick to having fun playing with various cable configurations to explore the various differences and possibilities, all home grown of course ;)
Mr Kipling
13-07-2014, 13:35
Where ya been lad? Nearly started a " Where's Dave?" thread more than once. Anyway, good to see you back.
Where ya been lad? Nearly started a " Where's Dave?" thread more than once. Anyway, good to see you back.
Various and varied arguments about bloody cables led to me becoming so frustrated with it all I began chewing through doors. When I started on the door frames the missus called time and banned me from anything containing a microprocessor... That isn't strictly true of course but you get my drift ;)
Anyway, thanks for the welcome Stephen. I'm much more relaxed now I've finished the course and the doctor says my fibre intake is more than adequate... :D
brian2957
13-07-2014, 14:48
Welcome back mate :)
Thank you muchly Brian ;)
By the way, a really nice chap sent me a set of IC's he's made which are turning out to be a bit of an eye-opener. Oh, wait a minute... ;)
brian2957
13-07-2014, 15:41
;)
By the way, a really nice chap sent me a set of IC's he's made which are turning out to be a bit of an eye-opener...
Ear-opener, shurely? :eyebrows:
Welcome back, Dave!
Marco.
Indeed... :)
Thanks Marco.
Yo Keith, how are you fella?
After perusing an interesting thread on The Audio Standard forum authored by MartinT concerning component isolation, I decided to experiment with a couple of items under my Quad 306 amp which I have lying around the joint. A little while ago I removed the standard Quad feet and replaced them with four, small Sorbothane pods. I struggled to hear any improvement with these in place but let them be seeing as they weren't doing any harm and besides, I couldn't be arsed to disconnect everything so I could take the amp apart to re-attach the Quad feet, which brings us up to yesterday evening.
After removing the Sorbothane pods from the base of the amp I was a little miffed to discover that the adhesive which holds them in place had baked permanently into the paint finish over time :rolleyes: Ah well, shit happens. Anyway, first up for trial by Dave were a set of three, large cork bungs originally destined for Demijohn bottles. Well, they were different but not much of an improvement over the pods. There was a little more leading edge attack to percussion and someone had thoughtfully jogged the guitarist with a foot to wake him up a bit, but other than that it was pretty much business as usual.
Next up for insertion were a set of three gold plated brass equipment supports exactly like these little so-and-so's below:
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzIwWDk2MA==/z/hDsAAOxyFIFR9o7A/$T2eC16J,!ykE9s7tw!wGBR9o7!JfgQ~~60_57.JPG
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/MySystem3.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/MySystem3.jpg.html)
This is where my 306 lives although this is an old photo. I've come a long way since I snapped this :)
HOLD THE PHONE!!! Now, my 306 sits between the speakers on the first shelf of an old unit which I believe originates from Ikea, although I bought it secondhand for a fiver from a recycle centre. I replaced the rather flimsy original shelves with more substantial blockboard items which improved matters immensely (see the photo above). With the spikes sitting under the Quad it quickly became obvious someone had issued a loud 'BOO!!!'. These wee, gold plated beauties know a thing or two about delivering music because the band were now wide awake and playing as if their lives depended on it (the band in question being The Rolling Stones at the time). Since placing these supports under the Quad I've been working through my collection and it's official, they have tightened everything up to point where music delivery is effortless, fluid and oh so sweetly detailed.
So thank you Martin for inspiring me to experiment, I'd have probably not thought to try these under my amp and as such I am glad I read your thread. Such a small change for such a large improvement, who'da thunk it? ;)
Sovereign
16-07-2014, 21:45
I'm always amaze by what equipment supports do, when I first tried RA Torlyte I couldn't believe it
Okay, I'm tapping my feet and nodding in time to the music, I guess that's a good thing... :D
Next, it'll be a wee shimmy-ette across the room... :dance: :dance:
Then, take a vid, fire it on YouTube, and see how many hits it gets!! :D
Marco.
Best to avoid Ravel's Bolero then, you never know what might happen... :D
On second thoughts... :bonk:
Better watch that bad back of yours! :lolsign:
Marco.
Better watch that bad back of yours! :lolsign:
Marco.
Ow! ... ow! ...... ow!. owowowowow ... ow . ow . ow.... Can you give me a bit of privacy please, bit busy at the mo... :ner: :D
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/MySystem3.jpg
Having studied this photo again (hadn't seen it for a while before reposting it on the previous page) I may have a move around. The Sound Organisation rack my kit currently lives in is obviously a purpose built item but I'd forgotten just how cool my old kit looked housed in this modified Ikea unit. From a sheer practical stance, because the thing sits on castors it would mean swapping out cables would just be a matter of pulling it out and swinging it around, a potent proposition because with the current arrangement this is a major operation which leaves me in agony for hours.
Now here's a thing, I am currently playing Dimensionaut from Sound Of Contact and for a giggle I have just fired up the Akai AX-A3 thus enabling the AS AV21's to join the party. Judicious adjustment of the volume control on the Akai has produced a surprising result, an increase in dynamics in the mid and top end akin to what I hear from my DM2's when they are working to their full potential, this is sounding pretty amazing right now. Granted imaging is all to pot as the AV21's are firing down the room whereas the Skibo's fire across it (not very 'audiophile') even so, I like what I am hearing... :eyebrows:
I appear to have lost a few posts from this thread due to the recent server problems so here's an update.
The main system hasn't had a look in for over a week now as the JVC/Acoustic Solutions AV21 combo sounds so damned musical. My audio files are served into the DAC and then on through to the BTE, departing via its un-attenuated outputs and into the AX-A3's CD input. This is totally uncharted territory and I would fully understand if people think I am talking a load of bo**ocks, I would too I were them. As I've mentioned elsewhere this makeshift system is not without its faults, but it makes damn fine music, isn't that what its all about?
New look for the BTE...
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/1646a7f1-728b-48d3-836a-38da8e612e49.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/1646a7f1-728b-48d3-836a-38da8e612e49.jpg.html)
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/56b4e0d9-4180-4097-9362-f18a03879ab3.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/56b4e0d9-4180-4097-9362-f18a03879ab3.jpg.html)
What is it like Dave? ...I recently bought a Tisbury, which looks very similar tbh, but have not got round to using it yet.
I'm well happy with it Grant and have never regretted selling the Classé DR5 it replaced. Vivid transparency is the name of the game here with none of the loss in bass depth which I noted with the Tisbury. Of course the usual bo**ocks apply: In my system and with my ears etc... :)
i'll report what mine sounds like when i get around to trying it
Here's the innards of my 306 which I've posted up for R100 (or anyone else for that matter) to peruse for evidence of mods. The Sanwa 4700uF caps were installed a couple of years ago.
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/30132bbe-e0ad-45ae-b71a-7e7ba7cb6022.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/30132bbe-e0ad-45ae-b71a-7e7ba7cb6022.jpg.html)
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/ce3de8ff-3f7f-44c7-a0c0-75eb2e269d9a.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/ce3de8ff-3f7f-44c7-a0c0-75eb2e269d9a.jpg.html)
I'm well happy with it Grant and have never regretted selling the Classé DR5 it replaced. Vivid transparency is the name of the game here with none of the loss in bass depth which I noted with the Tisbury. Of course the usual bo**ocks apply: In my system and with my ears etc... :)
You're the only other person beside me who has found that the Tisbury is a bit too lightweight in the lower end. Thank god for that I thought it was my ears (or brain). :)
jandl100
01-08-2014, 07:46
You're the only other person beside me who has found that the Tisbury is a bit too lightweight in the lower end. Thank god for that I thought it was my ears (or brain). :)
It's all to do with electrical matching between the Tiz and the associated other kit, I suspect.
The Tizzy and my old Krell KAV250a power amp were totally, jaw-drop stunning in the bass! Slam, power, depth and control. I've not heard it as good as that before or since.
For me the Tiz lacks a bit in transparency compared to a good stepped attenuator passive, but it has a kind of slightly golden musical glow to it that I really enjoy.
I've not heard a BTE like Dave's, but I compared the Tiz to a Glasshouse stepped passive pre - the Glassy one had the extra dollop of transparency but it was a bit sterile and I preferred to listen to the Tiz.
It's all to do with electrical matching between the Tiz and the associated other kit, I suspect.
.
Ah but how do you explain the difference between the Tis and the NVA P90 then? They are both passives, just attenuators with some wiring. Why does the NVA have so much more weight to the sound?
You're the only other person beside me who has found that the Tisbury is a bit too lightweight in the lower end. Thank god for that I thought it was my ears (or brain). :)
Don't get me wrong Martin the Tizzie is a fabulous thing and I will always be grateful to Jerry for lending me his as it set me on my current path. The simple fact is though that the BTE I have now outperforms the Tisbury and at a lower price too. It would be niteresting to pitch the BTE up against the NVA sometime. I've little doubt the NVA would be the better sounding unit but I suspect the result would be closer than some might think ;)
Don't get me wrong Martin the Tizzie is a fabulous thing and I will always be grateful to Jerry for lending me his as it set me on my current path.
Yep, likewise :)
Mr Kipling
01-08-2014, 09:29
Ah but how do you explain the difference between the Tis and the NVA P90 then? They are both passives, just attenuators with some wiring. Why does the NVA have so much more weight to the sound?
Thr type of resistors used.
Mr Kipling
01-08-2014, 11:57
How many steps get used? A simple mod would be to use high quality resistors like bulk foils on the step you use and maybe the one below and above, if you tend to use the same step all the time for all your sources.
I use about 4 or 5 steps but I'm understand that the resistors in the P90SA are already as good as they get.
Ah but how do you explain the difference between the Tis and the NVA P90 then? They are both passives, just attenuators with some wiring. Why does the NVA have so much more weight to the sound?
Do the Tiz and NVA have the same impedance laws on the attenuators/pots? Only if they were identical could they really sound anything like the same IMO.
I have to say the 306 does look superb inside and hopefully very easy to work on. I covet a couple of 520f's owned by two friends, although well used examples definitely need cap checking amongst other things now as the supply caps especially do get well throttled in these designs. Well worth looking at the dada website for update suggestions as the recommendations are practical and not for 'race-tuning' reasons I've discovered.
Mr Kipling
01-08-2014, 13:42
I use about 4 or 5 steps but I'm understand that the resistors in the P90SA are already as good as they get.
How much does the NVA cost compared to the Tisbury, though?
How much does the NVA cost compared to the Tisbury, though?
about another £500 on top...
Think about 2 to 3 times dearer. There's one on eBay for 300 new. I got my tis pretty much new for about 70 . might end up using for now as a switch box for the aldiko.
I have to say the 306 does look superb inside and hopefully very easy to work on.
It is beautifully elegant inside there isn't it Dave. Here's the relative chaos inside my old Hafler for comparison... :)
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/Haflertopviewinternal.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/Haflertopviewinternal.jpg.html)
Mr Kipling
01-08-2014, 15:58
about another £500 on top...
Well, I think that answers your own question, rather.
I'm back with the main system again having got a good handle on the sound of the AV21's. This would be a good time to recount my thoughts so here goes:
Obviously the Skibo's being a much larger speaker system deliver a far fuller sound however there are things I'm missing such as the AV21's pacey nature. They are super fast little boxes which start and stop on a dime when necessary. For example rimshots are delivered with absolute precision and sound tangibly 'real'. Symbols 'tshh' rather than 'shhh' if that makes any sense and there's no doubting the 'steel' in a steel stringed guitar when listening to the instrument on the AV21's. The Skibo's sound smeared by comparison and lack accuracy. I really must sort the DM2's out because my experience moving from them to the Skibo's was very similar in the DM2's favour.
I will try the JVC in the main system tomorrow to keep things consistent, ya never know it may wake the Skibo's up a bit. Watch this space ;)
Here's the innards of my 306 which I've posted up for R100 (or anyone else for that matter) to peruse for evidence of mods. The Sanwa 4700uF caps were installed a couple of years ago.
thank's Synsei, I have the same. it sure is nicely built. As posted on another thread, mine is now really sounding fabulous with the Stereo-Coffee LDR (http://stores.ebay.com/stereo-coffee/Other-/_i.html?_fsub=1) kit and the Dada (http://dadaelectronics.eu) updates .. Talking about NVA, I used to have a old NVA AP30 which was very refined and had a lovely sound. I sold it, only to regret the sale some time later. I find that the SC/LDR + 306 is as good. I am finally getting the same pleasure I got from the old AP30 which has been my reference amp ever since. :carrot:
Thank you Rupert, I have the Dada site bookmarked now. Looking at their example photo of a 306 with one side (channel) fitted with the upgrade components I am fairly sure my example has a few upgraded components already. Could I trouble you to post up a photo of the interior of yours to compare please? Thanks ;)
No probs..
I you require the full list of components, you could register at dada and get it from the download section there. I am not sure I can (legally) post the PDF here :scratch:
1291112912129131291412915
back of the Dada 306 PCB
1291812919
and the LDR pre evolving with regulator
1291612917
Thank you so much sir. The reason I suspect mine may have been fiddled with already is highlighted in the pic below:
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/b246f160-deac-49f6-a1c0-d40c2cf03d7b.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/b246f160-deac-49f6-a1c0-d40c2cf03d7b.jpg.html)
After some very extensive and intensive listening performed over quite a few months I have come to the conclusion that my ART Skibo's are an enigma wrapped up in a conundrum. I wouldn't blame you, dear reader, for becoming somewhat perplexed with me over my wayward meanderings regarding these beautifully constructed units, and they really are lovely pieces of furniture.
The issue for me has been that they can sometimes sound sublime in this room and yet at other times they can be a little bland and uninvolving. I've never owned a pair of speakers quite like them and thus it has taken me some time to understand them and truly appreciate how they are interacting with this room. The conclusion I have come to after all this ruminating is that the room is too small for them to really stretch their legs, which is a shame. On reflection then I am going to sell them on once the DM2's are up and running again, hopefully to someone who can give them the space they so desperately need to give of their best, and this time I will not be changing my mind.
brian2957
05-08-2014, 11:27
Nice to know where you're going Dave :)
Nice to know where you're going Dave :)
It's taken a while for me to truly understand why they behave the way they do in here Brian. I stuffed the bass ports with a couple of pairs of socks night before last in an attempt to tame the bass output and even this didn't work fully, although it has helped a little. Incredibly it is the wee AV21's which highlighted the issue for me, they work incredibly well in here.
... my ART Skibo's are an enigma wrapped up in a conundrum.
Oh Dave, you know I truly love you but let me share this disgusting Australian's message: His name is "Chopper", he has a handlebar mustache, the thickest Aussie accent, Air-pilot sunglasses, and he purports to be a Comedian. He appears on New Zealand Television Comedy shows: He says his words are "A mystery, wrapped up in an enigma, wrapped up in a cardigan". ok, ok its wet - just a little NZ - OZ rivalry here.
There has been an interesting development, it would seem that neither the Quad nor the Skibo's were at all happy in their relationship. The JVC AX-A3 has usurped the 306's position and frankly I may as well have changed the speakers too because the entire character of the Skibo's has changed enormously, from boring to bouncy, from dull to lucid... The flabby, over-bearing bass has gone completely to be replaced by a tight-assed version which extends down into the depths of hades. I think the Skibo's may have sneaked off to the gym overnight. Some extended listening is called for methinks, to be continued....
NB: This JVC is a damned fine amplifier...
Bit of a turn-up for the books. I wonder if the Skibos were asking the 306 to produce current where it couldn't? That JVC isn't exactly a power house, so what is going on there?
Bit of a turn-up for the books. I wonder if the Skibos were asking the 306 to produce current where it couldn't? That JVC isn't exactly a power house, so what is going on there?
I don't think that is it Martin. The JVC develops 45w per side IIRC and the 306 50wpc and both amps contain very hefty tranny's and good quality power supplies. As I've mentioned previously I am pretty certain someone has been inside the JVC before as there are a fair few Elna and Wima caps on the board.
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/After.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/After.jpg.html)
The Skibo's themselves are efficient, 92db/1w@1m IIRC and present an easy load. The Mini-T can drive them with ease whereas it struggles a little with the DM2's so I am at a loss to explain it. Regardless, the two amps will remain in their current roles, the Quad driving the AV21's in my little near-field system, a task it excels at... ;)
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/2014-08-07161909.jpg
Apologies for the poor quality of the photo, shaky hand syndrome...
My new toy arrived this morning... :)
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/94823270-8491-4c86-ba74-e339c09085d7.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/94823270-8491-4c86-ba74-e339c09085d7.jpg.html)
walpurgis
09-08-2014, 10:48
Oh dear, burns on fingers and blobs of solder in the carpet and burnt holes in trousers! :D
Oh dear, burns on fingers and blobs of solder in the carpet and burnt holes in trousers! :D
Oh how I've missed that... :lol:
Health issues are preventing me from doing any work on the AV21's today so instead I am spending the day listening to music.
Putting the JVC in the main system has been a revelation, the insight it has brought to the music has come as a real surprise to me especially considering its rather humble origins and the undoubted capabilities of the 306, everything just sounds so 'right'. I am realistic enough to understand it is not and never will be 'the amp to beat all amps' but in this system at this point in time it fits the bill. It possesses the ability to present music in such an effortless manner which I find utterly beguiling. Bass is crisp, clean and has real weight to it and it only really losses out to the Quad when rendering voices which have a tad less presence, but even so the two are very close here. I can't wait to hear the DM2's on the end of this however my health needs to improve a bit before I can consider installing the new Coles to achieve this aim. This has given me extra impetus to get the job done though. It also looks very cool sitting in my pine Ikea rack, which is an added bonus.
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/2014-08-10164509.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/2014-08-10164509.jpg.html)
By coincidence Dave I've just started reusing my Ikea unit for Hifi duties -
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?14191-Couple-of-bits&p=571767#post571767
They do look rather good don't they?
By coincidence Dave I've just started reusing my Ikea unit for Hifi duties -
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?14191-Couple-of-bits&p=571767#post571767
They do look rather good don't they?
Indeed they do Roy and they are very sturdy to boot :)
Both the AV21's are now sorted (many thanks to Mr Kipling for the film caps) and sound wonderful right out of the box. The top end seems more refined to me however its early days yet as the caps need to bed in a little. Not quite sure how but bass output appears to have received a boost too and it is as tight as a drum :scratch:
I'm one very happy Dave... :fingers:
brian2957
11-08-2014, 10:14
Well done Dave :) I would think that the AV21s would get even better with some use . Hope you get back to better health soon mate .
I use an IKEA rack for my system too . I love it and the wife is happy with it too :)
12987
Well done Dave :) I would think that the AV21s would get even better with some use . Hope you et back to better health soon mate .
I use an IKEA rack for my system too . I love it and the wife is happy with it too :)
12987
Been meaning to ask this for ages Bri: What is the box sitting on top of your AG500?
This is a rather ratty Inkel MA-420 prof power amp which delivers 100wpc into 8ohms, 150wpc into 4ohms and 300w bridged into 8ohms (I presume).
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/2014-08-13155344.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/2014-08-13155344.jpg.html)
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/2014-08-13155842.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/2014-08-13155842.jpg.html)
This has been sat in my garage for quite a while (around three years I think). Another ebay find, I paid fifteen quid for it IIRC and it was described as 'working'. For all I know that could be the case but having lifted the lid upon arrival I discovered that the power caps were bulging so off it went into the hifi warehouse (garage) where it was forgotten about until yesterday.
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/04b7a9b7-215c-484b-b7b8-b9dae3cebe04.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/04b7a9b7-215c-484b-b7b8-b9dae3cebe04.jpg.html)
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/2014-08-13155613.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/2014-08-13155613.jpg.html)
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/ee40b3b6-1213-4146-92f3-005ac55456e1.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/ee40b3b6-1213-4146-92f3-005ac55456e1.jpg.html)
As well as the swollen 6800uF caps (which I intend to replace) another concern is what appears to me to be scorching on part of the input board (see crummy photo above lol). The board is discoloured around both ends of the two resistors you can just about make out in the photo. Board discolouration is hardly ever a good thing so I'm expecting trouble here, any ideas?
brian2957
13-08-2014, 15:54
Aye , put it back in the garage Dave :lol:
Aye , put it back in the garage Dave :lol:
Tempting, but I need to clear out some shite and the Inkel drew the short straw :D
For all I know it could either be a wee gem or else a complete dog. Either way if I can get it fettled then I can assess it myself without any danger of little mushroom clouds forming over it when I hit the power switch... :lol:
p.s. It's a fooking heavy b*stard
istari_knight
13-08-2014, 16:09
Dave, those caps are shot. 80v caps are pricey, expect to pay at least £6 each for replacements & always stick to mainstream brands such as Nippon Chemicon, United Chemicon, Epcos, BC, BHC or Panasonic.
The input board appears to be an opamp circuit that converts the balanced XLR connections to single ended. The scorched area is likely just board discolouration caused by the heat coming off those voltage dropper resistors which take power from the front end, reduce it & feed the opamp. If you can read their value/s I would suggest replacing them with equivalents from the next wattage rating up, so if they're 2w fit some 5w for example. The originals cant dissipate the required heat & its spreading down the legs into the PCB tracks.
Other than that it looks fine :thumbsup:
Dave, those caps are shot. 80v caps are pricey, expect to pay at least £6 each for replacements & always stick to mainstream brands such as Nippon Chemicon, United Chemicon, Epcos, BC, BHC or Panasonic.
The input board appears to be an opamp circuit that converts the balanced XLR connections to single ended. The scorched area is likely just board discolouration caused by the heat coming off those voltage dropper resistors which take power from the front end, reduce it & feed the opamp. If you can read their value/s I would suggest replacing them with equivalents from the next wattage rating up, so if they're 2w fit some 5w for example. The originals cant dissipate the required heat & its spreading down the legs into the PCB tracks.
Other than that it looks fine :thumbsup:
Excellent James, thanks for that. I did have an RS resistor chart (circa 1981), might have still, but I've no idea where it is. I'll take a better photo tomorrow and post it up so you can identify them. Do you think there'd be any benefit in upping the caps to 10,000uF?
istari_knight
13-08-2014, 23:58
This can come in handy: http://www.csgnetwork.com/resistcolcalc.html
It certainly wouldn't hurt to increase the total capacitance, 6800uF is on the small side for a 100wpc amp. I've read of 50Hz hum issues with Behringer pro amps which use 3300uF for 100wpc, the hum decreased below audibility after they were increased to 10,000uF.
I removed the reservoir caps from the Inkel tonight, they are pretty much shagged. Shake them and they'd make great Marakers... :lol:
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/8945d6bf-9c53-4617-9bca-9e475f184bb0.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/8945d6bf-9c53-4617-9bca-9e475f184bb0.jpg.html)
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/2014-08-17213740.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/2014-08-17213740.jpg.html)
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/2014-08-17223039.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/2014-08-17223039.jpg.html)
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/3f4a2939-9710-452e-9731-58cd08bb566c.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/3f4a2939-9710-452e-9731-58cd08bb566c.jpg.html)
walpurgis
17-08-2014, 22:50
They do look a bit past it. Are the tops supposed to be 'domed'?
They do look a bit past it. Are the tops supposed to be 'domed'?
No Geoff they should be flat on top. Not sure if it comes across well in the photos but the walls are bulging too. I will need to dispose of them very carefully... :eyebrows:
walpurgis
17-08-2014, 23:01
Would it be an idea to uprate the replacements? I'd imagine these have been working on their limit.
(just noticed. James said similar!)
Indeed, going to upgrade them to these (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2pc-JAPAN-Elna-Lao-10000uF-80V-For-Audio-Electrolytic-Capacitor-New-/331156434140?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d1a762cdc) ;)
walpurgis
17-08-2014, 23:06
Nice. You'll need a wheelbarrow to get them in the house.
(typical Chinese listing. A bit garbled)
It will be interesting to hear it in the system when it's done. It's very basic but the tranny is impressively huge and the damn thing weighs a ton. I'd like to grab another MA420 as they can be bridged at the flick of a switch and in this configuration I'm looking at 300w per side... :)
Not sure whether the third band is red or orange on these resistors :scratch:
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/2014-08-18132018.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/2014-08-18132018.jpg.html)
Does that make them 472ohm then? Also, how do I tell the wattage Martin please?
istari_knight
18-08-2014, 13:04
4K7 by my watch...
Definitely red, you can see an orange band on "R105R" at the bottom of the same picture.
4K7 by my watch...
Definitely red, you can see an orange band on "R105R" at the bottom of the same picture.
Righto James. Erm, I feel a bit of a chump asking this but does that mean 4k 7w? (I should know this)
istari_knight
18-08-2014, 13:14
Sorry Dave, my bad ! 4K7 = 4.7K or 4,700Ω
Not sure of wattage but would guess 2W, I would replace with either 3W / 5W.
Sorry Dave, my bad ! 4K7 = 4.7K or 4,700Ω
Not sure of wattage but would guess 2W, I would replace with either 3W / 5W.
Thanks James. Just found an excellent do-dad to calculate this here (http://www.dannyg.com/examples/res2/resistor.htm) for anyone else who's stuck ;)
Decided to go for 5w 4.7k to be on the safe side but they are proving to be elusive :o
Does that make them 472ohm then? Also, how do I tell the wattage Martin please?
Sorry Dave. I have the ability to tell red from orange but that is about the limit of my powers. Thank God we have James, eh?
Thanks James. Just found an excellent do-dad to calculate this here (http://www.dannyg.com/examples/res2/resistor.htm) for anyone else who's stuck ;)
Neat - thanks for the link Dave. :)
I just remember the mnemonic: "Bye Bye Rosie Off You Go, Birmingham Via Great Western". That is: black (0), brown (1), red (2), orange (3), yellow (4), green (5), blue (6), violet (7), grey (8) and white (9).
Neat - thanks for the link Dave. :)
I just remember the mnemonic: "Bye Bye Rosie Off You Go, Birmingham Via Great Western". That is: black (0), brown (1), red (2), orange (3), yellow (4), green (5), blue (6), violet (7), grey (8) and white (9).
You're welcome Barry. Another good'un which is for Android smartphones is Resistor Calculator from Anglesey Apps, it's on Google Play Store and it's free ;)
https://lh4.ggpht.com/1mDmAOZnFzVdCH7Mo68dpHptjp_bogUUn5qnKJn8a5-jCbLIJ3muU5e5h9L0DZtk5qrU=h900
istari_knight
18-08-2014, 16:39
Decided to go for 5w 4.7k to be on the safe side but they are proving to be elusive :o
If you're "eBaying it" Dave, I've just had a look & there isn't any under £5 which is ridiculous... 3W are plentiful and will be fine, just leave the legs a little longer to keep them further from the board.
If you're "eBaying it" Dave, I've just had a look & there isn't any under £5 which is ridiculous... 3W are plentiful and will be fine, just leave the legs a little longer to keep them further from the board.
There are so many different types of resistors out there that I am now totally confused as to which would be best to use; metal film, carbon film, wire wound etc, etc :scratch:
Incidentally James I have the Missions in my near-field system just now and they sound ruddy marvellous hooked up to the 306. The AV21's film cap experiment turned out to be a disaster, leaving them sounding thin and without substance. I will source some decent 'lytics when I can be bothered but for now I am concentrating on getting the Inkel MA420 up and running ;)
istari_knight
18-08-2014, 17:50
There are so many different types of resistors out there that I am now totally confused as to which would be best to use; metal film, carbon film, wire wound etc, etc :scratch:
Incidentally James I have the Missions in my near-field system just now and they sound ruddy marvellous hooked up to the 306. The AV21's film cap experiment turned out to be a disaster, leaving them sounding thin and without substance. I will source some decent 'lytics when I can be bothered but for now I am concentrating on getting the Inkel MA420 up and running ;)
Pretty much any will be fine in that application, excluding "carbon comp" ! The least expensive are likely to be "MOX" AKA "metal oxide". Don't fret though, you don't have to change the originals at all if you dont want... I assumed you were keen to practice with your shiney new soldering iron but if not those resistors pose no short to medium term problem & that bit of circuit isnt even in use unless your using the balanced input.
I'm not that surprised to hear the film cap didn't work, not necessarily because they were designed to use 'lytics but far more likely IMO that the tweeters simply aren't of high enough quality. These things can be "greater than the sum of their parts", many a budget speaker is such. You're not alone in this though, I had to find out the hard way too :doh:
I'm making a Hificollective order next week [possibly the week after] if you want me to add some bipolar 'lytics to the order or indeed anything else just say... "Nichicon ES" are only about 30p each IIRC.
I'm making a Hificollective order next week [possibly the week after] if you want me to add some bipolar 'lytics to the order or indeed anything else just say... "Nichicon ES" are only about 30p each IIRC.
Thanks James that would be incredibly helpful, I will get back to you on this via PM's ;)
The AV21's are currently on furlough from the near-field system whilst awaiting parts for further mods. My Mission 760i's are standing in for the time being however they may well be staying slightly longer than anticipated. I've been listening quite a lot to the classics recently and to my surprise the Missions do orchestral music exceptionally well. I say 'surprised' because the 760i's aren't exactly large speakers, in fact they are quite wee and yet they can represent the scale of a symphony orchestra with aplomb. They are particularly good at reproducing the brass section which comes over with real 'brassiness' and bite. Superb stuff.
Okay guys I replaced the blown Coles in my DM2's this afternoon and frankly I found the job very stressful. It works but the damn things are so very delicate that for a while there I somehow managed to convince myself I'd fooked yet another one up so as a result I've come to a rather drastic decision. Due to my innate clumsiness I have decided to sell both the DM2's and the Skibo's, which should allow me to source a pair of speakers with Dave proof tweeters. I will be very sorry to see the DM2's walk out the door as they are quite the nicest sounding speakers I've ever owned, however I need to be both practical and honest with myself: It is only a matter of time before I do something stupid and blow yet another pair of supertweeters. Honestly, I can't keep shelling out nearly 100 notes for these things whenever my common-sense is out to lunch :rolleyes:
I am really enjoying the Mission 760i's in my near-field system just now, the only area where they lack in comparison with the DM2's is in extreme bass extension, in all other aspects they equal the DM2's. The Missions are quite unforgiving of poor quality recordings unlike the DM2's but I can live with that for now. I own a pair of Atacama SL400 stands which supported the DM2's so to save on spending extra cash their replacements will need to be able to sit comfortably on these stands. Rear ported speakers are a definite no-go in this room so whatever the replacements are they must either be front ported or inifinite baffle designs, any suggestions? The budget will be around the 400 to 500 quid mark (once the Skibo's and DM2's have sold) so that should give me a fairly decent choice on the used market.
walpurgis
24-08-2014, 19:15
That's a shame Dave, I know you were rather fond of these. Not heading down the Tannoy route now by any chance?
That's a shame Dave, I know you were rather fond of these. Not heading down the Tannoy route now by any chance?
Possibly Geoff, how would you rate the Dorset T185?
walpurgis
24-08-2014, 20:01
It sounds like a proper Tannoy and the mid and top are as good as the Monitor Gold or HPD, but you will be aware of the plastic cones in the lower mid every now and then. If it was me buying a pair, I'd dope the cones or at least the cone centres.
It sounds like a proper Tannoy and the mid and top are as good as the Monitor Gold or HPD, but you will be aware of the plastic cones in the lower mid every now and then. If it was me buying a pair, I'd dope the cones or at least the cone centres.
Plastic cones eh? :hmm: Just sent you a PM with a pic of the pair I'm considering btw ;)
I have the house to myself for a couple of hours this evening as the Wicked Witch of the West and her cohort (the in-laws) have taken the rest of the family out for a slap up meal. They are the sort of people who see the rest of the family as 'the lower orders' so I have no time for them. We had an hours notice by the way and the kids have only just got off the train from their fathers in Rotherham. Inconsiderate bastards!!!
Righto, I've got over our visit from the in-laws so I am in a better place now (truly awful people). Things will be moving on the DIY front soon because I'm feeling a whole lot better (been really poorly for nearly three weeks) and I have some components to work with plus the rest of the tools I ordered nearly a month ago have finally turned up (Royal Mail, hang your head in shame :spank: ).
The first thing to get finished will be the Acoustic Solutions AV21's as I now have some rather snazzy Mundorf caps and Mundorf M-Resist resistors to fit, hopefully these will move things forwards soundwise ;)
Fortunately my inlaws are too decrepit to travel :eyebrows:which is just as well as its a long way home.:lol:
istari_knight
06-09-2014, 15:40
Ooh good luck, do report back with pictures :D
Ooh good luck, do report back with pictures :D
Sorry James no pics just wanted to get it done asap as the old back is playing up. I have Curtiss Mayfield's New World Order playing right now and it is sounding damned spectacular, even though I have literally just finished working on the '21's so this bodes well. A couple of days should see them improve even more as the 'lytics bed in... :cool:
istari_knight
06-09-2014, 16:46
Good news they're sounding better :thumbsup: :cool:
I soldered the Mundorf resistors and Elna caps in with silver solder and then re-soldered the boards in their entirety with the same. Next up will be a complete re-wire with Van Damme cable, but not today.
You know how much I like what the Missions do however the AV21's are now outperforming them in every respect other than in extended bass output. The 21's image better and throw out a far more believable soundstage than the Missions, in fact the latter are rather vague in comparison. Instrumental textures are captured with such accuracy that they really can take my breath away. Logic dictates that the 21's 'cheap as chips' drivers should not be capable of this feat and yet I cannot ignore my own ears, the evidence is right here in front of me. The AV21's have turned into a monster, a rather scrumptious, chocolate coated monster with a delicious and highly textured praline centre :eyebrows:
istari_knight
08-09-2014, 00:04
Good stuff :thumbsup:
Did AS not make any larger models you could try ? AV70 look closely related.
Good stuff :thumbsup:
Did AS not make any larger models you could try ? AV70 look closely related.
They did James, AS produced quite a range of speakers actually including VFM models for the professional market as I discovered yesterday. I'm not sure about exploring the larger models in the range as the cabinets throughout are manufactured from cheap chipboard which is only around 15mm thick. This isn't so much of an issue with the tiddlier cabs like those of the 21's but it is likely to cause problems with cab resonance on the larger models I would think, unless of course AS saw fit to install internal bracing which I doubt, considering the AS70's sold for less than a ton new IIRC ;)
Thought I might have had a niggly issue with the 21's yesterday but it transpired that it was only a speaker positioning issue which is now well and truly sorted. Epic!!! If there are any members out there who doubt how accomplished these speakers are, do yourself a favour and pick up a pair from ebay, they are cheap so there's nothing much to lose. Listen to them in standard form first and then carry out the same inexpensive minor mods to the crossovers as I have. Give them a day and a half to bed in and then be prepared for a bit of a shock. I currently have my pair sitting around nine inches from the rear wall and positioned about 51/2 feet apart, angled in towards my listening position around 30 degrees or so. This puts me approximately four feet from each speaker which is perfect for my taste. What is so surprising is just how rich the presentation is from these speakers, closing my eyes I'd swear I was listening to units considerably larger.
Currently very much enjoying an RPO and Ambrosian Singers rendition of Holst's Planet Suite conducted by Vernon Hadley. For a laugh I stuck on Bach's Toccatta and Fugue in D: Minor earlier. I forget all the details but it was a Deutsche Grammophon recording so it was no slouch. I expected the little four inch bass/mids to be totally overwhelmed by this piece, how wrong was I? Admittedly the foundations of the house didn't exactly shake during the low notes but I tell you what, it weren't bad at all :)
Are they a ported speaker, Dave?
Are they a ported speaker, Dave?
They are an infinite baffle design Martin ;)
Brian has bought a pair which should be with him sometime soon so no doubt he will be adding his impressions shortly...
brian2957
09-09-2014, 16:27
Aye we is back after being offline for 3 days due to the next door neighbour cutting through the Virginmedia cable :rolleyes: Speakers not arrived yet..
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/e0408171-420b-481f-9493-184a133573d3.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/e0408171-420b-481f-9493-184a133573d3.jpg.html)
The front (and rear baffles) on the AV21 cabs are recessed by 5mm as you can see from the photo however I have a cunning plan. I'm thinking of filling the voids front and rear with birch ply panels (cut to size of course) which would not only bring the front baffle flush with the edge of the cabinet lip but should also aid HF dispersion from the tweeter. My thinking is to bond and screw these panels to the existing baffles with perhaps a thin, rubber membrane between the two to deaden the baffle as a whole.
You may have noticed that I have been displaying a series of craft from cult sci-fi films and TV series over the past week or so as my avatar. There is something a little different and a bit special about the current incumbent however, I wonder if anyone can explain what that might be? :D
BTH K10A
10-09-2014, 05:07
It's a yellowy colour :D
Mr Kipling
10-09-2014, 07:20
Well, the craft is "Seaview" from "Voyage To The Bottom Of The Sea". Not sure what the relevance is. Woildn't have thought the ASs were plumbing the depths of the audio spectrum.
You are warm Stephen, USOS Seaview is actually this crafts mothership ;)
It's the 'flying sub' (usually with David Hedison at the controls)
It's the 'flying sub' (usually with David Hedison at the controls)
And the prize goes too.... :)
It's full title is Flying Sub 1, more commonly abbreviated to FS-1. The intriguing thing about this vehicle is that it actually exists, to a point. The craft in the TV series is based on the vehicle in the photo below. The concept of a flying sub was intriguing enough in 1964 to spawn some serious feasibility studies into producing a craft with the fictional vehicles capabilities. Obviously the research didn't lead anywhere and in 1969 the project was quietly dropped.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_04kZGR_ltmE/SdC1n3wmqTI/AAAAAAAAC0c/RtHbZoM-aHI/s1600/SP-350+diving+saucer.jpg
brian2957
10-09-2014, 14:47
Is that Jacques Cousteau in the picture ?
(Also appearing in 'City beneath the sea' (3:21) - Irwin Allen made a habit of reusing footage)
SNH_q0qXSHw
Mr Kipling
10-09-2014, 16:59
True. I was in a bit of a hurry this morning before starting work and didn't give it enough thought.
Item on tv last night about The Bermuda Triangle. A new type of sub was investigating it. Had a speed of 150 Ft/4 Secs.
Is that Jacques Cousteau in the picture ?
T'is the legend himself Brian :)
Soon there will be yet another pair of speakers here, they are being sent by top bloke James for me to evaluate in the system (thank you James :D). I have a sneaky feeling they may well be just what the doctor ordered, time will tell of course. Want a sneaky peek?
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/dc41c63f-bf3d-4bb4-b2f9-93f00ff437c7.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/dc41c63f-bf3d-4bb4-b2f9-93f00ff437c7.jpg.html)
istari_knight
11-09-2014, 16:25
Here's hoping for a 2 out of 3 success rate on sending you speakers that you like ! Seriously underrated gems IMO [I do/did have 3 pairs :D]
Currently on the lookout for R952's :eyebrows:
The main system is sounding bloody spectacular today... :D
Here's hoping for a 2 out of 3 success rate on sending you speakers that you like ! Seriously underrated gems IMO [I do/did have 3 pairs :D]
Currently on the lookout for R952's :eyebrows:
The only speaker stands I currently own are a pair of Atacama SL400's however I am concerned these may be a little too low for the 852's, I'm thinking 500mm tall stands may be more suitable...
brian2957
12-09-2014, 21:15
The MAs look very nice indeed Dave . Please keep us posted on how they sound . I'm still waiting for the AV21s to arrive . I take it that from your posts elsewhere that modifications to yours are still ongoing . I'll be in touch for advice when I've got the time to have a good look at mine when they arrive.
walpurgis
12-09-2014, 21:16
Yes, I'm waiting eagerly to see what you make of these Dave.
The MAs look very nice indeed Dave . Please keep us posted on how they sound . I'm still waiting for the AV21s to arrive . I take it that from your posts elsewhere that modifications to yours are still ongoing . I'll be in touch for advice when I've got the time to have a good look at mine when they arrive.
No worries Brian, I'm only on the end of the phone if you need me dude, it is turning into a serious little project which is ironic considering... ;)
brian2957
12-09-2014, 21:28
Jeez it's ages since I talked to you on the phone matey :lol: The problem is sometimes I need diagrams and pictures so you better brush up on your artistic skills :eyebrows:
Where are you storing all those speakers BTW . The garage must be getting pretty cramped . Any more and you'll be sleeping in it too :)
Yes, I'm waiting eagerly to see what you make of these Dave.
I've learnt my lesson Geoff so I'm being deliberately nonchalant about the 852's, however I hope they will do the business and the signs are they just might, fingers crossed eh? ;)
brian2957
12-09-2014, 21:32
852s ??
852s ??
I assumed Geoff was referring to the MA's Bri, but I guess he wasn't. Had a pounding headache all day so I'm not really with it... :eyebrows:
walpurgis
12-09-2014, 21:56
I assumed Geoff was referring to the MA's Bri, but I guess he wasn't. Had a pounding headache all day so I'm not really with it... :eyebrows:
I sympathise. Headaches are nasty. Luckily, I've had a headache free week.
I get quite a few and they really get me down, 'cos they stop me concentrating and kill any enthusiasm to do anything.
My apologies Geoff if you were referring to the AV21's ;)
I am considering taking these a lot further than I initially planned, including a full compliment of new drivers at some point. I get why some are so enamoured with small speakers now, they do so much 'right' especially in the 'mids'. Years ago I owned a pair of Tandy's Minimus 7's, aluminium cabs with a tiny 3" woofer and 1" dome tweeter. When positioned correctly on stands those things could sound magical, wish I still had them, and the micro 40wpc York pre/power combo I drove them with... :doh:
brian2957
12-09-2014, 22:18
Confused now Dave . Is it the 852s or the 252s you're getting ?
852's mate, these very ones in fact ;)
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/dc41c63f-bf3d-4bb4-b2f9-93f00ff437c7.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/dc41c63f-bf3d-4bb4-b2f9-93f00ff437c7.jpg.html)
walpurgis
12-09-2014, 22:32
My apologies Geoff if you were referring to the AV21's ;)
The MAs.
istari_knight
13-09-2014, 12:19
It'll be good to get Dave's opinion for sure. I love them but there's relatively little info out there... There's a few posts on PFM where previous users compared them favourably with Epos ES14 [which were £50 cheaper RRP] which is what prompted me to try them in the first place.
The fact theres no obligation to buy will remove any "post purchase rationalization" or "biases" so we can expect a brutally honest appraisal :dynamite:
HAHAHA...
As always it will all come down to whether the 852's work well in this room and with the rest of the system. The advantage now is that I have three amps and various cables to choose from (although the Mini-T might struggle to drive these methinks) plus a lot more patience :D
brian2957
13-09-2014, 12:40
Oops . I thought it t was the 252s you were getting Dave :mental: Which ever they look very nice indeed.
istari_knight
13-09-2014, 12:56
(although the Mini-T might struggle to drive these methinks):D
You may be surprised, I've used them with a 10wpc EL84 amp... Okay so ultimate volume was limited but it didn't audibly struggle at all :eyebrows:
Well James, they have arrived. Got them hooked up to the Quad in the near-field system just now. They ain't the shy and retiring type, are they? :D
More thoughts later as they have only been here for about an hour, however in the short time I've been listening to them I like what I'm hearing. The bass response is impressive and very, very clean, I like that ;)
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/dc41c63f-bf3d-4bb4-b2f9-93f00ff437c7.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/dc41c63f-bf3d-4bb4-b2f9-93f00ff437c7.jpg.html)
istari_knight
16-09-2014, 19:08
Glad to hear they arrived okay. Aye, they're no shrinking violets but not too "in your face" either... Compared to the Royds/Regas/JBLs of this world.
Have fun :thumbsup:
Well guys the Monitor Audio R852's really do sound very, very impressive in here. What they have highlighted, and it was the first thing to leap out at me, is the extent to which the room has been compromising the bass response of just about every medium to large speaker system I've had in here, but not these, oh no. Bass is tight, very well extended and tuneful. I've suspected this to be the case for some time however the R852's have revealed the magnitude of the problem. The clarity of these things is exceptional as is imaging and the soundstage they produce.
Anyway, back to the music for now. I'll keep them in the near-field system for a few days then transfer them over to the main system for more fun and games... ;)
With our hobby everything is a compromise to some extent, the trick is to find a compromise which best suits your ears. Well chaps, for now at any rate, it would appear that I have achieved just this. I liken this to doing a massive jigsaw puzzle: In the beginning everything is a horrible jumble but gradually, over time, the picture begins to form and the anticipation builds until eventually there are only a handful of pieces left in the box. Things progress quickly towards completion when suddenly, and to your horror, you discover there is a piece missing. You hunt high and low for it to no avail and then one day, while you are moving your so nearly complete jigsaw out of the way to clean up, the piece in question is revealed.
Righto, more thoughts on the MA's. Brilliant!!! What, not very helpful? Pfft, okay then... :D
The MA's deliver a totally unforced, uncluttered and supremely balanced presentation of whatever you choose to throw at them, more so than the DM2's which sound slightly average in comparison. This is not to say the DM2's are bad in this respect it's just that the MA's do it so much better. Transient attack is breath-taking. Playing the opening to Get Your Hands Off My Filthy Desert from Pink Floyd's, The Final Cut illustrates this wonderfully, the sound of the incoming shell ripping through the air and its subsequent explosion hit me square in the chest almost knocking me off my perch! These speakers do dynamics better than any I've heard to date, which is quite an accolade.
What sets these apart from other speakers I've owned is that not only are they dynamic they do subtlety very well too. The Darwin Song Project is an album which was recorded live at the 2009 Shrewsbury Folk Festival and which features artists Rachael McShane, Stu Hanna, Emily Smith, Mark Erelli, Chris Wood, Krista Detour, Karine Polwart and Jez Lowe. This is an album I am very fond of, it is a superb recording packed with detail, ambience and micro-dynamics. Listening to this via the DM2's is an enjoyable experience in itself, however moving over to the R852's reveals so much more in the recording. Feet tapping in time to the music, the breath of the various singers between phrases, the tap of fingers on the body of a fiddle, the sort of subtle detail which heightens ones awareness. Via the DM2's one gets an impression of where each artist is on stage, whereas through the MA's I can place Miss Detour, for example, at a specific point on the stage even though she is surrounded by the other artists and performers, with each performer delineated in their own spot within an epic three dimensional soundstage. This is a neat trick which not only shows off the capabilities of the speakers but of my system as a whole, which is exceptionally gratifying.
What has come as a surprise is just how easy the MA's are to drive considering they sport sealed enclosures. I'm used to having the volume control on the BTE set to around 11 o'clock for a decent listening level (1 o'clock with the AV21's :stalks:), however with the MA's 9 to 10 o'clock is the order of the day. Oh, I almost forgot: One thing the DM2's are very good at is delivering a balanced view of the music at low listening levels and I am delighted to report that the R852's continue this tradition complete with the extra benefits they bring to the table, so that's alright then... :cool:
With our hobby everything is a compromise to some extent, the trick is to find a compromise which best suits your ears. Well chaps, for now at any rate, it would appear that I have achieved just this. I liken this to doing a massive jigsaw puzzle: In the beginning everything is a horrible jumble but gradually, over time, the picture begins to form and the anticipation builds until eventually there are only a handful of pieces left in the box. Things progress quickly towards completion when suddenly, and to your horror, you discover there is a piece missing. You hunt high and low for it to no avail and then one day, while you are moving your so nearly complete jigsaw out of the way to clean up, the piece in question is revealed.
One day I caught myself saying to someone who was admiring my system: 'you can't buy this sort of system'. I immediately thought I had just said the most fatuous thing ever. Of course every thing was paid for. But now that the embarrassment is over I think there were elements of truth in what I said. On one hand there were parts of my SL1210 that were home-made, but more to the point is that it takes experience (in years even) in addition to money to research, select, try, discard, try again. And all in one's own particular environment for one's own music. That last piece of the jigsaw you mention is very satisfying (for me it was the Phono-stage) precisely because it is the last piece and it lifts everything else on the 'A chain is as strong as its weakest link' basis.
One day I caught myself saying to someone who was admiring my system: 'you can't buy this sort of system'. I immediately thought I had just said the most fatuous thing ever. Of course every thing was paid for. But now that the embarrassment is over I think there were elements of truth in what I said. On one hand there were parts of my SL1210 that were home-made, but more to the point is that it takes experience (in years even) in addition to money to research, select, try, discard, try again. And all in one's own particular environment for one's own music. That last piece of the jigsaw you mention is very satisfying (for me it was the Phono-stage) precisely because it is the last piece and it lifts everything else on the 'A chain is as strong as its weakest link' basis.
Very nicely put Andrei :D Without meaning to sound smug I have done all this on a shoestring budget, together with a few judicious trades plus a lot of help from like minded people. It is the latter which makes it all worth while and so I cannot thank enough all those who have helped me out along the way. Thank you one and all... :cool:
Incidentally guys I have now gone totally digital. The Techie SL5 needs some work and funds are just not available for this so I have packed it up and put it in the garage together with its poorly phonostage. I may get it fixed sometime in the future but my preference would be to replace it with an SL10 or maybe even an SL7 if I can ;)
Currently listening to Working Without A Net (Live) from Janis Ian and it sounds bloody ace, best I've heard it in fact. Another big thumbs up for the MA's :thumbsup:
brian2957
18-09-2014, 21:10
Nice one Dave . I've been listening to the Eagles , one of my favourite bands , for most of the evening. :)
Ah, the Eagles are ace too. Sadly I will have to turn this down soon or my neighbours will revolt... :lol:
brian2957
18-09-2014, 21:36
Aye me too . I'm off to ma cot soon . It's been a long day and it'll probably be a long night :rolleyes:
Aye me too . I'm off to ma cot soon . It's been a long day and it'll probably be a long night :rolleyes:
Aye me too probably, take care Brian and goodnight :)
brian2957
18-09-2014, 21:44
:popcorn: What more can I say :lol:
:popcorn: What more can I say :lol:
Blame the music man, it just won't stop... :lol:
brian2957
18-09-2014, 21:49
Blame the sugar man mate . I've just been listening to 'Searching for Sugar man' by Sixto Rodriguez . Wonderful album .
Blame the sugar man mate . I've just been listening to 'Searching for Sugar man' by Sixto Rodriguez . Wonderful album .
Oh that's a new one for me, must look on Spoti for it ;)
brian2957
18-09-2014, 21:55
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Searching-For-Sugar-Man-Soundtrack/dp/B008C1WUZ2/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1411077274&sr=8-3&keywords=sixto+rodriguez
Cheers for the Amazon link Bri, listening to it on Spoify just now. The title track is a little weird but in a good way ;)
brian2957
18-09-2014, 22:00
It grows on you mate :lol:
Reminds me of Donovan a bit, of whom I am a huge fan... :D
Blame the sugar man mate . I've just been listening to 'Searching for Sugar man' by Sixto Rodriguez . Wonderful album .
The two albums Rodriguez put out were (1) Cold Fact, and (2) Coming From Reality. IMHO I put Cold Fact ahead of Abbey Road by the Beatles. I have them on LP and CD. Both formats are well recorded, with neither getting the nod.
The movie Searching for Sugar Man is such a heart-warming tale. Here is a man who's story deserves to be told. Its one of those films you feel better within yourself, having seen it. Lots of other interesting things such has his beautiful daughter Regan and it is always nice to see Cape Town. I was in South Africa when these albums came out and they were very popular, more or less everyone owned a copy.
http://www.theartsdesk.com/sites/default/files/images/stories/NEW_MUSIC/Kieron_Tyler/Searching%20For%20Sugar%20Man%20_web.jpg
spotify:album:4s7qz6sSmn1gzphGM9P5dK
;)
I bought both his albums immediately after seeing the film, which was shown on TV a few months ago.
I bought both his albums immediately after seeing the film, which was shown on TV a few months ago.
Shame I missed it, do you remember which network aired it Barry?
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2026 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.