What does Flat earth mean to you?

[Marco]

Indeed, Steve.

If we've caused some people to examine and challenge their preconceptions, then regardless of anything else this thread has been a success

The 'Confronting your realities' thread previously was equally controversial and emotive... Questioning/probing discussions such as this are what AoS is about. We like to get people thinking and out of their cosy comfort zones, even if the journey is unlikely to be smooth!

Marco.

[Steve Toy]

Ok, Dimitri, I provided three possible definitions. You've exercised a process of elimination.

Can you now provide us with at least one more definition of Flat Earth that you feel a significant number of people may identify with.

Bear in mind also that the three definitions above are all established historically.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Marco

You always state we should be open minded, which I strongly agree with.

'Flat Earth' principles are not so open minded. We know thats why TT like the SP10 etc suffered. There's loads of Jap crap being re-discovered, that were very very good at the time, they were totally shunned at the time because of the 'Flat Earth' movement. Labels like 'New Flat Earth' do not promote open mindedness IMO, there's no need for labels, even less need for a label like 'New Flat Earth' that seems to be in the middle of 'Flat & Round Earth'. Labels are destructive & I don't need to sit under the umbrella of one, I am to open minded for that!

I'm completely with this 100%
Surely if you continue down this course, you will be in danger of reaching (or giving the impression that you have reached) the logical conclusion of your argument:
A twist on what was mentioned by Steve earlier -
"You're a nobody without a Technics TT or one of Anthony's amps"

Is this the impression you want to give?

[Marco]

Hi Chris,

I also agree (in principle) with this part alfie wrote:

'Flat Earth' principles are not so open minded. We know thats why TT like the SP10 etc suffered. There's loads of Jap crap being re-discovered, that were very very good at the time, they were totally shunned at the time because of the 'Flat Earth' movement.

...Although it's referring to 'flat-earth' in a way which isn't representive of our definition of the words.

However this bit (and what you've just written above):

Labels like 'New Flat Earth' do not promote open mindedness IMO, there's no need for labels, even less need for a label like 'New Flat Earth' that seems to be in the middle of 'Flat & Round Earth'. Labels are destructive & I don't need to sit under the umbrella of one, I am to open minded for that!

...Unfortunately shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the point we're making. I've no idea how I can make myself any clearer. Therefore, I'll pass this over to Steve because no offence, Chris, quite honestly I'm losing the will to live!

Marco.

[Steve Toy]

No Chris. The process is more important than the result. There are other musical amps and turntables out there. It is certainly not a case of buying anything on our say-so.

I'd prefer to say:

"You're a nobody if you can't choose your hi-fi by using your ears and need to rely on the opinions of others as your guide."

The purpose of this forum is to share and compare experiences and generally point people in the direction determined by the positive experiences of others. Those that tread the same or a similar path should still do the necessary listening and making their own minds up.

Do you find it difficult to stand under the umbrella of choosing hi-fi that makes listening to recorded music more involving and enjoyable on an emotional level?

[DSJR]

Dave, I've never heard SBLs sound anything other than awful.
The dealer at the time tried to convince me otherwise but the lack of bass and spitty top end just got in the way of everything else they were supposed to do. Allaes that followed at that price point were much better.

Hi Steve,

Maybe we had a bass dem room at Listen Inn (I reckon we did), but after a good few years away from SBL's I came to the mk2 version with very much a negative stance. To be absolutely fair, they could sound very good indeed and a great partnering power amp we had was the Arcam FMJ one, which had a big-n-beefy presentation. The bigger Meridian power amp seemed to cope well too. Apart from the styling, complex box and very cheap main driver (which Naim charged around a ton each for), The SBL could be made to work well in a well damped living room, although the close proximity to walls ruined any imaging qualities they may or may not have had.....

I rather admired the active SBL's as long as the tweeters were turned down a notch from the standard setting (more a problem with the undamped Scan-Sqeak model they used I think, which sounded off at 8KHz - audible and certainly measurable in all its versions too).

I fully understand if you never liked these speakers though, but I hope you can also understand how fans of Naim driven SBL's would loathe Spendor, Rogers and Harbeth products with a vengeance

I had the BC2's running well today at lunchtime and find that they seem to effortlessly dig through compressed recordings without appearing to add or remove anything of sgnificance. I can "follow the tune" with consumate ease and despite the deliberately "talky" ply boxes, the larger voice coil over the BC1 (amongst a couple of other things coupled with the simple tweaks I've done) does seem to keep the bass under some sort of control, so I get a measure of "pr@t" as well.

How wonderful to once again own a system that doesn't tell me what music to play..........

[The Grand Wazoo]

No Chris. The process is more important than the result. There are other musical amps and turntables out there. It is certainly not a case of buying anything on our say-so.

I'd prefer to say:

"You're a nobody if you can't choose your hi-fi by using your ears and need to rely on the opinions of others as your guide."

The purpose of this forum is to share and compare experiences and generally point people in the direction determined by the positive experiences of others. Those that tread the same or a similar path should still do the necessary listening and making their own minds up.

That's what I kind of hoped you'd say! Just call me the resident Beelzebub's advocate!

[Marco]

That's what I kind of hoped you'd say!

Thank God for that (and Steve nailing it). Otherwise it was time for a spot of Hari Kari!!



Marco.

[Themis]

Ok, Dimitri, I provided three possible definitions. You've exercised a process of elimination.

Can you now provide us with at least one more definition of Flat Earth that you feel a significant number of people may identify with.

Bear in mind also that the three definitions above are all established historically.

Steve, as you know I'm far from the UK hifi circles, so you have to take my opinions accordingly.
What I understand from this thread and poll is:

- Most members here seem to associate Flat Earth with Linn/Naim. Right or wrong I won't discuss, it seems a fact. Moreover, future members (especially UK) will probably do the same.
- Trying to dissociate from Linn/Naim (older) ways of seeing hifi is irrelevant. First of all because right now these firms are a ridiculous minority in the hifi industry and second because trying to openly divorce with a meaningless (actual) concept seems as if we are giving it unnecessary significance. This old Flat-Earth-Linn/Naim concept is worn-out even for these firms. It's merely a souvenir, something like a camp fire where old Li-Na members gather around to speak about the good-old-times, their good-old-times.

So, there are the Flat-Earters.

Then, there's, also, another view, : People who let numbers, specifications and double blind testing demonstrate what an audio component is capable of. The objectivists.

Finally, there's another one : it's what you (through this site, and probably through this thread and poll) seem to promote : an open-minded conscious evaluation of the hifi gear solely based on subjective qualities. The age, price, manufacturing country, raw materials (valves or not) and measures don't matter. Only the design perfection, manufacturing excellence and subjective reproduction qualities matter. No place for snake-oil.

As far as I know, this is what is widely (internationally) called a subjectivist forum. Without the marketing and the snake-oil. Call it anything you like (best would be AoS ), it still remains subjectivist with solid (conscious) background.

Well, Flat-Earth are subjectivists too, but they gave their soul to some kind of UK marketing.

[Marco]

What I understand from this thread and poll is:

- Most members here seem to associate Flat Earth with Linn/Naim. Right or wrong I won't discuss, it seems a fact.

How so, Dimitri? That's not what the results of the poll indicate so far...

Then, there's, also, another view, : People who let numbers, specifications and double blind testing demonstrate what an audio component is capable of.

...And fail - royally, for valid reasons you've alluded to elsewhere. Sorry, I couldn't resist winding up a few objectivists!

I'll leave Steve to comment on the remainder of your excellent post.

Marco.