Richard's hi-fi ranting 'Room 101'

[anthonyTD]

Well a point is a little unpointed in this case. I have never done any of the things in my question so I am interested in the answers. But for me the most interesting question is the last one about why no sand amps, I think I may know the answer but I am interested in the opinion of those that buy them direct or import them.

So what I am leading to is that if China becomes the only sensibly priced place to buy bottle amps that means kiss UK - US - EU production goodbye. So how do the tweekers fit in with this. I personally would not like to do lots of work for a Chinese manufacturer and expect to have an exclusive for my ideas or to stay out of their other production. Well I know the Chinese from dealing with them for over 20 years and the answer is not a chance in hell. A Chinese ex TCC teacher of mine published a book and printed it in China as the print rate was less than a third of EU price. So they just printed an extra 10,000 and sold them themselves - there is no ethos there are no business ethics.

I personally would never allow any work of mine to get anywhere near them as they are master copiers.

i agree,
i will also add my opinion/reason for the lack of sand amps being offered by the chinese, [if thats ok with you sweety] it would seem to me to be a very simple reason, that is, the chinese are quite good business people too, and at the moment, valve amplifiers are in vogue, they are a curiosity to many people, and they are becoming very much in demand, where as transistor/silicon/sand amplifiers are, well, not...
anyway off to bed now chaps, play nicely now, i will read your opinions on this, and any others you may have when i get chance.

[Chris Frost]

there is no ethos there are no business ethics.

I personally would never allow any work of mine to get anywhere near them as they are master copiers.

So what you're saying is that it's OK for home brewed cottage industry amps to kill the major manufacturers, but it's not OK for the Chinese to do the same to the cottage industry?

Don't you think that's a pretty big contradiction?

[WikiBoy]

i agree,
i will also add my opinion/reason for the lack of sand amps being offered by the chinese, [if thats ok with you sweety] it would seem to me to be a very simple reason, that is, the chinese are quite good business people too, and at the moment, valve amplifiers are in vogue, they are a curiosity to many people, and they are becoming very much in demand, where as transistor/silicon/sand amplifiers are, well, not...
anyway off to bed now chaps, play nicely now, i will read your opinions on this, and any others you may have when i get chance.

Don't be so partisan, I am not anti bottle amps. Yes there is a market and it is pretty stable, but I personally don't think that is it.

Remember during the overtly communist period (where as now it is just pretend communist and really autocratic fascism) they were highly production linked with Russia and Russian technology, well in Russia in the 80's technology was still largely bottle based. So China when it modernised had massive surplus stocks of high voltage components and bottles, as the products they needed to produce were all sand based chip technology.

So this stuff is dirt cheap in China, the labour required is simple and unskilled, there is no sensible way of mechanising production and an old shed and a couple of soldering irons will do the job.

I think this is why the transformers are crap as they are probably the biggest cost item for them, and anyway they can skimp on metal and materials they will, and transformers are not a good place to do this.

So high voltage redundent components are easy to find and cheap, but sand components and low voltage good quality components are at a premium. Basically the opposite situation we have here in the west.

[WikiBoy]

So what you're saying is that it's OK for home brewed cottage industry amps to kill the major manufacturers, but it's not OK for the Chinese to do the same to the cottage industry?

Don't you think that's a pretty big contradiction?

I said nothing of the sort and you know it.

[Chris Frost]

I said nothing of the sort and you know it.

All I know is that you appear to be worried about the Chinese knocking out cheap copy amps. But that seems to be in direct contradiction to your "Finger Pointing at the Moon" philosophy of let all HiFi enthusiasts enjoy cheaper HiFi.

I'm just trying to get a little clarification on your ethos here. Is it one moon for you and a different moon for the rest of us?

[Chris Frost]

i agree,
i will also add my opinion/reason for the lack of sand amps being offered by the chinese, [if thats ok with you sweety] it would seem to me to be a very simple reason, that is, the chinese are quite good business people too, and at the moment, valve amplifiers are in vogue, they are a curiosity to many people, and they are becoming very much in demand, where as transistor/silicon/sand amplifiers are, well, not...

I think you're bang on there.

Judging by the amount of cheap silicon based electronics already made in China there appears to be no shortage of skills and the cost of components doesn't seem to be an issue either. It's simply a question of demand. After all, look at what's happened with Supermarket DVD players once China's production got up to speed. £20 - £30 retail with VAT, import duties, cost of sales, an extra few percent off for 'no returns', and on top of that these seem to be the machines that play every format under the sun. If there's enough demand then some part of the Chinese manufacturing machine seems able to respond.

[pure sound]

Remember during the overtly communist period (where as now it is just pretend communist and really autocratic fascism) they were highly production linked with Russia and Russian technology, well in Russia in the 80's technology was still largely bottle based. So China when it modernised had massive surplus stocks of high voltage components and bottles, as the products they needed to produce were all sand based chip technology.

So this stuff is dirt cheap in China, the labour required is simple and unskilled, there is no sensible way of mechanising production and an old shed and a couple of soldering irons will do the job.

I think this is why the transformers are crap as they are probably the biggest cost item for them, and anyway they can skimp on metal and materials they will, and transformers are not a good place to do this.

So high voltage redundent components are easy to find and cheap, but sand components and low voltage good quality components are at a premium. Basically the opposite situation we have here in the west.

Richard, if you think all of these products are filled with NOS 1980's high voltage components or crappy transformers think again. It just ain't so. There's plenty of decent SS electronics being made in China too, Cambridge being just one example. What's more, you can even buy it in a shop if you choose to!

[anthonyTD]

Richard, if you think all of these products are filled with NOS 1980's high voltage components or crappy transformers think again. It just ain't so. There's plenty of decent SS electronics being made in China too, Cambridge being just one example. What's more, you can even buy it in a shop if you choose to!

well said,
and as for the "crappy transformers" you keep banging on about richard,not so now, i have measured them, and compared to a lot of well respected european equipment, they measure up very well, the problem with some of them [not all] is that their mains transformers are wound for 220v, and therefore not suitable to be run on our aproaching [sometimes] 250v supply.
some of the valves they use in them leave a lot to be desired also, but,over-all, a lot of the equipment coming out of china at the moment is quite impresive.
especially at the price.
anthony...

[anthonyTD]

Don't be so partisan, I am not anti bottle amps. Yes there is a market and it is pretty stable, but I personally don't think that is it.

Remember during the overtly communist period (where as now it is just pretend communist and really autocratic fascism) they were highly production linked with Russia and Russian technology, well in Russia in the 80's technology was still largely bottle based. So China when it modernised had massive surplus stocks of high voltage components and bottles, as the products they needed to produce were all sand based chip technology.

So this stuff is dirt cheap in China, the labour required is simple and unskilled, there is no sensible way of mechanising production and an old shed and a couple of soldering irons will do the job.

I think this is why the transformers are crap as they are probably the biggest cost item for them, and anyway they can skimp on metal and materials they will, and transformers are not a good place to do this.

So high voltage redundent components are easy to find and cheap, but sand components and low voltage good quality components are at a premium. Basically the opposite situation we have here in the west.

richard,
what rot! any components they would have had left from those days are long, long gone now.

[WikiBoy]

Richard, if you think all of these products are filled with NOS 1980's high voltage components or crappy transformers think again. It just ain't so. There's plenty of decent SS electronics being made in China too, Cambridge being just one example. What's more, you can even buy it in a shop if you choose to!

As you perfectly well know I was talking about small companies making direct sales.