The Vain Pursuit of Excellence - Discussion.

[DaveK]

Hi Guys,
I'll open the discussion by stating that audio Nirvana does not exist. I have reached this conclusion, after reading many many postings on the subject on this forum.
My premise is that the constant drive to upgrade is satiated temporarily by change rather than improvement. We all suffer from this delusion to a greater or lesser extent, (even me ) - the ones whose common sense exceeds their budget proceed only slowly and occassionaly up this path of self delusion but those with these attributes in the reverse order go galloping up the the path at a rapid rate - please note that I am being slightly provocative in exagerating the comparison just to make the point .
I invite each of you to look back on your pursuit of excellence in the reproduction of recorded music and ask yourself did each 'upgrade' actually bring you nearer to this goal - you may have convinced yourself that it did at the time but, with the benefit of hindsight, did you honestly maintain that view for very long?
Put another way, given that most of us started off with being originally reasonably happy with our then set up, (otherwise why did we buy it?), and having made numerous upgrades/improvements to it over the years, why haven't we yet reached Nirvana? - how many upgrades does it take? And in that time equipment manufacturers keep assuring us that this year's model is a significant improvement on anything available last year.
I do not doubt that improvements are made, Stan's Caiman and Mike's cables spring to mind, (but perhaps CDs don't qualify), but Nirvana doesn't really get much, or any closer. I can only liken it to chasing a rainbow over the Scottish mountains - you 'upgrade' to the top of the next mountain and are immediately impressed with the new view but then you notice that the rainbow is still as far away as it was and so you set of again aiming at the next mountain top, only for the experience to be repeated - in other words audio Nirvana is an illusion, it doesn't exist and we are all deluding ourselves in pursuing it beyond a certain point. The really cute ones amonst us realise when we have reached that point and sit back and enjoy the music. My recommendation, based on all of three or four months study, is to ignore the pursuit of excellence in the reproducion of recorded music and instead pursue the enjoyment in the reproducion of recorded music - not always the same thing.
Polite debate encouraged .
Cheers,

[The Grand Wazoo]

I think you're quite right, Dave.
I've reached a point where I'm happy with what I've got because now I know I can never reproduce the live sound, but only a fair approximation of it. Anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves.

Sure, I could spend big money to make changes that would shift emphases one way or the other, but I have the basics I ask for in a hi-fi. This is one reason I spend so much time enjoying music through shonky old gear as much time in fact, as I spend listening to the big system.

I've touched on this before when I asked if anyone agreed with my theory that those of us who spend as much or more time in the 'Musical' sections of AoS than the 'Gear' sections are those who are somehow more 'at peace' with their hi-fi.

[Jonboy]

I've reached a point where I'm happy with what I've got because now I know I can never reproduce the live sound, but only a fair approximation of it. Anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves.

Sure, I could spend big money to make changes that would shift emphases one way or the other, but I have the basics I ask for in a hi-fi. This is one reason I spend so much time enjoying music through shonky old gear as much time in fact, as I spend listening to the big system.

I've touched on this before when I asked if anyone agreed with my theory that those of us who spend as much or more time in the 'Musical' sections of AoS than the 'Gear' sections are those who are somehow more 'at peace' with their hi-fi.[/QUOTE]

Oh i wish i was at this stage, it's getting near

[Spectral Morn]

Hi Dave

I can honestly say that I have progressed from what I had to where I am now with my audio systems (and massively). Have I made a few mistakes along the way... Yes a couple but these mistakes were slight and only happened when I assumed I knew better or bought without trying in my own system. However this has only happened a few times and never again ....unlike some I learnt from my mistakes.

The limiting factor now is the room, not the system, in my case.

Now I don't want to be rude, but you have so much further you could go, if domestic harmony allowed you to set your system up as it needs and deserves. However that state does not exist for you and you are happy where you are now, but I know that much more could be got out of your set up than you are getting now. I know you will think that an arrogant statement, but 20 odd years in the audio business and setting up systems in many compromised rooms etc over the years, informs me that more can be got. You have that to look forward to.

There are laws of diminishing returns in audio, but in most cases lack of proper set up or limiting rooms will hold things back more than lack of money. There are of course items that punch way above there modest price in performance but if pampered fully so much more can be had I found this with Stan's DAC when I reviewed it awhile ago. Better cables, digital and analogue, better transports and isolation all moved it up and up in terms of what it could do. Its fussier than many seem to realize....it needs pampering and pampering is what it got. Marco, Rob all heard this when a Stan Dac was moved off a card board box at the Hi-Fi Wigwam show onto a proper stand....Nuff said.

Regards D S D L

[Beechwoods]

For some, it is enough to enjoy an approximation of the music that the artist intended to impart to the listener. That is why a lot of people are happy to listen to MP3's though awful free headphones, or little 'boom-boxes'. Others pursue excellence because their enjoyment of the music is hampered by the compromises that boomboxes and MP3 players bring about.

I don't count myself an audiophile, but a lot of my non-audiophile friends consider me to be one, because I pay attention to how sound sounds and I try to do what I can to make my own system work to it's best, in my own way (with a nod to nostalgia and vintage gear ).

You are right Dave, that audio nirvana is an awkward maiden to tame, and there's no-one here who would say that they have achieved audio nirvana. This means different things to different people. I'm surprised that you feel you have reached a point of contentment in such a short time though - the three or four months you mention, but if you are happy with the sound you have then that is great - the music will communicate with you unimpeded.

I guess that once you have heard other people's systems, you get a sense for what is possible, how the music really should sound. And that's what drives (or has driven) many of the members here forward in the pursuit of excellent sound.

Is your journey over then Dave If you're feeling that you need to get yourself to a bakeoff or two!

The pursuit of excellence is anything but vain!

[DaveK]

Hi Dave
Now I don't want to be rude, but you have so much further you could go, if domestic harmony allowed you to set your system up as it needs and deserves. However that state does not exist for you and you are happy where you are now, but I know that much more could be got out of your set up than you are getting now. I know you will think that an arrogant statement, (No, not at all at all ) but 20 odd years in the audio business and setting up systems in many compromised rooms etc over the years, informs me that more can be got. You have that to look forward to. (Yep, I recognise that fact.)

There are laws of diminishing returns in audio, but in most cases lack of proper set up or limiting rooms will hold things back more than lack of money. There are of course items that punch way above there modest price in performance but if pampered fully so much more can be had I found this with Stan's DAC when I reviewed it awhile ago. Better cables, digital and analogue, better transports and isolation all moved it up and up in terms of what it could do. Its fussier than many seem to realize....it needs pampering and pampering is what it got. Marco, Rob all heard this when a Stan Dac was moved off a card board box at the Hi-Fi Wigwam show onto a proper stand....Nuff said.

Regards D S D L

Hi Neil,
I don't disagree with a word you said and, therefore needless to say, no offence taken. Please don't read my post as a defence of my current set up - I know it's flawed and, as far as chasing rainbows over Scottish mountains is concerned, I'm still in the queue to get on the ferry at Calais . No, it was aimed at getting a discussion going, prompted by various posts by members eulogising about their latest upgrade and how much better it sounds than what it replaced - that is a process that you can only repeat so many times, after that what you are appreciating must, to a greater or lesser extent, be change. Like everything else in life tastes in music reproduction change and what you liked a couple of years ago may not quite satisfy you today - it's not necessarily any worse, just different.

[Alex_UK]

Since I joined this forum around a month ago, I've bought the best part of 40 CDs, and I've committed to some of Mike's cables - I think that puts me in the "really cute" category? (although I admit I came to the forum having just bought a Caiman and a new Creek amp... and now I quite fancy new speakers... I'm doomed, Captain Mainwaring!)

[Jonboy]

we are all doomed as Fraiser says

[DaveK]

For some, it is enough to enjoy an approximation of the music that the artist intended to impart to the listener. That is why a lot of people are happy to listen to MP3's though awful free headphones, or little 'boom-boxes'. Others pursue excellence because their enjoyment of the music is hampered by the compromises that boomboxes and MP3 players bring about. (Agreed 100%)

You are right Dave, that audio nirvana is an awkward maiden to tame, and there's no-one here who would say that they have achieved audio nirvana. This means different things to different people. I'm surprised that you feel you have reached a point of contentment in such a short time though (Now where on earth did you get that silly idea from - I refer you to my reply above to Neil regarding ferries at Calais and rainbows over Scottish mountains) - the three or four months you mention, but if you are happy with the sound you have then that is great - the music will communicate with you unimpeded. (Happy but could be much happier, if that was the only consideration - currently content might be a better description)

I guess that once you have heard other people's systems, you get a sense for what is possible, how the music really should sound. And that's what drives (or has driven) many of the members here forward in the pursuit of excellent sound. AgainI can see the logic in that - I wouldn't pretend, not even to me, that my system is a match for much of the kit enjoyed by other forum members. On the other hand, as I posted some time ago, I visited the Eggborough 'do' and, accepting that the rooms were anything near ideal to demonstrate any system to it's full potential, I can honestly say that I heard nothing their that made me feel ashamed or in any way inferior about what I hear at home, and that was before I got my 7520 !!

Is your journey over then Dave Now where on earth did you get that crazy idea from - to repeat what I said earlier, my destination is to be looking at rainbows from the top of Scottish mountains and I'm still awaiting the ferry at Calais, but I can assure you that my journey will definitely end a long way short of Cape Wrath !! If you're feeling that you need to get yourself to a bakeoff or two!

The pursuit of excellence is anything but vain!

I'll go with that but the pursuit of Nirvana is folly, IMHO

[Beechwoods]

It's ok Dave, my post was written ten minutes before your reply to Neil, and I agree you covered it all there! No worries...