Step-Up Transformers v Phono Preamps

[NRG]

It does.

MC transformers needn't cost silly money. Look at what is actually required and what that costs to produce.

The Sowters go for about £100 each. You can put them in a bling box if you like and charge £2000 - I won't tell

The Sowters are approx £115 a pair, depending on which type you go for.

http://www.sowter.co.uk/phono-cartri...ansformers.php

[Chris]

My Haufe transformers - a great match with my 103Pro - cost me around 40,00 euros each which with postage from Germany meant around say 100 euros. A nice aluminium box and some terminals = 120 euros or thereabouts.

[Barry]

My Haufe transformers - a great match with my 103Pro - cost me around 40,00 euros each which with postage from Germany meant around say 100 euros. A nice aluminium box and some terminals = 120 euros or thereabouts.

Chris,

Would you be willing to sell the Haufe transformers alone, separate from the cartridge? PM me if you are interested.

Thanks

[MartinT]

Well, the CineMag unit arrived last week and I've devoted a lot of time playing with it and all the various permutations of transformer gain, phono preamp gain and loading, with and without transformer. It's a beautifully built unit and a true object of desire. One thing that became quickly apparent is that the phono cable from trannie to phono preamp is critical in terms of shielding and length. Even a well shielded 1m QED Qunex picked up hum and I had to buy a 1ft length with careful routing before I got hum under control.

The best sound I obtained from the trannie combo was gain x10, phono amp gain 48dB and loading 47k. It sounds liquid in the midrange but somehow not as fast as I am used to. Tellingly, scratches are reproduced with a clack rather than a short click. I suspect that some time smearing is going on here, but I have been unable to find a better combination of settings. If I didn't know the sound of the phono pre used exclusively, I would be happy with the overall sound but concerned over slightly elevated surface noise and the handling of scratches. Hum levels were just acceptable.

The best sound I obtained using the GCPH exclusively is better than I had originally managed. I set it up for the AT33PTG with gain 54dB and loading 500. Front panel gain was set to 3/4 in both cases. Hum is now well suppressed. The sound is fast, open, highly detailed with a wide soundstage.

So the result is Trannie 0, without Trannie 1. I'm not at all bothered about the outlay and enjoyed conducting the experiment. I'm also pleased in that it led me to better settings for the GCPH, eliminating hum at normal volumes. I guess I'm a direct phono preamp sort of guy

[NRG]

With the o/p impedance of the PTG at 17 Ohm I think you need to lower your loading to 100~150R... 470/500 is too high IMHO and would lead to the symptoms you described.

[Marco]

Hi Martin,

Unfortunately, this is the result I predicted.

Hey at least you tried it, so if nothing else you're a little bit wiser now than you were before

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but are you saying that the Cinemag SUT has got variable gain and loading or your phono stage, or both?

If you're referring to the Cinemag then, in my experience when it comes to SUTs (as I've mentioned before) the only ones that work properly are ones with fixed gain and loading, where the transformers have been selected to specifically match a particular cartridge, like for example the A23 and the DL-103, or Denons own SUTs, and thus where they been developed together.

There is also the issue of matching the relative 'sonic signatures' of SUTs and cartridges, just as is done elsewhere in a system with other components. As usual, it's all about synergy.

Whenever I've tried variable SUTs the results have never been great, and I experienced pretty much what you're reported, probably because you can never *truly* get an optimised match. Often, the optimal settings are out with the range of the variable options.

Therefore, I wouldn't be tempted to 'close the book', so to speak, on SUTs, as at some point in the future if you obtain a cartridge and SUT that have been designed together from the ground up, you may get different results.

The bottom line is you're happy with the results you're getting in your system at the moment, and that's all that really matters

Marco.

P.S I agree with Neal regarding loading values.

[MartinT]

With the o/p impedance of the PTG at 17 Ohm I think you need to lower your loading to 100~150R... 470/500 is too high IMHO and would lead to the symptoms you described.

Thanks Neal, I will try the preamp set to 100R loading, but of course I have no way of adjusting the trannie's loading which remains at 470R. So this is an experiment for the GCPH on its own.

[MartinT]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but are you saying that the Cinemag SUT has got variable gain and loading or your phono stage, or both?

The Cinemag has x10 and x16 gain. I found the x10 setting to sound superior. There is no variable loading, it's fixed at 470R.

Therefore, I wouldn't be tempted to 'close the book', so to speak, on SUTs, as at some point in the future if you obtain a cartridge and SUT that have been designed together from the ground up, you may get different results.

Absolutely not, Marco, I'm always of an open mind as I learned the lesson years ago that you can easily come around to a component you previously disliked, when it's placed in a more synergistic system*. I intend to keep the SUT for possible future use.

*There are exceptions - I'm never ever going to like Linn Kans for as long as I'm alive.

[Dave Cawley]

You need to understand transformers to get the impedances right! And you need to understand earthing to avoid the almost inevitable ground loop!

Also Cinemag do two transformers, one far more appropriate than the other.

The A23 is designed properly; but Martin, why persist with high speed op-amps and shed loads of negative feedback when you could use a valve like FET with little feedback and passive equalisation?

Regards



Dave

[Marco]

There is no variable loading, it's fixed at 470R.

Therein lays your problem, Martin. That's way too high for an AT33PTG. Like Neil says, you're looking for something in the region of 100-150R.

The other thing is; I suspect that as long as you own solid-state amps you're unlikely to get the full benefits of an SUT.

Some things just 'go together', like biscuits & cheese - and SUTs and valves are a case in point. Not necessarily, like RD says, because you're trying to solve a problem with another problem, but simply because the sum of the parts is more musically desirable and just better overall. In effect, their respective 'flavours' compliment each other - but in the right way.

The fact is, all components are coloured or 'flavoured' to some degree. Therefore, as well as it being a matter of choosing your compromises in hi-fi, it's also a matter of choosing your preferred coloration (or 'flavour'): which components to your ears has the least (or most preferable), and which is ultimately, in your opinion, more faithful to the music. That's why there are no absolutes when it comes to SUTs vs. active MC stages, or for that matter anything in hi-fi!

As you know, I've got both an SUT (A23) and an active MC head amp (Denon HA 500), both optimised for the DL-103, and after extensive listening and comparing, there is no doubt that the A23 produces the more musical results. The HA500 is very, very good, but is definitely more 'hi-fi-like' in its musical presentation, whereas the A23 simply gets to the 'heart & soul' of the music and boogies. However, if the HA500 were used with a solid-state MM phono stage, the results might be different. It's that synergy thing again.

Why not, for a laugh, dig out your old Croft preamp, connect it to your system, and try the Cinemag/AT33PTG in conjunction with the Croft's valve MM stage?

It still won't be 100% right because of the high loading value, but it would be interesting to see what results you get in comparison to what you're using now. I, for one, would be very interested to know what happens. If nothing else, it's just another learning experience

Marco.