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Thread: Why is HFW so biased against vintage cartridges?

  1. #211
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,482
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Arrow Flavour...

    Awesome, Chris, and most interesting!

    Of course, all of this is done in order to accurately replicate that unmistakable vintage tone of the early pickups in a way that could never be done with a mass production process.
    ...which is *precisely* why I use DL-103s, M3Ds, SUTs as opposed to active MC stages, classic CDPs & DACs, valve pre/power amps, and vintage Tannoys.

    Like I've said many times in this thread and elsewhere, it's all about tone and timbre - it is precisely a lack of "richness of tone" that most modern equipment suffers from. I'm not just talking about cartridges here, but right the way across the board from sources to speakers.

    *However*, with all this talk about "richness of tone", there is one very important thing to bear in mind, and it is this:

    When I'm discussing "richness of tone", I don't mean it in terms of imbuing the sound with romantic coloration to create some cosy, rose-tinted, fluffy rendition of recorded music that I can wallow in whilst admiring my pipe and slippers - no siree - I'm talking about the difference between instruments and voices sounding 'real', with proper depth and 'body' to them, and an anaemic 'processed' sounding cardboard cut-out of such in comparison.

    Let me put it another way and introduce an alternative form of terminology to the discussion: 'FLAVOUR'. Well-designed, properly engineered and 'sorted' vintage equipment, such as has been mentioned on this thread, has more 'flavour' than most modern equipment I've heard - but, in the right way.

    It's rather like the difference between growing your own fruit, and picking an apple straight from the tree and eating it, sampling how it tastes, and savouring the depth and intensity of flavour it has compared to the tasteless ones (in comparison) you buy in a supermarket - and so consequently the supermarket apple is less 'real'. It lacks flavour compared to one straight from the tree; in effect, something has been lost in the process between nature creating the apple and us eating it.

    This for me is very similar to when comparing the best vintage equipment to its modern counterpart; just as the supermarket apple has lost a significant percentage of its 'goodness' and flavour, and therefore it has become less 'real' than it was originally when picked and eaten from the tree, so is music less 'real' when reproduced on many types of modern equipment...

    Something has been lost in the design, component selection/implementation, and voicing process by the manufacturer, and that 'something', my friends, is natural flavour, which manifests itself as the 'vintage tone' we've been discussing. And it cannot easily be measured. This 'flavour', in my opinion, is fundamental to how real voices and instruments sound when heard, un-amplified, live. Without it, we're only hearing a watered-down version of the music, which lacks the depth and intensity of 'flavour' of the real thing.

    In terms of my own system and choice of components, as in all the best recipes (I see assembling a musically satisfying hi-fi system as essentially a 'recipe') I seek to bring out the most natural 'flavour' from the music. I feel it's no coincidence that the best systems I've heard mix and match old and new technologies, simply because neither single approach gets is absolutely right. Getting the most natural 'flavour' from music is thus best served by cherry-picking the highest quality vintage gear and mixing it with a soupçon of carefully selected modern kit to stand the best chance of obtaining this fundamental 'flavour'. This is not coloration: it's the difference between real and processed. When listening to music, I want to taste the 'real', richly flavoured, 'organic' apple - not the watery flavoured second-class citizen from the supermarket...

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & regulator mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat with Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight. Isonoe feet & boots. Ortofon RS-212D tonearm with Denon DL-103GL, in a Denon PCL-300 headshell, fitted with Funk Firm Houdini and Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp and Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp, fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.

  2. #212
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Gerrards Cross

    Posts: 3,164
    I'm Tony.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by i_should_coco View Post
    Like Focal?
    Hi Pete,

    Yes indeed, for those who wish to experience music in a real way, though absolutely not for everyone I would agree.
    Flavors again Pete
    Though I did find this lurking 'Mr C's room also sounded good, and he was using Focals!'
    We you hung over by any chance
    Coherent Systems
    Real high end sound with musicality not hifi

  3. #213
    Join Date: Apr 2009

    Location: Sheffield

    Posts: 2,025
    I'm Confused.

    Smile

    Hi Guys,
    Just to add my two penn'orth: -
    As Marco so rightly says, this trend does not just apply to hi-fi, it applies to many aspects of modern life and modern products. One of the few things that Sue and I disagree about (and 'always' have done, but no violence involved ), is 'Form' versus 'Function' as I term it.
    By and large I care more about the 'performance' of almost anything (function) rather than what it looks like (form), whereas Sue's priority, by and large, is what it looks like.
    So, loads of 'black boxes' and speakers reaching from floor to ceiling wouldn't concern me if it gave me audio Nirvana, whereas Sue would prefer no 'black boxes' or speakers, and music which came out of the ether and sounds like it emanated from a single £5 computer stereo speaker. Apart from that we get on fine !!
    Cheers,
    DaveK.

    My System:
    Power: Belkin PF40, Custom.hifi.cables Hydra and DC PSUs.
    Sources: Self built HTPC with Xonar ST sound card, NAD T585 multi disc player, Sony BDP-S350, Squeezebox Touch, Techncs SL1210 (mod'd) + Nagaoka MP30, Thomson Sky HD box.
    Amps etc.: 2 x Mini-T amps, MF-X10D Valve buffer clone, StanDAC 7520/Caiman (mod'd).
    Speakers: Mission 774s with added super tweeters
    Cables: best I can afford and likely to change except Homar's RF attenuated co-ax's and Mark Grant USB and HDMI cables. I also like silver i/cs and speaker cable.

  4. #214
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,482
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NRG View Post
    You got it Marco! Should be fun. I've been getting on with the PL-71 this eve with the 103R and its good...very good especially since I've sorted out the PSU and phono cable...I plan to go to Owston later in the year so would be a good time to get together then...North Wales would be a bit too much of a stretch for me...
    Sounds good, Neil. We can certainly have a play at Owston, but if you can't make it to mine, I'd like to hear your PL-71 in its home environment where you've optimised it, to get a proper handle on what all the fuss is about with this particular vintage T/T.

    So would you be up for me coming down with the Techy and us having our own little mini bake-off?

    Marco.

    P.S I wonder what's happened to Adam? I thought he'd have returned by now to teach me the error of my ways!
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & regulator mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat with Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight. Isonoe feet & boots. Ortofon RS-212D tonearm with Denon DL-103GL, in a Denon PCL-300 headshell, fitted with Funk Firm Houdini and Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp and Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp, fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.

  5. #215
    Join Date: Apr 2009

    Location: Sheffield

    Posts: 2,025
    I'm Confused.

    Default

    Hi Guys,
    If this Owston get-together is open to all, for the benefit of the unitiated can someone advise which Owston is it happening at - there is one near Doncaster and one in Leicestershire.
    Thanks in anticipation,
    DaveK.

    My System:
    Power: Belkin PF40, Custom.hifi.cables Hydra and DC PSUs.
    Sources: Self built HTPC with Xonar ST sound card, NAD T585 multi disc player, Sony BDP-S350, Squeezebox Touch, Techncs SL1210 (mod'd) + Nagaoka MP30, Thomson Sky HD box.
    Amps etc.: 2 x Mini-T amps, MF-X10D Valve buffer clone, StanDAC 7520/Caiman (mod'd).
    Speakers: Mission 774s with added super tweeters
    Cables: best I can afford and likely to change except Homar's RF attenuated co-ax's and Mark Grant USB and HDMI cables. I also like silver i/cs and speaker cable.

  6. #216
    Join Date: Feb 2008

    Location: South Wales

    Posts: 9,148
    I'm NotTakingLifeTooSeriouslyTheseDays.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by anthonyTD View Post
    guitar pick ups are another example, ie, even today some are alnico, some ceramic, depending on the musicians taste, and the type of guitar, although it is posible to make an alnico pick up sound like a ceramic and vice versa, it all depends on how good [knowledgeable] the pick up winder is.
    anthony,TD...

  7. #217
    Join Date: Apr 2008

    Location: east yorkshire

    Posts: 527
    I'm steve.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveC View Post
    Hi Guys,
    If this Owston get-together is open to all, for the benefit of the unitiated can someone advise which Owston is it happening at - there is one near Doncaster and one in Leicestershire.
    Thanks in anticipation,
    donny... its us audio talk lot again...
    collector and DIY user of old british triode valves

    Open baffles / single ended diy px4 and px25 valve amps

  8. #218
    Join Date: Apr 2009

    Location: Sheffield

    Posts: 2,025
    I'm Confused.

    Default

    Thanks SPS,
    I intended to go to whichever it was but now I might now even walk there!
    Well, perhaps not.
    See you there.
    DaveK.

    My System:
    Power: Belkin PF40, Custom.hifi.cables Hydra and DC PSUs.
    Sources: Self built HTPC with Xonar ST sound card, NAD T585 multi disc player, Sony BDP-S350, Squeezebox Touch, Techncs SL1210 (mod'd) + Nagaoka MP30, Thomson Sky HD box.
    Amps etc.: 2 x Mini-T amps, MF-X10D Valve buffer clone, StanDAC 7520/Caiman (mod'd).
    Speakers: Mission 774s with added super tweeters
    Cables: best I can afford and likely to change except Homar's RF attenuated co-ax's and Mark Grant USB and HDMI cables. I also like silver i/cs and speaker cable.

  9. #219
    Join Date: Mar 2008

    Posts: 112

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. C View Post
    Hi Pete,

    Yes indeed, for those who wish to experience music in a real way, though absolutely not for everyone I would agree.
    Flavors again Pete
    Though I did find this lurking 'Mr C's room also sounded good, and he was using Focals!'
    We you hung over by any chance
    Just teasing, matey. Your stuff did indeed sound great at Heathrow!

  10. #220
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,482
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Default

    Hi Pete,

    Could you do me a big favour, matey?

    I'd be obliged if you would post a little review of your T/T bake-off at RD's (by starting a separate thread), as this is of significant interest to people here, too. It doesn't matter if it's simply a cut & paste job from what you wrote on pfm, or you can add other bits in if you wish.

    Cheers, dude!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & regulator mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat with Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight. Isonoe feet & boots. Ortofon RS-212D tonearm with Denon DL-103GL, in a Denon PCL-300 headshell, fitted with Funk Firm Houdini and Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp and Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp, fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.

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