Why is HFW so biased against vintage cartridges?

[Mr. C]

I was at a jazz concert in Chichester Cathedral not long ago and sat barely ten feet away from the drumkit - it reminded me that a real, live, unmiked drumkit is actually a pretty bright and cold sounding device and that most hi-fi systems make a pretty poor job of reproducing this effectively

Adam.

Hello Adam,

I would agree with this statement, having played the drums for pretty much a quarter of century (ouch that hurt!), finding a system that can make a passable stab at recreating the immediacy, dynamic impact, skin resonance trailing note body and realness of a drum kit in full flight is very difficult.
In the same way recreating a 120 piece orchestra in full flight, you will need sheer scale,(effortless), dynamics, the ability to capture nuances, subtlety and the trait to be able to place the the Orchestra correctly.
Now in both cases, being very close to these events can be quite stark at best, the sheer force and scale of music, impact and rasp of brass, symbols, high energy impacts, in quick succession, strings in close proximity would be pretty intolerable for most listeners.
If you were able to genuine recreate this near field experience the vast majority of the UK hifi enthusiasts would run a mile.
Genuine drum kits, (with a drummer who knows his trade ) are incredibly dynamic, fast, sheer force impacts, symbols that can shimmer or crash, kick drums that can thump you in the chest, and this BEFORE amplification is thrown into the mix.
A while back we acquired a recording studio, hearing recordings as they happen is a real ear opener.
Now, paper cones give a natural, articulate and pleasing response right up-to the point the break up (usually in a good way), they never seem to get edgy on their break up point unless you are feeding them DC lol!
If you have genuinely heard a professional drummer (is there such a thing, I was always told we are guys that hang around with musicians ) in a studio or small room enviroment, the slam has amazing intimacy, incredible dynamics, and sheer impact force almost makes you recoil every time the skins are struck (if you are not use to this)
95% of hifi systems we have heard have not had the ability to approach this, those that do have a good go at it! but truly cannot represent it 'honestly'
The truth is very few people would want to hear it honestly, it would simply be 'too much'.
The resolution required, articulation, amplifier control, speaker ability and room interaction factors weigh heavily against this.
A few comments like Artificially tight bass?, constipated lower frequencies, completely un-natural bass, have been levelled at solid state amplification. Whether from a plucked double bass, a fender precision, a tuba or a kick drum etc.
Real genuine bass consists of the following, impact, dynamics, texture,articulation, lead edge and trailing edge note body, depth and placement and rhythmic intact.It should also be able to recreate the frequencies it is portraying, if that means a genuine sub 30Hz (providing the speaker is able to generate this) then it should be there.
For this it requires control, though not so controlled as the sound remains firmly routed in the speakers, it should be 'free' and and following from the speakers.
I can think of nothing worse than big wobbly soft, over full, artificially rich, bloated, mistimed, and plain unadulterated false bass and the truly bad ones are 'blessed' with partial note formation
Just for the record we have valve amplifiaction here that can do all of the above well and we use them on a daily basis to much smile factoring too!
Basically it boils down to how you like your music, most like a good facsimile with 'their' tastes added it works for the individual and like all thing 'which aint broke' down fix it! However some of the public like it 'real' so in the same way they have their 'taste'

[Marco]

Alnico magnets……I’ve seen them mentioned before on other forums and once or twice in HFW. What make them so special compared to the rare earth types?

No idea Neal, but every time I listen to a cartridge that uses them, I hear that big, 'ballsy', rhythmic sound with a glorious 'valve-like' midrange and gorgeous 'tone', I *so* love!

I believe that the use of Alnico magnets is fundamentally responsible for the magical way 103s and M3Ds, SPUs, etc, have with music, when performing optimally. Let's not forget also that Audio Note and EMT use them in their current designs (again I love the sound of these cartridges), and I believe some SPUs (and the SL-15) do, too.

To my mind, there is unquestionably a 'family sonic signature' with cartridges that use Alnico magnets, and I just love what they do with music. Whether or not they are technically 'superior' or not is another matter, but who cares? - Certainly not me. As ever in hi-fi, measurements don't tell the full story.

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

Hello Adam,

I would agree with this statement, having played the drums for pretty much a quarter of century (ouch that hurt!), finding a system that can make a passable stab at recreating the immediacy, dynamic impact, skin resonance trailing note body and realness of a drum kit in full flight is very difficult.
In the same way recreating a 120 piece orchestra in full flight, you will need sheer scale,(effortless), dynamics, the ability to capture nuances, subtlety and the trait to be able to place the the Orchestra correctly.
Now in both cases, being very close to these events can be quite stark at best, the sheer force and scale of music, impact and rasp of brass, symbols, high energy impacts, in quick succession, strings in close proximity would be pretty intolerable for most listeners.
If you were able to genuine recreate this near field experience the vast majority of the UK hifi enthusiasts would run a mile.
Genuine drum kits, (with a drummer who knows his trade ) are incredibly dynamic, fast, sheer force impacts, symbols that can shimmer or crash, kick drums that can thump you in the chest, and this BEFORE amplification is thrown into the mix.
A while back we acquired a recording studio, hearing recordings as they happen is a real ear opener.
Now, paper cones give a natural, articulate and pleasing response right up-to the point the break up (usually in a good way), they never seem to get edgy on their break up point unless you are feeding them DC lol!
If you have genuinely heard a professional drummer (is there such a thing, I was always told we are guys that hang around with musicians ) in a studio or small room enviroment, the slam has amazing intimacy, incredible dynamics, and sheer impact force almost makes you recoil every time the skins are struck (if you are not use to this)
95% of hifi systems we have heard have not had the ability to approach this, those that do have a good go at it! but truly cannot represent it 'honestly'
The truth is very few people would want to hear it honestly, it would simply be 'too much'.
The resolution required, articulation, amplifier control, speaker ability and room interaction factors weigh heavily against this.
A few comments like Artificially tight bass?, constipated lower frequencies, completely un-natural bass, have been levelled at solid state amplification. Whether from a plucked double bass, a fender precision, a tuba or a kick drum etc.
Real genuine bass consists of the following, impact, dynamics, texture,articulation, lead edge and trailing edge note body, depth and placement and rhythmic intact.It should also be able to recreate the frequencies it is portraying, if that means a genuine sub 30Hz (providing the speaker is able to generate this) then it should be there.
For this it requires control, though not so controlled as the sound remains firmly routed in the speakers, it should be 'free' and and following from the speakers.
I can think of nothing worse than big wobbly soft, over full, artificially rich, bloated, mistimed, and plain unadulterated false bass and the truly bad one are 'blessed' with partial note formation
Just for the record we have valve amplifiaction here that can do all of the above well and we use them on a daily basis to much smile factoring too!
Basically it boils down to how you like your music, most like a good facsimile with 'their' tastes added it works for the individual and like all thing 'which aint broke' down fix it! However some of public like it 'real' so in the same way they have their 'taste'

[Marco]

hi all,
there is indeed a diffrence between alnico and modern magnet material, but as some have already said,,, i too think it is probably due to its deficiancies rather than its merrets, [stay with me here] i would compare this diffrence to shock absorbers on a car, if you want comfort use soft ones, if you want the suspension to act as quickly as posible then fit more powerfull shocks! what i am saying is,,, the reason i think alnico based speakers and cartridges have this paticular sonic performance is because the magnetic feild produced is weaker hence the control over the moving parts is weaker...
anthony,TD...

Hi Anthony,

I'm in no position to dispute that, however as always with hi-fi, as I'm sure you'll agree, nothing is ever so 'black & white'

I get where you're coming from, and you're right to an extent, but I don't like what Alnico magnets do because they make music more 'comfortable' to listen to - I like them because for me they make music sound more 'real'!

You've heard the Denon DL-103SA in my system, which uses Alnico magnets, (and at the show at Scalford hall). I'm sure you'll concede that there didn't appear to be too much 'deficient' with the sound

In my view, musically, Alnicos get less wrong than their modern counterparts - that's the way I'd put it. The same could also be said for vintage Tannoys, which I believe also use Alnico magnets. There you go, it's that Alnico magnet thing again, only this time with speakers... To my mind, there is something just so 'right' about the signature they impart onto music.

Marco.

P.S Yes, excellent post by Tony!

[NRG]

As I said I think a myth has / is being built up around these magnets, yes they are weaker for a given size, their use I believe is more of a practical nature than of any mysterious audio properties they may allegedly possess. Their use in 'speakers is one of commercial practicality I'm sure.

I don't see how you can say Marco that they 'get less wrong than their modern counterparts' What does that mean....its not like you can compare a 103 with Alnico and the same 103 with a rare earth magnet... is it?

I have a feeling if rare earth types where available and commercially viable back in the 1960's Denon and others would have used them... Maybe...

[anthonyTD]

Hi Anthony,

I'm in no position to dispute that, however as always with hi-fi, as I'm sure you'll agree, nothing is ever so 'black & white'

I get where you're coming from, and you're right to an extent, but I don't like what Alnico magnets do because they make music more 'comfortable' to listen to - I like them because for me they make music sound more 'real'!

You've heard the Denon DL-103SA in my system, which uses Alnico magnets, (and at the show at Scalford hall). I'm sure you'll concede that there didn't appear to be too much 'deficient' with the sound

In my view, musically, Alnicos get less wrong than their modern counterparts - that's the way I'd put it. The same could also be said for vintage Tannoys, which I believe also use Alnico magnets. There you go, it's that Alnico magnet thing again, only this time with speakers... To my mind, there is something just so 'right' about the signature they impart onto music.

Marco.

P.S Yes, excellent post by Tony!

hi marco,
if you read the adition to my original post[;] i have already stated that i dont beleive that either technology in as far as cartridges and speakers are concerned is right or wrong, all i am saying is alnico based components may let the individual moving parts move a bit more freely, where as rare earth magnets and ceramic magnets will tend to have more grip over the moving parts due to their higher strength, [this is not taking into acount diffrences in flux gaps etc] my point is; either can sound great or crap depending on the system they are partnered with!
anthony,TD...

[Marco]

Hi Neal,

As I said I think a myth has / is being built up around these magnets...

What "myth" is this, then? That cartridges using them in their generator system to other's ears and mine sound better?

I am aware of no other "myth".

...yes they are weaker for a given size, their use I believe is more of a practical nature than of any mysterious audio properties they may allegedly possess. Their use in 'speakers is one of commercial practicality I'm sure.

I'm in no position to dispute that, but these "mysterious audio properties" to me are very real. Is it just a coincidence then that almost every cartridge I like, despite being different in other areas, just happens to use Alnico magnets? I think not.

I believe that the use of Alnico magnets creates a 'common' sonic signature in components, which for me is easily discernable.

I don't see how you can say Marco that they 'get less wrong than their modern counterparts' What does that mean....its not like you can compare a 103 with Alnico and the same 103 with a rare earth magnet... is it?

It's just a theory I have, Neal. I can't prove it though. I should extrapolate and say that classic cartridges I use and enjoy, with Alnico magnets, in my opinion get less wrong, musically, than their modern counterparts. I believe that the use of Alnico magnets in their design is fundamental and significant.

I have a feeling if rare earth types where available and commercially viable back in the 1960's Denon and others would have used them... Maybe...

Maybe; who knows? But then equally, perhaps, they might not have ended up with the superbly musical results that they obtained with the DL-103 (when everything is working in its favour)?

We shall never know!

Marco.

[Marco]

hi marco,
if you read the adition to my original post[;] i have already stated that i dont beleive that either technology in as far as cartridges and speakers are concerned is right or wrong, all i am saying is alnico based components may let the individual moving parts move a bit more freely, where as rare earth magnets and ceramic magnets will tend to have more grip over the moving parts due to their higher strength, [this is not taking into acount diffrences in flux gaps etc] my point is; either can sound great or crap depending on the system they are partnered with!

Hi Anthony,

Couldn't agree more. Quite simply, there are no absolutes in hi-fi - everything depends on application.

Marco.

[Beobloke]

I think you'll find that the issue with Alnico magents is that the corresponding components around them have to be designed differently to factor in their magnetic field, which is inherently weaker than that of a modern ferrite or neodymium magnet.

What this means is lighter cones and smaller motor systems that have a greatly different damping effect to a modern driver with a higher moving mass, hence giving rise to the difference in sound quality. There is no reason a cartridge would be any different - a weaker magnet will require more turns of wire for the same output which gives a higher coil inductance and rolls the top end off.

Also, there is one other point to be made regarding the modern cartridges' rising treble response that needs to be considered, namely that of loading. I know that Noel generally tests cartidges with no capacitive loading, in order to give a level playing field and reference point for comparison, so to speak, but the addition of this will alter the cartridge's frequency response and sound. I would wager very few of us have zero capacitive loading on our MCs.

[i_should_coco]

Another technology that is seeing a resurgence is field coil (electro) magnets. The best of the breed seems to be able to give a sound quality like no other.

My Io Ltd. sounds very different to an Io Gold, which is basically the same thing but with AlNiCo magnets rather than the electromagnet of the Ltd. The rest of the cartridge is the same - body, stylus, cantilever, etc. And yet it sounds like it has significantly lower distortion. It's not an issue of field strength - the Ltd. has a lower field strength. Interestingly, it's very sensitive to the quality of the supply - moving to a battery was an enormous upgrade.

but it's only a magnet, right?

I also have some RCA field coil compression drivers on the way, once they have been rebuilt. Really looking forward to those.