Shuggie's SL-1210 Blog Revived

[leo]

In what way, Leo?

Marco.

Some of the stuff posted on here, I'll step out for now but just wish some of the comments posted was more professional

[Ammonite Audio]

Guys,

I'd like to think that this was very much possible here.

Shuggs, you and I have had quite seriously different experiences with the Techy, with both of us arguing robustly to defend our point of view, but it's never turned into a 'war'. As far as I'm concerned, both of us have shown respect for the other's valid experiences. That is precisely what this forum is about and attempts to facilitate.

All this is subjective.

However, the reason why Dave's a bit pissed off is because you're attempting to use objective data to bolster your subjective viewpoint by suggesting that, technically, the design of the Hynes PSU is somehow 'superior' to that of the Time Step - that, Shuggs, is a whole different ball game. You are putting Dave in a very difficult position.

In effect, you've taken your argument out of the subjective arena, where we're all qualified to comment, and where no-one is 'right' or 'wrong', into an arena that is based largely around fact supported by measurements. Therefore it's only natural that Dave will forcefully defend his design to the death, as I'm sure Paul would equally, were he here. The only genuine fact in terms of this argument is that both designs will work superbly well in different applications.

If you want to offer the view that in your opinion, and in your system, the Hynes PSU is superior to the Time Step (which is absolutely fine), then unless you're qualified to do otherwise, your argument must be based solely from a subjective viewpoint. Leave debates on technicalities to others who are better qualified.

Do you see what I'm saying?

Marco.

Thank you to Marco for, well …... moderating. I can see now that I owe Dave Cawley an apology for carrying a perfectly valid subjective comparison between two PSU products into a separate and unnecessary argument about technicalities. I regret that, and the tone of some of the comments that followed.

I am not so arrogant as to think that the development of the Time Step PSU did not involve a great deal of expertise and work on Dave Cawley’s part – it clearly did - and I would like to recognise that expertise in respect of these direct drive decks and how they work together with other audio bits and pieces. Any implication from my posts that the Time Step PSU is in any way just another LM317 based supply is wholly unintended and regretted; similarly my ill-advised attempts to explain how the LM317 might be inferior to other discrete regulator technologies.

So, if I may return to the beginning, a tale of two power supplies, it is clear that a well-engineered external supply will improve the performance of the SL-1210 markedly. Since I own both the Time Step and Paul Hynes SR3 PSUs, I can attest that both qualify in this respect.

It is critical, though, to understand that I asked Paul Hynes to supply a 23.4v power supply that would be suitable for the Kenwood, but would adjust to 21v so that I could try it on the Technics. He looked at the Kenwood and Technics schematics and confirmed that the SR3 would do the job. He did not sell me a “Technics SL-1210 Power Supply” – in fact he sells no such thing, just high-end audio amplification and power supply upgrades that are suitable for a whole range of applications. This distinction is important to bear in mind.

Anyone reading this thread from the start will know that the SL-1210 pretty much left me unmoved up until now. In particular, to my ears the sound was rather mechanical and uninvolving, although improved by playing with feet and mats. This is why the previous owner sold it on to me almost brand new, so I am not the only one! It has been suggested that my Rega based arm was probably the cause of this musical ‘greyness’, but since the very same arm and cartridge worked well on my other DD deck, I did not subscribe to this view (although I do note the arguments made by Marco and Dave Cawley regarding synergy between components).

My opinion of the SL-1210 improved after getting the Time Step PSU, which did significantly lift the deck’s performance, particularly the portrayal of detail which was sometimes quite startling; however it still did not satisfy me in the same way that my Kenwood KD-770D did (when fitted with the same arm and cartridge), with its easy going musicality (maybe a trite term, but it reflects the harmonious, colourful and coherent sound of that deck). Then I got the Paul Hynes SR3: the Kenwood responded to the Paul Hynes PSU in quite the opposite way that I had expected – the sound became much more clinical, with stunning stability and remarkable portrayal of detail, but the easy musicality had gone, even if in HiFi terms it was clearly better. So, this was the cue to get the Technics down from the back bedroom and try it with the Paul Hynes PSU, adjusted down to the correct voltage.

Now the tables were turned. I could hardly believe what I was hearing, in that the Technics was now sounding pretty much as I’d hoped the Kenwood might with a new PSU. Put simply, there was a tonal richness and a free-breathing nature to the sound that was not there before, to add to the positive qualities already listed. Swapping PSUs back and forth confirmed what I was hearing – that greyness quite disappeared when the Paul Hynes PSU was connected. Now I rather like this Technics deck; and I shall be looking to re-plinth the Kenwood to try to bring its performance up to where I thought it would be at this point.

So, that is where I wish this story had started and ended, had I chosen my words more carefully. In my system (listed below), the Technics performs significantly better, according to my priorities and tastes, with the Paul Hynes PSU than with the Time Step PSU. Others with different listening priorities may rate them the other way round, and if my bake-off in August goes ahead, there will be an opportunity for everyone there to experience both of these PSUs for themselves.

I hope that now comes across more reasonably.

[Dave Cawley]

I think this goes to prove the holistic envelope.

A totally Timestep/Sound Hi Fi system is good, but mix it and you could be in trouble.

But what about the future? our PSU is complimentary to the new bearing, the new platter and the new top plate and the new???. Only Timestep knows what the future will hold................

Regards



Dave

[MartinT]

our PSU is complimentary to the new bearing, the new platter and the new top plate and the new???.

You're just teasing now

[Ammonite Audio]

Here's a question - does the noticeable 'give' in the SL-1210's platter mean that the platter itself is flexing when prodded, or is it the bearing? I suspect it's the platter, which surely must be one aspect of the deck that could be improved? Just idle thoughts, but I'd be interested to hear some opinions.

[NRG]

It is most likely a combination of the bearing and the plinth or sub chassis...as the motor is bolted to the top plate or sub chassis the main flex will be in that area...

[Ammonite Audio]

I am looking at either Sat 22 August, or Sun 23 August for the DD 'table bake-off, in the Farnborough (Hants) area. Because I shall be using one of our small lecture rooms, there is room for up to 12 people; also other gear that folks may wish to bring along.

Could I have an indication of who may be interested, and which day is better for the majority?

Although titled a DD bake-off, I do hope that a few good belters will be there, too.

Many thanks

Shuggie

[Marco]

Nice one, Shuggs. I'll need to see what I'm up to (as I'm in the middle of house redecorating at the moment), but I'd certainly love to be there. Will keep you posted

Marco.

[MartinT]

Unfortunately I'm away on that date. Shame as Farnborough is just down the road from me.

[Marco]

Hi Shuggs,

Does it absolutely *have* to be those dates?

I thought perhaps it might be a better idea to propose a few different dates, some maybe a little further ahead than August, and thrash out a mutually suitable one amongst those who had intended to come... Would that be possible instead?

Marco.