Your views

[Puffin]

I'm completely bonkers and I love it. No not being bonkers, well actually I do like being as mad as a brush, but I meant to say I love AOS!!!

[Marco]

You're off yer nut, boy, but you fit in just nicely

Our latest new member seems to like it, too:

I have been enjoying reading the threads here at TAOS for quite a while, and I think it would be only proper to say hello and introduce myself. My name is Dag and I live in a small town a few miles north of Oslo, Norway.

I wish to thank you for a great forum, and thanks to everybody who has been contributing to the highly interresing "Mod your Beresford 7520" Thread.

What I'm noticing a lot is people lurking for a while, checking us out thoroughly, and then joining and taking part. If we didn't pass the 'test' they wouldn't join. That for me, despite all its 'faults', is the sign of a successful, and growing, forum

Marco.

[Beechwoods]

earlier in the thread you asked if I could put things a bit clearer and I think I now can - AOS feels like a pub in oulton I went into when I was young - not quite the village of the dammed but a definite sense that the regulars crowded round the dartboard had a say in most things and didnt encourage others to contribute (not by direct action but more by accident due to complexity of structure, rigidness of mindset and an overall feeling of dictatorship) nothing wrong with this but it does end up with me visiting here less often and going back to other fora

Hi Darren. I thought I'd post my thoughts. I now have the role of 'Administrator' but I wasn't here at the start. I'm actually member #320. AOS is, with the exception of occasional posts on the Vintage Radio Restoration forum, the only audio forum I've really spent any time in. I joined back in May last year because I liked the vibe here. I was made to feel immediately welcome, despite having no hi-fi credentials, just a mad passion for tape, reels and cassette. I've seen that immediate welcome gievn to many other new members time and again here. I have no agenda when I say I really don't get the characterisation of AOS being something from The Whicker Man.

There are regulars here. I think you'll find that in most communities and forums. The membership and active users are self-selecting - just like on the first few weeks of school, though, members have to make an effort to get involved - to post - but AOS really is the kind of place where you will be given the space to settle. No-ones going to rip into you for liking the wrong kind of music, or listening to it on the wrong kind of kit. I feel that there is a real culture of doing right by others here. The only time that hackles get raised is when there's a whiff of trolling (argumentative behaviour designed to wind someone up)...

if you are serious about making this place a bigger force on the hifi scene then you do perhaps need to engage in some honest appraisal of how it all works and how to get new members to start posting - think deep south inbreeding - you may end up with crooked green teeth!

We'd love this place to be a bigger force on the hi-fi scene, but none of us on the team would consider selling out to a suburban homogeneity to do so. AOS is a great community. It rejects a lot of the bullshit posturing, willy waving and confrontational rhetoric that seems common elsewhere on hi-fi forums. AOS wouldn't be AOS without being different, and part of that difference is it's more village-type atomosphere. We use our own names, we have the courtesy of remembering to use them whenever we can. It's less like a web forum and more like an old-school club. So be it.

We're getting loads of new members through the door, internationally and locally, and they're posting, so I hardly think our village is the village of the damned.

take a look at any thread on here and you will see the management team take up a goodly percentage of the posts and usually end up directing the direction of the thread in some way

I don't help run this forum for a living. I do it because I think it's a great place to talk about music and hi-fi. The same goes for Steve, Marco and the rest of the Mods. No-one's trying to 'direct' the discussion; any more than Chris Grand Wazoo, Dave DSJR, Barry.d.Hunt, Steve Aquapiranha, MartinT, Brian Labarum, Dave&Sue - or any of our other regular posters - do.

not looking to criticis but as you asked I thought it only fair to respond - having been here a month or so now I am sure its got too many rooms and the titles are difficult - what are the social clubs about for instance - why have em if they are not working?

The Social Clubs thing just didn't work out. The software upgrade in Feb made them so difficult to find and check that they've never been used since. When I get the chance I'll be shutting them down cleanly. I think it's far better that we - the members - make the main forum as interesting as possible, and diverting energy into the Social Groups detracts from that. The reason why they've not been closed down earlier, is because they're the bit of the forum that is user controlled. I felt reticent for a long while about closing down something that allowed members to set up their own groups. If future versions of the v-Bulletin software make it easier to make Social Groups work we might try it again but for now I agree; best left.

I think I have been here long enough now to know this post will be rationalised away as the others seem to have but I chuck it in as a last ditch effort to get you guys to relook at the AOS and think about a change or at least tweak of direction.

So what would you suggest in terms of tweaks?

I see your points above, but the keys points seem to be:

• regulars crowded round the dartboard had a say in most things and didnt encourage others to contribute
• get new members to start posting - think deep south inbreeding
• the management team take up a goodly percentage of the posts
• too many rooms, and the titles are difficult

I'm not rationalising them away but the first two points make no sense given the number of new members through the doors and the way new members are getting involved and treated. The third assumes that the admin team shouldn't enjoy contributing to the forum, like other members.

Your fourth has been made before. I'm personally not sure it would change the forum significantly to rationalise a couple of the lesser used rooms, but the subtitles of the forums (ie. Private Exhibitions Advertise equipment and accessories for sale. Non-trade ads only) does help clarify their contents.

This has been a longer note than I had intended. I sure don't want you to think that we don't give the comments raised here due consideration...

[The Grand Wazoo]

Darren,
Don't be discouraged by not being a regular - we all started like that! I remember when Beechy first appeared & now he's management! You only become a regular (if that's what you want from a forum) by getting stuck in & posting.

I actually hate fora, but this one is different & it's the only one I ever pay any attention to. I just can't stand the problems caused by the point scoring crap spouted on so many other examples of the type. As far as I know, I've been involved in perhaps the two biggest bust ups on here but I'm still here posting almost every day.

The answer to the perception of there being too many rooms is to read the sub-title which explains exactly whats in each room.

If you post, you will be treated as a real human being and an equal, no matter what your taste in music or hi-fi, who you are, or the value or type of your gear.

Cheers

[symon]

earlier in the thread you asked if I could put things a bit clearer and I think I now can - AOS feels like a pub in oulton I went into when I was young - not quite the village of the dammed but a definite sense that the regulars crowded round the dartboard had a say in most things and didnt encourage others to contribute (not by direct action but more by accident due to complexity of structure, rigidness of mindset and an overall feeling of dictatorship) nothing wrong with this but it does end up with me visiting here less often and going back to other fora

This is the hardest bit to explain, but I'll give it a go. AOS does have a mindset, and there is nothing wrong with that because it is a mindset developed from huge enthusiasm and passion. It is also a mindset being established by forceful presenters. It is easy to be swept along and opposing arguments are challenged very forcefully, as is any opposition to the basis of the mindset.
The problem is one of perception because the force of the argument can make people think that there is a form of dictatorship going on. Actually, I just think it is strongly held and strongly defended beliefs and opinions which reflect the current state of play for key members here. For example, someone saying that Tannoy speakers are rubbish, flat, grey bits of cardboard would be in for a very rough ride! The interesting thing is that the discussions would probably make more sense and be less dramatic/threatening in real life.
So, I suppose I am saying that the limitations of the internet are causing problems of perception.
I'm not trying to speak for Darren here. I am speaking for myself and the understanding I have of issues Darren has raised.
Would I change anything? I'm not sure. Maybe I'll come back to this at the end.

I think I have been here long enough now to know this post will be rationalised away as the others seem to have but I chuck it in as a last ditch effort to get you guys to relook at the AOS and think about a change or at least tweak of direction.

rgds
darren

This is interesting because it touches on a bugbear of mine that I do not feel strongly enough about yet to act upon, but now is a good time to raise it.
I think there is a strong element of... I was going to say defenciveness, but it's not that, it's more an occassional blindness to other points of view/experience (I can hear the indrawn breaths already! ) What I mean is that when someone raises a 'criticism' of the site, it can result in quite a heavy barrage of return criticism and occasionally descends into a rare argument of truly ugly proportions (for here, that is). There have been comments made in this part of the forum which have met with blank incomprehension, a bit of rudeness followed by a huge dollop of over-reaction. I agree with the decision to edit the thread to remove the whole sorry spectacle, but it did leave me wondering why this thread is here. Views are asked for, but then poo-poohed and destroyed very quickly. It is possible to get the impression that views might be requested but they won't be listened to.
I'm trying to hedge what I am saying and probably failing. It can be very difficult to explain what a problem might be. If the 'owners' of the site don't agree with the raised problem there is a tendancy to dismiss the issue and discredit it - turning the issue around and making it a problem with the user and not the site. This is unfortunate because it can prevent people putting forward ideas and issues. It certainly makes me think twice. I think what is happening is the same force of enthusiasm and passion that forms part of the discussion of hi fi components is also applied here. It can come across as being dismissive.
So, what to suggest? Learn some diplomacy for this particular part of the forum? Maybe. I think it is worth reflecting on the fact that just because 'you' don't see/understand/have the same problem with the site that someone else, doesn't mean it isn't a problem for someone else. It's fine if you don't want to do anything about it, but don't be so brutal in saying this.

I suspect this will raise some interesting discussion. It is not meant as an attack. I hope it comes across as the reflections of someone who does come to the site regularly, even if I don't contribute as much as others yet. I'm the quiet one sitting the corner of the pub watching people over his pint of Spitfire.
There aren't a lot of suggested improvements because I think some of the problems are just perception, and a moment's thought will make that clear. But, there is a need to be aware that forceful argument and constant promotion of a particular mindset is not always perceived in a benign way.

I would welcome responses to this rather long post as I'm not too sure I have explained myself well enough to be understand in a positive way.
I do like it here. There have been moments when I have been put off by some attitudes. But, that is the nature of this place and I am learning to understand it more. I don't mean to be discouraging. I want to be helpful, to help this rather odd but welcoming and friendly place get along and thrive.

Erm, yeah.

[symon]

Bah - I can see that I'm going to become a regular just through clarifying and explaining my last post. meh!
I'm quite happy here really! I am a member of one or two other hi-fi fora. I don't post there. I post here, and like the 'village' community.

I'll hush now. I've written enough already!

[Beechwoods]

There have been comments made in this part of the forum which have met with blank incomprehension, a bit of rudeness followed by a huge dollop of over-reaction. I agree with the decision to edit the thread to remove the whole sorry spectacle, but it did leave me wondering why this thread is here. Views are asked for, but then poo-poohed and destroyed very quickly. It is possible to get the impression that views might be requested but they won't be listened to.

Hi Peter - thanks for your comments. There's lots there and I'll read them more thoroughly tomorrow, but on this one key point... you shouldn't judge the team on the basis of that one incident - this area is for open and constructive discussion, and members should always feel free to post their ideas and suggestions, as long as it's not rude things about me!

[symon]

I appreciate that Nick. I know that was a one off. But, it was a bad end to something that wasn't going particularly well before then.
Besides, I have no rude things to say about you (well, not until I get the Lenco back! )

[Spectral Morn]

Hi Darren

I am very new only having joined in Nov last year. I like the vibe here and the fact that very substantial thinking on a wide range of audio topics dwells here, both among the management team (including Admin, super mods and mods [like me]) and the regular and less regular membership.

The Art of Sound is a forum with depth unlike many/most others, and one in which those behind the scenes try to be active daily to help create discussion, diseminate information and encourage the members in their audio journeys and encourage them in their postings here. My particular title is Genius Facilitator mod.... I concentrate mainly on the Strokes of Genius section and since being promoted to full mod (recently)the main audio sections of the forum are areas of responsibility too (however SOG is my first love). The main reason I picked the name/title I have, is that I wanted to involve members in writing more in depth items for Strokes of Genius( to facilitate its growth) and other sections of the forum. If I spot anything interesting I will ask the member who interests me (it could be a product or an expertise in a subject I feel should be shared) to write a review. I commission items and encourage members to do the best they can. I could post examples here but to be honest I am just back from a trip to Scotland and I am a bit tired but Barry D Hunt and Grand Wazoo have both been asked recently by me to write items (both brilliantly)....I have also asked many others too, but in their own time their work will be forth coming. I will ask by PM or in the post that takes my interest.

I didn't want SOG to be my sole vehicle for writing reviews (no hogging or dictatorship) so I ask others to take part regularly(and I have noticed other members taking on that role too recently). However its up to them if they do or not (I am not a bully)..so far most have...Thank you those who have.

So Darren I struggle to see that AOS is a dictatorship...I don't think it is.


Regards D S D L

[symon]

- this area is for open and constructive discussion, and members should always feel free to post their ideas and suggestions,

I will stick my neck out here and question this. This is probably the biggest area I would like to see done better. Views are requested but they are not always received well. The impression I have is that they are dealt with in a bad way. I would hope that ideas could be received in a more positive way, even if they will not be acted on. I'm finding this difficult to explain and it's coming across as much more confrontational than I had hoped.

this is a good place and I want it to be as good as it can be.