Alternative platters ?

[RobbieGong]

Ditto!

So where does the (heavier) MKII Funk platter sit within that theory?

Marco.

Good question. I guess there's heavy and then there's heavy in terms of good mass and bad mass - Mikes original metal platters are very heavy / weigh a good amount compared to the stock techie platter. How much does the original funk weigh Marco ? ie: is it close to the techie original ? Mikes ETP is definately a fair bit lighter than his metal ones but heavier than the stock techie platter.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Technically it was, but it wasn't being used in contexts such as this as, essentially, it needed a programmed processor to be integrated, ie. a separate computing element..

Couldn't this be done now as a regulator mod onto the PCB? In fact, can such a thing be purchased?

[Wakefield Turntables]

Put it this way you would not want to drop my platter on your toes. You'd be coming to see me on a profession basis to perform a digital athrodesis for fractured phalanges

[Marco]

Thats my deck that needs viagra to get it upto 45rpm! To be fair I dont actually play 45's or 12"'s, and I must admit that whilst the pitch stabiliser has been removed it can easily be replaced. I did do a little tinkering with the 35/45 RPM selector when I got rid of the strobe light and several LED's that I thought I didnt need. This was when I went through a process of getting rid of everything off the PCB and any any additional "garments" that I thought were surplus to requirement. The 1210's party trick is copious bass which is perfect for my system and may give credence to the theory of extra mass giving extra bass, this is useful for the music genre's that I prefer. I dont think I can be arsed buying another platter, I like what I've got. I'm finding I'm spending more time with my valve system at the moment.

Lol - I had a feeling it was yours, Andy... The removal of the slider was a bit of a giveaway! So when are you upgrading to the ETP or a Funk platter? Oh, and most importantly, why wasn't this bake-off reported on the forum? It's something we'd all loved to have read about....

Anyway, well done for demonstrating just how good a modded Technics can sound to a well-known, hard-bitten sceptic/belt-drive fanboy (no offence, Simon)!!

Aside from the arm and cartridge, our T/Ts share a lot in common. One thing I've discovered, and which becomes obvious when anyone actually listens to a judiciously modded SL-1200/1210, and makes some proper comparisons, is just how much of a neutral platform it allows the partnering arm and cartridge.

Quite simply, with 99% of the common failings of a turntable removed, one gets to hear not only what the partnering arm and cartridge are actually capable of, but pretty much exactly what's on your records! In that sense, Martin's T/T or mine, built largely from the same foundations as yours, will simply offer a different flavour on the same theme.

I would truly love to take either your T/T (when playing 33rpm records, lol) and/or Martin's and mine along to an event such as was held recently at Windsor, and put them in direct competition with the ridiculously priced 'badge-fi' T/Ts on demo - then watch the snobby exhibitors of the latter cry into their soup!!

Marco.

[YNWaN]

The fact that a 1200/1210 fails to reach speed at 45rpm concerns me because it inherently operates in a different manner to most (pretty much all) other turntables. The 1200/1210 uses a load sensing feedback loop that increases torque as it senses load and continuously references speed against a synthesised ideal. If it cannot achieve 45rpm it strongly suggests that is unable to generate sufficient torque. It is often stated that the Technics has huge torque but this isn't strictly true, What it actually has is the ability to increase torque as it senses increased load - most of the time torque is quite low. In addition, the speed correction circuit cannot be switched out and does not default if the operating parameters exceed it's expectations. If the deck physically cannot achieve 45rpm it is right on the edge of being able to make the corrections it wishes to (beyond its abilities at 45rpm and it is highly unlikely that the impact would not be felt at 33.3rpm).

[Wakefield Turntables]

Lol - I had a feeling it was yours, Andy... The removal of the slider was a bit of a giveaway! So when are you upgrading to the ETP or a Funk platter? Oh, and most importantly, why wasn't this bake-off reported on the forum? It's something we'd all love to have read about....

Anyway, well done for demonstrating just how good a modded Technics can sound to a well-known, hard-bitten sceptic/belt-drive fanboy!!

Aside from the arm and cartridge, our T/Ts share a lot in common. One thing I've discovered, and which becomes obvious when anyone actually listens to a judiciously modded SL-1200/1210, and makes some proper comparisons, is just how much of a neutral platform it allows the partnering arm and cartridge.

Quite simply, with 99% of the common failings of a turntable removed, one gets to hear not only what the partnering arm and cartridge are truly capable of, but pretty much exactly what's on your records! In that sense, Martin's T/T or mine, built largely from the same foundations as yours, will simply offer a different flavour on the same theme.

I would truly love to take either your T/T (when playing 33rpm records, lol) and/or Martin's and mine along to an event such as was held at Windsor, and put them in direct competition with the ridiculously priced 'badge-fi' T/Ts and watch the exhibitors of the latter cry into their soup!!

Marco.

I dont think I will be upgrading thats just the point. For the time being I'm happy. I'm glad Simon liked my deck and TBH there wasn't really a bake off. Simon fetched me a very impressive piece of kit over for a listen. I think people should listen a little more closely to what Simon and Mark have to say they have some great ideas. My own personal theory with regards the 1210's evolution is simplification of the PCB and removal of all the excessive crap that's on the PCB. If I had the knowledge I'd mod the PCB even further and remove the ability to spin at 45 rpm, a simple dedicated circuit which was specifically designed to spin as accurately as possible at 33rpm which could take into consideration increased platter mass (i.e. Mark's idea) via fuzzy logic. What I need is a simple PCB with these features which can be soldered directly to my PCB under my MN platter.

[YNWaN]

Couldn't this be done now as a regulator mod onto the PCB? In fact, can such a thing be purchased?

No, absolutely not. Adding such a thing would require an actual computer to be attached full time (and a total redesign of the circuit). A regulator is an entirely different thing. You can't 'bolt on' fundamental design decisions in the way you suggest.

----------------

Fuzzy logic is, in principal, quite a simple idea (but complex to implement). What one has to bear in mind is that digital deals in absolutes, on or off, open or closed, act or do nothing. Now these decisions can be broken up in to may thousands of steps and decided on very quickly, but no overriding application is included. Fuzzy logic enables an additional algorithm to be applied; so instead of if A+ is detected apply B- until A+ is no longer detected, you can have, if A+ is detected apply half the opposite force for a fixed time followed by a quarter force etc. The Technics circuit is a relatively simple circuit in terms of control technology in that it senses an element of drift and compensates for it. It does not include a model of the actual lossy forces that the physical system has, it exists entirely in the electronic world. When it applies correction it assumes that this is made instantly, if it is not it continues to act against that and continues to do so even it is unable to.

[Andrei]

I would truly love to take either your T/T (when playing 33rpm records, lol) and/or Martin's and mine along to an event such as was held recently at Windsor, and put them in direct competition with the ridiculously priced 'badge-fi' T/Ts on demo - then watch the snobby exhibitors of the latter cry into their soup!!
Marco.

You can book me a place as well ... It would be worth the trip. One question though: have you kept a count of how much it cost to get your TT up to its current level?

[Marco]

The fact that a 1200/1210 fails to reach speed at 45rpm concerns me because it inherently operates in a different manner to most (pretty much all) other turntables. The 1200/1210 uses a load sensing feedback loop that increases torque as it senses load and continuously references speed against a synthesised ideal. If it cannot achieve 45rpm it strongly suggests that is unable to generate sufficient torque. It is often stated that the Technics has huge torque but this isn't strictly true, What it actually has is the ability to increase torque as it senses increased load - most of the time torque is quite low. In addition, the speed correction circuit cannot be switched out and does not default if the operating parameters exceed it's expectations. If the deck physically cannot achieve 45rpm it is right on the edge of being able to make the corrections it wishes to (beyond its abilities at 45rpm and it is highly unlikely that the impact would not be felt at 33.3rpm).

Sure, but all of the above assumes the use of a high-mass platter, not entirely compatible with the T/T's control circuitry.

I can assure you that my T/T, with the much lighter Funk platter fitted, has no trouble whatsoever in achieving 45rpm, as indeed measurements have shown (not mine incidentally). The same also applies, in that respect, when the stock platter is in situ.

How else would the Technics have become such an icon in clubs and discos worldwide, where 90% of the time it would've been spinning 7 and 12" singles, if it couldn't do it accurately?

Furthermore, measurements aside, I play 12" singles often (and indeed own many hundreds of them), so if there was a problem reproducing them accurately at 45rpm, I can assure you that I'd have noticed!

Marco.

[Marco]

You can book me a place as well ... It would be worth the trip. One question though: have you kept a count of how much it cost to get your TT up to its current level?

Yes, a damn sight less than the cost of, say, a Continuum Caliburn, or an Air-Force One (which Martin listened to at Windsor)!!

Marco.