Alternative platters ?

[Oldpinkman]

In the case of the MNB against the stock,i would argue that there is a night and day difference,which is immediate and doesn't require lots of listening time! I was dubious about all the claims at first but having taken the plunge i can see it was wholly justified!

Whether the platters offer the same level of upgrade i don't know,so will be interesting hearing people's thoughts on that!

If you were auditioning 2 pairs of speakers would you swap back and forth between them - say at least half a dozen times? Did you do that with the 2 bearings? (I MUST emphasise this is in NO way intended to imply that there is anything wrong with the MN bearing, or what anyone is hearing. Just supporting Macca's point that we operate some variable criteria in the way we evaluate equipment and the equipment we evaluate)

[Marco]

Recalling Pink Triangle introduced the world to the impedance match concept in the guise of the acrylic platter (obvious).
Martin Colloms then went forth, measured and produced results that showed a nicely damped response to a pulse.
What was not obvious was the actual effect that this transformation achieved. But it did sound "good".

If we look at FXR, measurements show a similar, order of magnitude improvement in the measurements.
Again, we extrapolate to a highly beneficial sonic experience.
But again, can we put our finger on just what we are going to experience? Not in the least. We only know we ought to be in for a treat.

Now, what about dynamic wow? The hypothesis seemed reasonable.
(Briefly: with 2g the minimum force required to keep the stylus in the groove at all times, track a 3kHz reference tone, apply a 2g load (a dustbug set to 2g!) and measure any drift)
Look! The results indeed showed problems and on that basis, deleterious conclusions were drawn on the outcome. (In the hysteria surrounding the LP12, the damage to Pink’s credibility cannot be overstated).
Only this time, there was no justification whatsoever. Although the full analysis is too long to provide here, try this gem:

In the publication, all turntables slowed (as they ought); all that is except DDs, which measured zero! Nil. Nix. Nada. I.e. Perfect. (Go dig out your original HiFi Choices)
What happened? Given the settling time, the servos had kicked in and pulled the platters up to speed. Moral: Measure at your peril!

Back to the thread: Having agreed that the original platter is indeed a weak link, we want to develop an improved one. But designers have their individual approaches.
One can indeed attempt to measure reflected energy but is that all there is to it? What about (as mentioned) the effect the servo has on the individual inertias?
Then we have the support quotient (for want of a label) to consider.
Here’s the problem: Regrettably, the ear, engineering solutions and measurements all travel along disparate paths, crossing fleetingly here and there.

Just look to cars and their setups when it comes to the driving experience. I like this car but you prefer that (and so just where does that leave the measurements?)
Similarly in our individual listening environments and systems, some will enhance and some will detract.

When developing a product, for what it’s worth, I bring to bear my 30 years experience into the design phase (creativity), develop interesting measurement methods - which I don’t always disclose (rigour) - and listen. Much tinkering and if I’m happy, the cake is baked. (The blend).

Ultimately you are left with cutting a slice, trying it when I hope you like it.
That’s subjectivism.

Excellent post, Arthur. On the subject of measurements, in relation to what we can actually hear, I concur entirely.

Marco.

[NRG]

At least with cars, measurements are offered even if you don't base your buying criteria on them or place any importance on them...many after market car performance parts have measurements to back up the claims as well but HiFi? No, you must believe and trust your ears, no alternative criteria is offered.

[Oldpinkman]

At least with cars, measurements are offered even if you don't base your buying criteria on them or place any importance on them...many after market car performance parts have measurements to back up the claims as well but HiFi? No, you must believe and trust your ears, no alternative criteria is offered.

I agree. And the problem is, as I noted before, that today - and in particular in the "tweaking" market - it is so hard to audition. The ears are not the final arbiter. People take a punt or not based on what one or more people on a forum say.

Of course, cars aren't that easy. How many sets of tyres do you give a 200 mile test drive in assorted road conditions before choosing which ones to have fitted? Another frustration of mine. And another area where measurements help.

[YNWaN]

I think Martin Colloms tests on record damping, whilst interesting, were inherently flawed because the test rig did not sufficiently simulate a stylus tracking a groove. Effectively a weight was dropped on to the surface of the record from a fixed height and the impulse measured.

[Marco]

+1.

Except that in this instance, one really doesn't have to 'try hard' at all, or become embroiled in any convoluted comparisons, to hear the difference an MN bearing produces over the stock Technics bearing.

Think of it in terms of introducing any new component change (new source or amplifier, for example), which when introduced into one's system, immediately and irrefutably effects a no-brainer sonic improvement. Rest assured that this is similarly veritable 'night and day' territory

Marco.

[Marco]

At least with cars, measurements are offered even if you don't base your buying criteria on them or place any importance on them...many after market car performance parts have measurements to back up the claims as well but HiFi? No, you must believe and trust your ears, no alternative criteria is offered.

Yes, but that's far from always being the case, Neal. There are numerous pieces of audio equipment tested (rather thoroughly) all the time in the mags. If specs are your 'thang', then one only has to consult the technical performance section, next to the subjective review, in the likes of HFN or Stereophile.

If you're talking about aftermarket upgrades from small, specialist manufacturers, such as Mike New and Funk, then that's a different kettle of fish. However, at the end of the day all that's really required to judge their efficacy is a good pair of ears, the confidence and gumption to think for oneself, without relying on the promptings of others, and a suitably revealing system

Marco.

[kininigin]

If you were auditioning 2 pairs of speakers would you swap back and forth between them - say at least half a dozen times? Did you do that with the 2 bearings? (I MUST emphasise this is in NO way intended to imply that there is anything wrong with the MN bearing, or what anyone is hearing. Just supporting Macca's point that we operate some variable criteria in the way we evaluate equipment and the equipment we evaluate)

Auditioning 2 pairs of speakers is completly different as far as i can see!! So if i did have two pairs to listen to,then yes i would,for as long as possible! Unless of course one was so obviously inferior,that auditionoing side by side would be a joke!! As is the case with the stock and MNB

So no,i didn't swap between the two,i didn't need to! One is clearly inferiour to the other and i've got better things to do than swap things around when i already know which one i prefer!!

[Oldpinkman]

If you're talking about aftermarket upgrades from small, specialist manufacturers, such as Mike New and Funk, then that's a different kettle of fish. However, at the end of the day all that's really required to judge their efficacy is a good pair of ears, the confidence and gumption to think for oneself, without relying on the promptings of others, and a suitably revealing system

Marco.

And the chance to borrow both (or a shop that stocks them!)

[Marco]

Or when the manufacturer and/or dealer inhabits your favourite Internet forum and is more than willing to send you a sample of such to audition at home, in your own system (for an extended period of time), prior to purchase

That is how the likes of Martin and me make the vast majority of our buying decisions!

Marco.