Turntable...decisions oh decisions.

[Oldpinkman]

Believe and enjoy what you like, but I am convinced the LP12 was one of the great cons. It wasn't so much it was bad (although the setup nonsense was a nonsense for a consumer product). It just was basically the same as so many others and offered nothing new. It's sound derived from its felt mat (everyone was rubber before that) and its "weightyness". But nobody ever played an LP12. They played an LP12 with an arm and a cartridge on, and it was those components made it better than "ordinary" record players. CD came along and the Linn sound, started to lack detail , imaging....

[walpurgis]

I'd agree!

CD showed the average Hi-Fi user what true, deep, tight bass was for the first time.

Unless you were using top quality reel to reel tape with expensive recordings, bass like that just was not heard, Vinyl recordings were going through a bad period too. From the late seventies and through much of the eighties.

[Andrew B]

I'm not a fan of the LP12 but I can't say I've expereienced the same quality of bass from CD as vinyl. CD always seems lacking in this area to me. Just my experience, so good on anyone who has managed it.

[DSJR]

Believe and enjoy what you like, but I am convinced the LP12 was one of the great cons. It wasn't so much it was bad (although the setup nonsense was a nonsense for a consumer product). It just was basically the same as so many others and offered nothing new. It's sound derived from its felt mat (everyone was rubber before that) and its "weightyness". But nobody ever played an LP12. They played an LP12 with an arm and a cartridge on, and it was those components made it better than "ordinary" record players. CD came along and the Linn sound, started to lack detail , imaging....

Ummm - I don't think that's quite right, with the deepest respect

The LP12 with SME or Grace arms was well balanced. Not as 'clean' as a modern deck, but with G707 and Supex, it made 1970's pop/rock LP's especially, sound really involving to listen to. Classical music the Supex could track (most were good but some were terrible trackers - I have one of each!) sounded three dimensional and highly spacious, and not really in an exaggerated way either. Good setup was essential though, not made better by the fact that no two 1970's/early 80's LP12's were the same to set up. I promise you that skill and EXPERIENCE with these things was highly necessary to get the best from them in this period!

1980 arrives. The Asak had sort-of displaced the Supex, Grace headshells being reamed out to make the bloody thing fit. The sound went lean and spacially 'flatter' for a while, although the internally glued-up Asak 'T' helped control the excesses better. the Grace was being taxed beyond its capabilities by this point - it was a low mass arm designed for mid 70's CD-4 cartridges like the JVC-Z1 for example - and we started using Mission 774's and Hadcocks instead quite often, along with other fashionable low mass arms from AT and Infinity (Black Widow), these working well on a sorted deck. The Nirvana kit came along too...

What totally f****d it was the launch of the Ittok! The arm was more 'solid' and seemed to totally upset the bass performance of the LP12 for a good while. of course, 'we' didn't care about this, since it made an all Linn turntable/speaker system a sellable possibility. Naim amps went harsh toned in their early CB guise and this helped balance the fruity bass out. Music played on this turntable still seemed to major on the emotional and basic clarity levels very well, despite the tone being skewed towards a plump bass. the Asak wasn't a good tracker, so many users avoided playing taxing orchestral, piano or choral works I remember.

Some LP12/Ittok/Asak combo's sounded really good and actually quite neutral, if not as 'easy' as well sorted 'modern' turntable combinations, whereas others were a mess, probably due to a bad plinth more than anything else. The introduction of the karma made things worse, since the Karma was smoother and less spacially flat and 'nasal' sounding as the Asak was increasingly becoming.

It wasn't really until the Cirkus kit for the LP12, that this deck sort of returned to some semblance of neutrality, albeit a little 'dark-toned. The fresh inner hub and main bearing helped with a good number of iffy mid 80's examples which weren't bad enough to replace under warranty when there was a massive issue with thrust-plate hardening, but which were getting too worn in ten years or so regular use.

I could go on and on and on and on and on... but dinner calls, so I'll save you the boredom of further typing

[julesd68]

Supposedly the 'ultimate' LP12 - bids start at £9,995

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Linn-Sonde...item3cd4a84d2a

[Stratmangler]

Supposedly the 'ultimate' LP12 - bids start at £9,995

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Linn-Sonde...item3cd4a84d2a

I chuckled at the bid count - 0 at present

[Oldpinkman]

Briefly - I think my point about the LP12 was related to the "little differences big differences" thread. The LP12 as a floating, metal plattered, felt matted single speed disk spinner did it all well enough. But it didnt really contribute much to the sound - it didn't sound different to other metal plattered standard mat decks. With good arms it did that sound very well. In really simple terms, and this was the big fuss at the time, it didnt sound like the new CD's. I know CD's were harsh but they opened up HiFi to levels of detail and a tonal balance that wasnt there before. And if you've been anywhere near a recording studio, those elements of CD are HiFi and were being missed by "normal" record players. You could like that sound. The LP12 had engineered up doing that sound. But it was basically "old" "non-cd" and "wrong". By contrast, the PT sounded very different, like CD, and that was among the reason many didnt like it. But tonally, in terms of detail, particularly in the mid and treble region, PT sounded lots different, and Anni was the "engineered up" version of that type of sound. So in the same way LP12 made noticeable real improvements on say a Thorens, it still was refining that model (small differences). The PT threw the model out and created a completely alternative (I venture mostly accurate) sound. The Anni engineered that up with small, but still real, and worthwile differences around that new model.

Off to the pool!

[walpurgis]

What totally f****d it was the launch of the Ittok!

I did not get on with the Ittok, despite having mine for a couple of years mounted on my 401. It had allowed a coarseness to come into the presentation at the top end. Also, it absolutely hated Deccas, making them sound particularly thin and scratchy. I bought a good used Mission 774 out of curiosity and it wiped the floor with the Ittok. Needless to say the Linn arm went and the (slightly modded) Mission is still here 25 years on. It works just fine with every cartridge I've tried in it, from high compliance MM, to Deccas and MCs.

[Andrew B]

To me, both CD replay and PT decks sound somewhat "wrong" In the way they portray music. The level of "detail" is forced and it just doesn't hang together like real music. Bass too, is just not convincing in the same way I hear it live.

The LP12 also sounded wrong as it was just too fruity and its pitch was poor to me. I did find it more enjoyable than a PT though and I did find it better than rival decks with suspension and felt mats. It still wasn't the "right bowl of porridge" as far as I was concerned though.

I'm not claiming my "truths" are any more valid than anyone else's but by the same token, I don't accept anyone else's assertions that they are right either. If it works for you, don't worry about others. Just don't expect everyone else to like the same things.

This is why I really have an issue with hifi "experts". When it comes to listening, there can be only one expert and that's the listener.

[Clive197]

To me, both CD replay and PT decks sound somewhat "wrong" In the way they portray music. The level of "detail" is forced and it just doesn't hang together like real music. Bass too, is just not convincing in the same way I hear it live.

I'm not claiming my "truths" are any more valid than anyone else's but by the same token, I don't accept anyone else's assertions that they are right either. If it works for you, don't worry about others. Just don't expect everyone else to like the same things.

This is why I really have an issue with hifi "experts". When it comes to listening, there can be only one expert and that's the listener.

Well said Sir.