Shure M3D - yet another truly great classic cartridge

[SPS]

You'll be "discovering" the Decca FFSS (or whatever it is) next. Another goodie and they don't seem to self-destruct like the London models do...

i have one in my box.. no where near in my view.. its closer to the m97/v15

[Marco]

Steve,

in my view a good level of bass is more important

I agree - most music I listen to is 'beat driven', so bass response is very important. But as with anything else, quality is much more important than quantity. Frankly, I'd rather have no bass than bad bass - deep bass is a bonus, but it must be tightly controlled, and above all, rhythmic and tuneful.

Fortunately, the M3D passes the test. Its qualities in the bass are quite phenomenal. I have never heard such control, power, and authority in the lower registers from any cartridge in the 25+ years I've been into serious hi-fi.

*BUT*, and it's a big 'but'... As you know, getting serious performance from an M3D is not easy. It's about as far from 'plug & play' as you can get! One has to remember that it is from a different era where the thinking in hi-fi was diametrically opposed to that of today. I would advise anyone who's considering obtaining one not to do so unless they have the following:

1) A quality 'classic-style' turntable: i.e. Thorens TD124, Garrard 301/401, SP10, SL-1200/1210, Lenco, etc, on which to accommodate a high-mass tonearm. Modern belt-drive motor units wouldn't cope with the demands of the mass and also a cartridge tracking at 3-4g. 'Dynamic wow', amongst other things, would be a major issue, nor would the M3D fit (and proper alignment be acheived) on headshells partnering the arms normally used on these turntables.

2) As stated, a high-mass arm, preferably with a detachable headshell to facilitate the use of one of the many ultra-high mass detachable headshells on the market (and they'll need to be big, too!) necessary to provide the M3D with something suitable to 'work against' and thus an 'operating environment' which resembles as close as possible the massively constructed broadcast arms that would have partnered it originally.

3) And very importantly, a high quality, neutral sounding MM phono stage, preferably valve, as the (in general) greater musical resolution will help open up the M3Ds top-end and give it more 'air and space'. Also, as neutral and revealing a system as possible to partner it, particularly loudspeakers.

The M3D is a detailed and revealing cartridge (within the boundaries of its frequency range) but it is also 'rich' in terms of tone and with a powerful, deep bass, so any system which has the propensity to sound 'muddy' or 'tubby' and/or already has a bass-rich balance in terms of the cumulative sonic signature imposed by other components will not be suitable.

If you can tick all the boxes above then scour Ebay and find one of these gems for yourself, because trust me, once you've heard what it can do with music, and the magic it teases out of those grooves, you won't want to return to a cold and clinical sounding (in comparison) modern device!

Marco.

[Will]

Steve 51 13500hz for me 63 I'll bring my Visaton horn tweeters to Eggborough if you want, my fostex roll off at 12khz and they sound dead without the tweeters to 35khz, sweeps are single tone only usefull for spotting humps and dips, clean top end adds body too.
I dont think the M3D drops like a stone like my speakers.
You can expect a few questions about OB's I've got some Field Coils comming.
Will.

[Marco]

Will, are you really 63? You don't look it, mate! I'd have pegged you as ten years younger

Marco.

[DSJR]

One day, you guys will realise that LP's don't always have much bass on them (apart from the classic era of 12" singles when most of the eq and limiting was turned off). Adding it back in with a beefy sounding cartridge reminds me of the whole LP12/Ittok era, the deck adding its own character.

I suspect the Decca's do sound a bit like a well loaded V15 - ruler flat response out to 12KHz or so and what's above depending on the stylus and sample of cartridge (I wish I still had those old HiFi Sound mags from the late sixties to scan and post...).

[Marco]

Hi Dave,

One day, you guys will realise that LP's don't always have much bass on them (apart from the classic era of 12" singles when most of the eq and limiting was turned off).

Sorry matey, I know where you're coming from but that's not quite the full story. Yes, some LPs don't have much bass on them for the reasons given, but there are plenty that do, genuinely - and when it's here the M3D makes the most of it!! You must not have a system that is capable of revealing the full (visceral) impact of deep bass notes on recordings to make that statement.

I was just talking to Martin about the live Kraftwerk box set 'Minimum Maximum' on another thread (Andy's Usher one in Strokes of Genius - see here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showt...2415#post42415) and if you play tracks such as 'Dentaku' or 'Electro Kardiogramm' through a good system with big speakers, the deep bass on those tracks is quite phenomenal and will simply pin you to your seat and 'energise' the room! That's what it does in my system. If you're not hearing that type of effect with vinyl, then don't blame the recording 'cos it's there!!

I could name tons of other albums I've got which give a similar effect in terms of bass impact. Shpongle, anyone? In fact, anyone who heard my 1210 playing Massive Attack, amongst other stuff, in the AOS room at the Scalford Hall show would I'm sure testify to the fact that deep bass does exist on vinyl!! 12" singles? Let's not even go there!!!

The M3D handles lower registers in the right way, typically like high quality big speakers with large bass drivers, in that it can sound quite bass-light with some recordings because it only reproduces bass when it's there on the recording, not some false superimposed coloration, but when it is there then you hear it all in its thunderous glory

The DL-103SA also does this, minus an octave or two in comparison...

Adding it back in with a beefy sounding cartridge reminds me of the whole LP12/Ittok era, the deck adding its own character.

No, that's not what is happening at all!! I would never seek to create that sort of euphonic coloration in my system. I'm sure that Steve (SPS) would confirm this, having heard his T/T, cartridge and amp in my system. You obviously don't know me as well as I thought you did!!

You really must pop up to North Wales sometime so I can suitably 'educate' you in the ways of the Marco-boy, and then we won't be having silly conversations like this in future

Marco.

[SPS]

Steve 51 13500hz for me 63 I'll bring my Visaton horn tweeters to Eggborough if you want, my fostex roll off at 12khz and they sound dead without the tweeters to 35khz, sweeps are single tone only usefull for spotting humps and dips, clean top end adds body too.
I dont think the M3D drops like a stone like my speakers.
You can expect a few questions about OB's I've got some Field Coils comming.
Will.

not another ob experimenter...!! will they be at eggborough?

i'll be looking forwards to hearing some field coils.. it will be a first for me..

scott and ed came around on friday night to hear my now not so new baffles

scott said they where the best he'd heard them.
i can't help but want to try and improve things more..
i've been looking at some rather large drivers for the sub 100hz

cheers steve

[DSJR]

Hi Dave,

You obviously don't know me as well as I thought you did!!

You really must pop up to North Wales sometime so I can suitably 'educate' you in the ways of the Marco-boy, and then we won't be having silly conversations like this in future

Marco.

I'd love to come up to see you, but it's out of the question right now. I haven't seen my family in years and I suspect it'll be a funeral that'll bring me up your way ....

To cut deep bass on any record needs LOTS of "land" to contain the squiggles. The groove should often be a bit deeper too, to prevent cheap pickups from jumping (for a OTT example look at the infamous telarc 1812 cut, which had bass down to 18Hz or so).

Most "commercial" LP's (yes, even Kraftwerk) would have the bass mono'd below 80Hz and mostly filtered away below 40Hz or so. This could be re-constituted by a cartridge with a severe rise in response below 30Hz I suppose. Using a massive arm/shell may reduce this to acceptable levels I suspect. I do agree that most LP players out there reproduce "bass" as a distorted 60 - 80Hz bloooooooooooom...........

Sadly I no longer have the ATC 100A's which went flat to 45Hz and with a very gentle rolloff with useful output at 20Hz. The BC2's, although tamed, roll off below 60Hz and there's little there below 40Hz in-room apart from in the cloakroom, where the deeper wavelengths are just audible . I do remember the IMF's we used to sell, which really did have seizemic bass down to 14Hz, enough on a master copy of DSOTM to rattle the windows severely.

I very much respect bigger speakers like yours Marco and would love to hear them (not too loud please, as my ears will no longer take it.. ).

I have my spies out and hope to find an el-cheapo M3D in due course.....

[Marco]

Using a massive arm/shell may reduce this to acceptable levels I suspect. I do agree that most LP players out there reproduce "bass" as a distorted 60 - 80Hz bloooooooooooom...........

Regarding the first point, I guess it must do, as there is no "bloooooooooooom" with the M3D on the Techy/Jelco SA-750D/FR S/5 combo, or indeed with my system as a whole. Quite simply, high-quality direct-drive T/Ts don't do 'bloom' when set-up and partnered properly in the right system: they just reveal exactly what's on the record, full bass notes and all - and so does the M3D

You're welcome to come up to mine any time

Incidentally, only get an M3D when you can say "yes" to all (and I mean ALL) of the prerequisites I listed above, otherwise you're wasting your time and will only end up with a false impression.

Marco.

[NRG]

that is interesting Neil,
what sort of filter did you use to roll of at 12 khz.. with out affecting the treble too much


overtones is quite an interesting subject
i have a few books that cover the subject..

excluding electric music it seems there are not many instruments overtones that extend above 15 k and many commonly used going only up to around 10khz..
there are of course conflicting views.. one book works out the overtones per instrument.

as a comparison far more instruments produce bass notes at under 50hz, which many systems can strugle to reproduce correctly, and usually substituting a little box /port resonace to help things along

i was not saying theres nothing above 12k.. but its of little importance to me..
my hearing extends to 14.5khz, but the volume starts drops off above 12 khz
whilst testing my latest baffles playing test tones, my girl was running about with her ears bleeding at the other end of the house.. in line with what the sound meter was reading...
whilst i could only just hear those tones...

in my veiw a good level of bass is more important

that was my point.. the m3d works for me.... at the age of 51.. and the cartridge just a little younger.. its a good a good match to my ears....


to me... its the cartridge equiv of a globe px4...

Ah! PX4 now your'e talking Steve...

Crikey, if Steve is a youngster at 51 then I'm still in nappies! My hearing is a bit better than 14Khz....but I take your point. Still I think its unwise to just ignore the upper registers as these are sensed more than heard.

My experiments where with the WAD KiT88 and the WAD K5881 PSE. The PSE nested feedback loops can be tweaked to alter the response... or I could have messed about with a LP filter on the input...anyhow tweaking it to 12K had a very noticeable effect, not just the loss of upper freq response but also loss of mid range detail...

This is a great web site showing instrument freq ranges, no fundamentals up in the regions we are talking about (maybe pipe organ get close) but there are harmonics that stretch past 12KHz.

http://www.independentrecording.net/...in_display.htm

Glad you like the M3D, my points aren't meant to dismiss it or your enjoyment of it but to just say there's a lot of upper freq information that will be missed if the roll off point is too low....