Choosing the 'best' turntable and ignoring 'flavours'

[Marco]

I have written the comments below elsewhere on another thread, but decided that it was an important topic which deserved to be looked at in some more detail...

The problem when people decide which turntable is 'best' is the highly subjective nature of their judgement criteria and how they prioritise various aspects of this over others when coming to a conclusion. I am of course no different to anyone else in that respect, but what will always be of paramount importance is which turntable gets the most music from recordings whilst imposing as little of its own character or 'sonic signature' on it as possible. I don't want to hear what the T/T is doing - I just want to hear what's on the record.

Unlike others, and don't get me wrong there's nothing wrong with this, but I am not seduced by the euphonic colorations some other T/Ts imbue on the music, particularly the LP12 and other low-mass belt-drives of its ilk. I can understand people enjoying and becoming used/addicted to this particular sound and then finding more neutral and 'accurate' sounding T/Ts 'tuneless' or not being very good at 'making music', when mostly what's happening is that they're seeking a particular 'flavour', and when that flavour isn't there then it's quite natural to assume that something is missing.

It's rather like removing the sweetness from a cup of tea when you're used to having three spoons of sugar in it, or eating a plain grilled steak, cooked rare, instead of having it well-done and covered in a cream pepper sauce: at first the taste will come as bit of a shock and superficially appear as quite unpleasant, or even somewhat bland in comparison to what you're used to, but in reality all that's happening is you're sampling what the raw ingredients actually taste like when all the 'artificial additives' have been stripped away - and so it is I feel with music, good direct-drive T/Ts or idlers, and their low-mass belt-drive counterparts.

Persevere with the 'rawness' of the presentation of a high quality direct-drive turntable, for example, and the only flavour you'll 'taste', or hear, is that of the music itself... Highly accurate speed stability, and thus vanishingly low coloration, is the root cause of that effect and the main ingredient in the success of this particular 'recipe'. One simply then chooses an arm and cartridge that enhances the quality of the raw ingredients, much like a good gravy does to a Sunday roast, or a beurre noisette on a piece of John Dory

Are we striving for 'flavours' with our turntable choices or simply the revealing of what's on the record with minimal 'artifical additives'?

<Discuss>

Marco.

[foxysounds]

I think you used a very well thought-out analogy... and then ruined it by comparing the tonearm to gravy. After all, when you put gravy on a Sunday roast you taste less of the roast and more of the gravy.

Surely the tonarm and cartridge are components of the meal, not things that change the taste of the meal (or in your words "enhance the quality of the raw ingredients"). Otherwise you've successfully removed the signature of the deck from the music and added the siganture of the tonearm and cartridge instead.

Simon.

[Haselsh1]

This thread is very interesting to me as my next change will be the turntable. OK so I've gotta save for an age now to be able to afford it but when I'm in that fantastic position I hope to make the right choice.

I have to make the decision whether to go with a plastic DJ deck (SL1210 G5) or go with a more Hi-Fi based piece of engineering. The Technics would be the easiest to get as it's around five hundred quid but for a decent serious piece of engineering, the price is high. I intend to keep the Denon DL160 cartridge whatever but my Alphason arm could be ebayed.

The really fortunate thing here is that it'll be some time before I have to make the decision.

[Marco]

Hi Simon,

I think you used a very well thought-out analogy... and then ruined it by comparing the tonearm to gravy. After all, when you put gravy on a Sunday roast you taste less of the roast and more of the gravy.

LOL. I wouldn't want to come round to your place then for Sunday lunch!

No, by "gravy" I mean what's made from the natural meat juices and stock, which is part of the raw ingredients being cooked (chicken, beef, etc) not some artificial aftermarket sauce from a supermarket, or whatever - or 'Bisto'! I can assure you that the gravy, for example, my wife makes for roasts enhances the meat (raw ingredient), thus when applied, you taste the roast even more. If not, then you're doing the gravy wrong!

This is what I was alluding to when I made the comparison with a turntable and the chosen arm and cartridge. Get it right, and both simply build on the strengths of the 'raw' turntable, enhancing its performance, and thus music-making abilities, in same way as good gravy does to roasted meat, but without detracting from or artifically enhancing the raw ingredients.

Pouring, say, a heavy red wine or cream mushroom sauce over the roast would then make the point you made quite correct because it wouldn't be a natural part of the meat (raw ingredient) or cooking process, in the same way as the euphonic coloration an LP12 (and other low-mass belt-drive T/Ts) imbues on the music isn't part of what's on the record. It is simply a 'foreign flavour', which you enjoy or don't.

Do you see my point?

Haselsh (what's your first name, btw?),

You've got some big upgrades to look forward to in future going from a Linn Basik to a fully modified SL-1210!

Marco.

[sc_ita]

Completely in agreement with Marco!
Ciao,
Siro.

[Haselsh1]

You know I love that little emoticon on that previous post supping that pint of what looks like Guinness. I wish my bloody glass would refill like that...!!!

Regarding an SL1210 G5 if I were to buy one, there is no way I would then rip it to pieces to 'improve' what should already be a perfect deck. If however I choose to buy a secondhand LP12 then I of course expect to fit a different tonearm and cartridge. One thing I do like about the Technics as I have heard many, is the neutrality of it's sound. It still doesn't alter the fact that it is merely a plastic DJ deck.

[Peter Stockwell]

One thing I do like about the Technics as I have heard many, is the neutrality of it's sound. It still doesn't alter the fact that it is merely a plastic DJ deck.

It's not plastic. It's cast alloy for the most part. It started life as a hifi deck. I'd take my Crap DJ deck over anything short of a Platine Verdier.

Why should anything that's been built be "perfect" ? Everything is a compromise.

[Marco]

Hi Shaun,

Could you do me a favour and add your name to your signature so that when people read your posts they know whom they are addressing? Ta!

Regarding an SL1210 G5 if I were to buy one, there is no way I would then rip it to pieces to 'improve' what should already be a perfect deck.

I presume you mean a MK5G, which is what I use. The trouble is, it isn't a "perfect deck" (why should it be?) so it needs to be suitably modified to become a serious hi-fi turntable, and when thus modified it is!

One thing I do like about the Technics as I have heard many, is the neutrality of it's sound. It still doesn't alter the fact that it is merely a plastic DJ deck.

You're right about the neutrality of its sound, which is precisely the point I've been making (for reasons given) but personally I don't find the stock ones so neutral sounding. They are severely limited by a poor quality PSU, really crap quality cables (interconnects and tonearm wire), mat, feet, and headshell. The tonearm itself is decent enough but not the best and needs a lot of work before quality MC cartridges can be used. All these things need upgrading before it can be considered as a top-notch hi-fi turntable.

Once done, it will then be far from being a "plastic DJ deck" I can assure you!

Marco.

[griffo104]

I still don't get the big wonder in DJ decks (ok the Technics deck).

I remain just as unimpressed. If Technics feel the deck should be used outside of it's industrial workplace (it's atool for DJs after all ) why don't they produce something ?

I love bacon sandwiches but they taste SO much better with a bit of brown sauce on. I prefer my hifi like that and I'm not convinced a Technics DJ deck, modified or otherwise, give you the full flavour as originally intended.

I'll duck for cover right now

[Peter Stockwell]

I love bacon sandwiches but they taste SO much better with a bit of brown sauce on. I prefer my hifi like that and I'm not convinced a Technics DJ deck, modified or otherwise, give you the full flavour as originally intended.

Too much Brown sauce and everything tastes the same. Haven't had a bacon buttie in years .

The Crap DJ decks didn't start life as DJ decks their origins are as hifi decks. My current deck (SL1210/KAB psu/SME IV/AT33 PTG/Clearaudio nano) is the most versatile I've ever had in terms of what it can playback.