Which Tannoys, folks?

[Marco]

Q "Peter tell me why are your products so expensive?"

A "Because it makes them desirable"

I've never understood that concept or the mindset that falls for it. Expensive means nothing to me unless the title is earned through relevant criteria, other than just price!

Marco.

[montesquieu]

I think you miss both my points David, the Henry Ford mention was a simple one about model engineering - Tannoy may indeed operate at the prestige end of the market but they still follow the same rules around making product choice complicated through sophisticated versioning - unless you buy the top of the line the customer is always making some sort of compromise and there is always a compelling reason to buy the next model up. (Marketing 101).

As for the Audio Note example the range runs from mass produced cheap as chips pretty ordinary gear, to hand-made, no expense spared artisan versions, with kilos of silver wire and the very best caps, for which they charge best part of £100k. I doubt very much if there are any dry joints in the Fifth Element model I spoke about.

[tannoyman]

I think you miss both my points David, the Henry Ford mention was a simple one about model engineering - Tannoy may indeed operate at the prestige end of the market but they still follow the same rules around making product choice complicated through sophisticated versioning - unless you buy the top of the line the customer is always making some sort of compromise and there is always a compelling reason to buy the next model up. (Marketing 101).

As for the Audio Note example the range runs from mass produced cheap as chips pretty ordinary gear, to hand-made, no expense spared artisan versions, with kilos of silver wire and the very best caps, for which they charge best part of £100k. I doubt very much if there are any dry joints in the Fifth Element model I spoke about.

Hi Tom

My reference was to the former flagship Tannoy model the Westminster Royal HE (now superceded)

That's right they do and its the expensive stuff that I am talking about. The silver price is almost irrelevant. If ther is a kilogram of silver in them which I doubt, it's only £600 worth so that's a complete red herring.

Regards

David

[montesquieu]

That's right they do and its the expensive stuff that I am talking about. The silver price is almost irrelevant. If ther is a kilogram of silver in them which I doubt, it's only £600 worth so that's a complete red herring.

And the effort to turn lumps of silver into workable annealed wire, and wind it, and select and create decent core material, not to mention the initial transformer design, that's free is it?

To say there's £600 silver in it therefore it's a ripoff is rather an extreme over-simplification. I'm sure no company would want to launch anything that expensive on the market without SERIOUS R&D behind it which is hard to recoup on small volume production.

Market positioning via pricing is also Marketing 101 BTW and your point there about price and desirability is pretty much a given.

But anyway the point I was making was all about artisan vs mass produced construction, you may not like AN but even you would surely concede that not all of their kit, both low volume high and and mass-produced ordinary gear, is made to the same standard (let alone by the same people).

[Marco]

That's right they do and its the expensive stuff that I am talking about. The silver price is almost irrelevant. If ther is a kilogram of silver in them which I doubt, it's only £600 worth so that's a complete red herring.

Indeed, David. I'd love to see an exact breakdown of parts costs, which leads to ANY amplifier costing £100k. It's bullshit!

Come on, Tom, let's get real...

The only reason for any amplifier costing such a ridiculous amount of money, is manufacturers deciding 'what the market will stand', or in other words, what the clowns with more money than sense, who get a stiffy from buying 'audiophile jewellery', are stupid enough to pay!!

Marco.

[montesquieu]

Indeed, David. I'd love to see an exact breakdown of parts costs, which leads to ANY amplifier costing £100k. It's bullshit!

Come on, Tom, let's get real...

The only reason for any amplifier costing such a ridiculous amount of money, is manufacturers deciding 'what the market will stand', or in other words, what the clowns with more money than sense, who get a stiffy from buying 'audiophile jewellery', are stupid enough to pay!!

Marco.

Up to a point, Marco. But a high price tag also allows complete 'no compromise' construction using the best of the best, the rarest of the rarest, as well as a very large amount of R&D.

As for who buys this stuff, well I'm with you on that!

[Marco]

Up to a point, Marco. But a high price tag also allows complete 'no compromise' construction using the best of the best, the rarest of the rarest, as well as a very large amount of R&D.

Regardless of whatever materials are used in the making of equipment by a manufacturer, the asking price offered to customers, to buy the end product, should always be realistic and fair within the relevant context.

I don't believe that ANY amplifier, no matter what is inside it, justifies a price tag of £100k. It's ridiculous, and neither realistic nor fair. Jeez, you could buy a bloody nice house for that (at least you could up here)!!

My own Tube Distinctions valve amplifier is hand-built from scratch, has a solid-copper chassis, is point-to-point wired throughout and uses hand-wound transformers, and some of the best components one can buy - and it 'only' costs £5k.

Aside from the silver thing, how do we get from there to £100k? The ownership of a more 'prestigious' badge? Greater bragging rights?

Marco.

[Reffc]

I think Marco that a certain price levels (and I'm with you on this one, trust me) manufacturers do not seek to justify the cost. That's not what the product is all about, justifying every last penny. There are countless examples of hifi exotica which may have taken years to perfect before one was even sold, and there is a cost associated with all that R&D, and at the high end, its not cheap. The way I see it, it falls into several camps: camp 1 is where people "test" the market as you rightly suggest, and the cost bears no relationship to the value, rather the worth (not necessarily in pounds shillings and pence). This is where pee taking goes on....a lot.

The second area is where it may have taken 5 years or more to develop, lets say, an amp. It may have involved thousands of person-hours and many thousands of pounds, and thats before product manufacture. They may only sell say ten of these amps...ever, so they know that they are appealing to a small and very wealthy segment and the charges do reflect that. The buyers, I would suggest, rarely pay RRP. Its a starter for 10 and no-one forces anyone to sign on the dotted line.

However, where David and yourself are spot on is where expectations are generated (and here I do mean manufactured) at the lower to mid end of the market, product turn-over is high, marketing budgets are high and expected revenues are equally high. This is where huge profit margins are made, and the expectation of value for money for something costing several thousand to say 20K (ie within the means of many enthusiasts at some stage in their journey) is high. Where we subsequently judge performance and find fault not directly, but in a roundabout way (ie change amps several times to find it was a speaker design fault or component fault all along, or change speakers only to find it was an amp design or component fault) and then to find that the manufacturer at very little cost could and should have rectified these issues could be reasonably viewed as quite damning.

I think I'm right in saying that this is what David was trying to get across but whilst a perfectly valid and true statement, it differs I think from what Tom was saying. I think Toms point is that it is good manufacturing sense and practice to generate not just economies of scale and unit construction techniques but it is also understandable if the very best components are not always used where the manufacturer genuinely believes that it is of no benefit and would increase costs unnecessarily. Saying all of that, I do think that anyone contemplating £100K on an amplifer has perhaps lost the plot somewhere long the way, unless they happen to be a squillionnaire!

[montesquieu]

My own amplifier is hand-built from scratch, point-to-point wired throughout, and uses hand-wound transformers and some of the best components one can buy - and it costs £5k.

Aside from the silver thing, how do we get from there to £100k?

Marco.

Seriously thinking about getting Anthony to do me one too, given I already have its little brother ...

[Marco]

Lol... Now we're back in the real world! Trust me, you'd LOVE a Copper amp

If only the high-end audio industry contained more Anthony Matthews' and Glenn Crofts, people who are passionate about building the best quality equipment, but for the right reasons, then the industry (and our hobby) might not be in such shit.................

Marco.

P.S Paul, I'll get to your post tomorrow. For a change, I'm having an early night