It's great to be 'famous'!!

[Marco]

My own SL1200 (Sa750d, TS-STD-PSU, MN bearing, Kontra-B, LH-6000) is probably very much "middle of the road" in AoS terms. But last year having attended a hifi show, and listened to some mega-buck off-the-shelf TTs, I came to the conclusion that I am not really missing all that much from my own setup.

That's interesting, Rav... May I ask what "mega-buck off-the-shelf TTs" you compared it with?

(Also if you price up a brand new LP12 to a decent spec level, the cost is pretty astronomical!!! You would be able to have carte-blanche in terms of similar budget if deployed towards a high-spec SL1200.)

That's a very good point indeed, and one some should think about very carefully!

Marco.

[Marco]

It didn't really come across that way Marco to be honest mate, hence the replies you got.
Its not that we didn't get it.. it was just a bit open ended and ambigious what you were meaning?

You cleared it up though just there. Cool.

Excellent! For a while there it was feeling like a severe case of



Marco.

[Audioman]

That's interesting, Rav... May I ask what "mega-buck off-the-shelf TTs" you compared it with?



That's a very good point indeed, and one some should think about very carefully!

Marco.

RAV makes an interesting point. I have often come away from shows with the same feeling re TT's I have heard in megabuck systems. However this is obviously not exclusive to owning a modified Technics.

Using the latest modded up LP12 as a price v quality comparison is a little extreme to say the least. These have got to be the most overpriced mods ever dreamed up, reinforcing the impression I have always had of Linn for profit maximisation based on taking advantage of those who blindly buy into their philosophy. It puts the LP12 in competition with some seriously good and better thought out ground up designs. So basicaly irrespective of the SQ improvements it's pretty easy to come up with something that is better value.

[Marco]

Hi Paul,

Rega P9 ! I will expand on that in saying it is a good package at it's price point and has the advantage of being as near to plug and play a top end TT can be. It still has the Rega house sound and for similar money I think others are far better to my ears such as a Mitchel Orbe or possibly a modified Techie with the same money lavished on it.

Just before I sold my soul to the devil, and went all 'direct-drivey', I auditioned both the P7 and P9, at a dealer, taking my (then) heavily-modded P5 (with Funk Firm AchroPLAT, stripped, polished, and Cardas-rewired RB700 and Rega T/T PSU) along as a reference. I also had a custom-made solid brass counterweight balance (made by Thrunobulaxx, who used to post here), fitted to the RB700.

I enjoyed both the P7 and P9, the latter which was notably superior (although rather 'cool and lean' in balance), but neither were sufficiently better than my 'race-tuned' P5, to justify the necessary expenditure. It was therefore at that point that I decided to abandon belt-drive T/Ts and go the modded Techy route, which was something at that point I had been doing a considerable amount of research on.

Based on direct experience, therefore, of comparing all three Regas to the first incarnation of a 'fully tricked out' Technics, which I bought from KAB USA, I can confirm that to my ears the latter was unquestionably superior in many areas - and of course the current iteration of my T/T is significantly superior to that of the original KAB version. Go figure...

I'm sure that some people view me simply as a 'Techy fanboy', but what they don't realise is that I've only reached where I am now after having conducted vast amounts of research on modifying the Technics, and having had considerable experience of listening to many viable alternatives. I'm simply not the type to jump on bandwagons or be influenced by 'flavours of the month'.

You can therefore bet your boots that when I own a particular piece of kit, it's for a bloody good reason!

My love of the Technics is founded purely and simply on my respect for it (when suitably modified) as a first-class transcription device of music on vinyl, not on a desire to be part of any 'club'. Some folks need to get that into their heads... I don't do cliques!

I think you have to be looking at something more upmarket in making comparisons either positive or negative against your particular deck.

Indeed, and I'm glad you agree.

I'm sure Marc's main point is that he would rather have something good of the shelf than spend vast amounts on mods a point which many of us would agree with. His anti Technics comments appear to be based on the standard deck or a more lightly modified version which would cover the versions offered by KAB, Sound Hi-Fi and Zu.

Again I agree. He does come across, however, as rather blinkered and closed-minded, and keen to devalue other people's valid choices. What he writes on his blog, IMO, verges on a hate campaign against the Technics and what it stands for - weird... Like I've already explained, the fact is, there is no 'off the shelf' alternative to a fully tricked-out Techy.

But it takes all sorts, I guess. He is certainly a 'character'!

Marco.

[Marco]

Using the latest modded up LP12 as a price v quality comparison is a little extreme to say the least. These have got to be the most overpriced mods ever dreamed up, reinforcing the impression I have always had of Linn for profit maximisation based on taking advantage of those who blindly buy into their philosophy. It puts the LP12 in competition with some seriously good and better thought out ground up designs. So basicaly irrespective of the SQ improvements it's pretty easy to come up with something that is better value.

And yet many, who could afford it, Paul, wouldn't baulk at spending the necessary dosh, but at the same time are critical (often to the point of ridicule) of those of us who've spent many thousands of pounds on modifying the Technics.

The feeling seems to be that, with the Linn, such expenditure is justified because it's a 'proper turntable', whereas the Technics isn't... That's my point.

Such brainwashed thinking smacks of both double standards and an ingrained belief system (not to mention, snobbery) which is long past its sell-by date, no?

Marco.

[gx502]

That's interesting, Rav... May I ask what "mega-buck off-the-shelf TTs" you compared it with?



That's a very good point indeed, and one some should think about very carefully!

Marco.

The decks were, an Audio-Note w/ Io-Gold MC, an Avid-Acutus/SME-V, and a Feickert Blackbird/Kuzma arm. (I also heard some mid-line OL decks.)

Of course we are talking about unfamiliar decks, listened to in unfamiliar systems, with at times unfamiliar music setup in hotel rooms. So the comparisons are pretty vague.

I am not saying that either of the two turntables I have at home are better than any of the above. But my overall feeling was that I am not missing all that much....

Kind regards....

PS: I only mentioned the brand new LP12, since Linn is a very established hifi manufacturer, and is indicative of a off the shelf solution.

[Macca]

You can see exactly where he is coming from with his analogy at the end of the piece:

'Think about these approaches as it relates to the automobile industry. Would you rather own a Hyundai Excel that has been tuned to the hilt using $20,000 worth of parts from a dozen different companies from all over the world? Or would you rather just own a Porsche Cayman S? I'll take the Porsche... and the P9, please.'

If he had actually done some listening comparisons then there would be some credibility in his views but he obviously hasn't and the analogy gives this away - he is basing his views on an idea, on a principle and not on practical experience.

incidentally a pal of mine owned a Porsche 911 Carrera for a year or so. He traded it in for a Subaru Imprezza. Why? Because the Subaru was just as quick and it handled better.

[bogle111]

The feeling seems to be that, with the Linn, such expenditure is justified because it's a 'proper turntable', whereas the Technics isn't... That's my point.

Such brainwashed thinking smacks of both double standards and an ingrained belief system which is long past its sell-by date, no?

Marco.

There are many out there that will douse the 1200 camp. Some will do it because they are involved with the industry and retailers do not sell the modded. If the reviewers did, then they would be supporting the "buy it direct from the cottage" and where would their advertising come from? Sometimes though, it can be out of confusion or worse still, arrogance.

As there is a car analogy, here comes my spanner.

Modding anything will always give different results, whether the engine, suspension or bodywork. The product will get further away from the original. The Porsche in standard stock form is a known result. By spending a lot on mods to any car will take it off in a different direction than nthe initial performance criteria. (No pun intended) Some better, some worse.

The problem with 1200's and modding as I see it, is that there are variations of SL1210, plus by mixing the pieces (several each of the following)
Mats
Platters
Bearings
Power Supplies
Arms
the end result will not be the same. There would be a terrific number of variant SL1210's. Which route to go down?

There already may exist on this forum a chart with two possible avenues to go down, but I am unaware of it. This would help people to mod their 1200 in a logical path knowing the final outcome.

Whether you are a "Hot Rodder" or a "Plonk & Player", there are always going to be different opinions. Personally, I am a P&Per because the final result is consistency, however, at heart I am a rodder when I see a weakness in the basics. The only thing that I am amazed with in this industry is that so few UK manufacturers went down the DD route like JBE - Fashion or Bullshit. A DD Oracle would have been great. As for BD, I doubt I would ever go back.

Regs
Pete (DD all the way I'm afraid)

BTW If someone with the tech skills wants to rip apart a 1210 to be left with the guts, I can supply the slate cut platform for the exercise. A total rebuild from the ground up resulting in a SL2100.

[Marco]

If he had actually done some listening comparisons then there would be some credibility in his views but he obviously hasn't and the analogy gives this away - he is basing his views on an idea, on a principle and not on practical experience.

That's the problem, though, Martin - and unfortunately he's not alone...

People who think that way with audio, do my head right in, especially when they use their 'views' (based on the sum total of next to hee-haw) to attack those who've arrived at their choices, via the only valid and acceptable method: the practical experience of listening to and comparing equipment!

I will simply never understand the alternative mentality. Indeed it's dangerous, as the gullible and easily influenced will swallow the dogma and potentially ignore going down a route which could lead to their audio nirvana. Exposing such misinformation and prejudice is *precisely* why I continue to champion the Techy cause so vehemently here on AoS.

Marco.

P.S Excellent post, Peter. I'll get to it after lunch

[RobbieGong]

Marc is definately entitled to is opinion without a doubt. His car analogy sort of felt like he was making a point but at the same time exagerating whilst firin a bit of a cheap shot, some may disagree. Getting back to the Techie modding - Again, I'll say that for me I cannot think of a more solid foundation of a turntable to build on with regards to achieving a high end performer to that regard. The thing is as solid as a solid thing which for me was so reassuring from the off. The fantastic motor system which we've covered loads of times and equates to rock solid speed would alone cost the others a bomb to manufacture and is only possible at the price these things left the shelves in the millions at because of mainly dj demand (solid build !!). Ease of use is second to non from scratch (pardun the pun). I picked my first ever 1210 Mk2 about 3+ years ago in very good order for a mere £160. Moved on a couple of years ago to my MK5g which cost me £430 brand new boxed. The 1200 / 1210 is a lot of deck for the money IMO.
Ok - The doubters say why spend £1K / £2K / £3K blah blah Like we all just find that sort of money in one hit and mod the thing and thats my point. Building over time at your own pace has always reaped great results for reasons including those above. I've spent just over £1K on KAB damper, Mike New bearing, Issonoes, External psu BUT over time. The music now sounds the best and more 'real / natural' than I could have ever imagined, built upon a seriously good, solid and reliable platform. A Mike New Platter of some kind will follow at some point which would probably add another £600.00 and then I'd happily pit my Techie up against any deck costing double what I've spent. Also remember that the parts added are not the equivalent of go faster stripes and big exhaust pipes. We are talking properly engineered and researched items that when purchased have brought real genuine improvements in all areas of the sonic presentation, not through colouration but through iliminating the crap. Testimonies in abundance through guys who care, research then produce quality - (Mike New, Paul Hynes, Vantage Audio, Audio Origami.............