Confronting your own realities...

[shuggz]

I've always wondered about how we as hi-fi enthusiasts or audiophiles (choose whichever you prefer) see ourselves. Ultimately, it should always be about music and good sound, and not the equipment for the equipment's sake. Trouble is, some people are more sincere about this than others and genuinely achieve that aim, whereas others might think they're sincere but are actually just kidding themselves on

For example, I find *some*, and I stress SOME, so as not to upset everyone in that category, more obsessive D.I.Y-ers like that - they might think they're in it for the love of music, but often with their equipment they spend more time with the hood open fiddling and farting around, tweaking this and that, than sitting down listening to and enjoying the music it makes. I'd love to know the ratio of tweaking-to-music listening with some of these guys. However, if that's what 'does it' for them then fine; it's their money and their life, so good luck to them, but that definitely isn't for me.

It's one of the reasons why I've never embraced D.I.Y audio to any great degree. Yes it has many very valuable benefits, and I understand why people enjoy it, but quite simply aside from my unquestionable 'hamfistedness' with a soldering iron, the temptation for constantly fiddling is just too great, and thus also the potential for taking your eye off the ball as to what it's meant to be about is even greater: enjoying recorded music in the home to the highest standard of fidelity... It's a bit like the chap you see next door who spends the greatest proportion of his time underneath the bonnet of his car than in the driving seat... What are these guys really - simply car mechanics enthusiasts or genuine car driving enthusiasts? The same parallels can be drawn I feel with hi-fi and music amongst audiophiles and hi-fi D.I.Y-ers.

The other thing I would ask you to consider is this:

How genuinely confident (and I stress the word) are you about your beliefs in hi-fi? Are you a staunchly objectivist testing and measurements boffin or an equally staunch subjectivist who trusts his or her ears implicitly - and most importantly given the thread title, do you become uncomfortable and defensive when someone of the opposite mindset robustly challenges your (often) ingrained beliefs and prejudices, or are you genuinely open-minded and always receptive to new ideas and willing to embrace change?

And here's the clincher... Would you be willing to admit that you may have made some mistakes in arriving at your current beliefs and so realise that they perhaps need some updating or reassessing?

Let's expose and confront our own realities. How do you honestly see yourself in this regard? Hence the title, let's do some introspection of our genuine hi-fi and music loving motives - and be as honest as possible!

My belief is that in hi-fi some people are too stuck in their ways and also that others are kidding themselves on that music is more important than collecting or fiddling with the boxes. Discuss...

Marco.

Marco

I'd have thought that a DIY'er is someone who is continually confronting their own realities re audio, both from a cost and sound reproduction perspective.

If something doesn't sound right then don't we all experiment be it cable swapping, tube rolling or wholesale system swapping.
Some do however try to reach other peoples idea of audio nirvana rather than their own, hence the never ending tweaking, maybe that's due to insecurity or inquisitiveness.

I guess to confront your own reality re audio, you have to be a realistic individual not just in relation to hi-fi, as my disposable income has somewhat disappeared my other half's brutal reassessment of my hi-fi aspirations, made me realise that whether I like it or not, less will have to be more.

[StanleyB]

I guess to confront your own reality re audio, you have to be a realistic individual not just in relation to hi-fi, as my disposable income has somewhat disappeared my other half's brutal reassessment of my hi-fi aspirations, made me realise that whether I like it or not, less will have to be more.

My guiding principle.

[alb]

I build stuff to use. Sometimes it last a few months, sometimes a couple of years. Depending on how successful the end result.

I often tweak in between.

I spend more time listening than tweaking.

Sometimes when in tweaking mood, i'm guilty of playing the same few CDs over and over, because i know them well and it helps me to get things as i want them. Consequently i don't get get to buy a lot of new material.

Given more time and money, i would probably spend more time building stuff.
I love music, i think. But the real fascination comes from completing a project and getting it working. As a relative newbie to DIY electronics
, i don't think the novelty has worn off yet.
The learning and satisfaction involved overides any other factor, at the moment.

I've been building speakers for over thirty years and often keep them for a long time, if they turn out to be good. With the occasional tweak of course.

So for me it's all down to circumstances, time, money and being in the mood for doing something.

I've forgotten what the question was now.

Oh yes, mistakes?

Yeah i made loads.

[Mr. C]

Marco,

I have to confess that the 'Dad's radiogram special' (copyright P.Jeffery@2006) is not of my own making, it belongs to a kindred spirit who's sheer insight-fullness into life, far exceeds my own by a large margin!
Though I will shed a little light on the true definition of such an apt phrase for the UK.

The Concise Oxford English dictionary extraction for:-

Dad's radiogram special

A description of sound style relating to majority UK sonic tastes spanning the last 40 years of musical reproduction.

See:- 'Safe', 'Boring', 'Un-involving', 'Uninspiring' (at best!), 'Warm' (overly so), 'Rolled off', 'over blown wobbly bass with piss poor extension and zero note intimation of any description' (note very little bass below 50hz), 'Cloying' (in various degrees), serious loss of detail retrieval, exaggerated and false sound staging, the ability to induce coma like status within 20 minutes of switch on, 'Masterfully' hoodwinking the listening into believing it is producing a 'realistic sound'

Note:- The above is not just the sole reverse of some thermionic amplification, solid state is more than capable of producing such truly uninspiring sonic delights that will stir the soul to terminal non positive reality implosion due to negative musical stimulation high on the 'Blunt' Scale

Note ii :-

All 'Dad's radiogram special' sound is measured in Blunts .
It was named after an infamous self styled 'musician' who in the late 2000's musical (loose term when applied to aforementioned) output managed to conjure up such 'resentment, hatred, anger and terminal despondency at the merest utterance of his name.


Note iii :-

The Blunt Factor (ISO9003 institute of metric studies and standards Paris 2003)

Radio edit version ;-)

Blunt factor 1 = Mild sedation, limited involvement, passable self esteem needing minor reassurance from time to time. Though in a redeemable position



Blunt Factor 5 = Bordering on 'no road back' drifting in and out of consciousness during listening sessions, low self esteem, constant need for self affirmation and visits to friends and Hifi shops to help self justification of their musical path.



Blunt Factor 10 - Uber extreme case, absolutely no redemption or escape, soul is condemned and lost to wander the annals of time and space without method of returning to reality and musical satisfaction. (Halcrow owners you know the gravity of the situation)



An example that was cited to me:-

A Primare front end, Sugden amplification, Proac speakers this would have a Blunt factor of 1-3 depending on room and musical tastes.
Subject only mildly effected, a short dose of medication over a 3 month period could reclaim this person's soul.

I hope this has helped you glean an insight into the Dad's radiogram special
All of the above is purely fictitious and has no bearing on any real person (s) living, known or dead.

[Marco]

I might put that as a sticky somewhere!

Meanwhile, putting one's 'serious head' on again for a moment... I would like people to think about this question in particular and offer their views:

How comfortable are you when people challenge your audio beliefs or system building methodologies, particularly when you think the challenger has a valid point and has exposed some flaws or 'loopholes' in them? Would you humbly admit it and then reassess your beliefs accordingly or remain stubbornly defensive of them regardless?

Have a go at it.

Cheers

Marco.

[StanleyB]

How comfortable are you when people challenge your audio beliefs or system building methodologies, particularly when you think the challenger has a valid point and has exposed some flaws or 'loopholes' in them? Would you humbly admit it and then reassess your beliefs accordingly or remain stubbornly defensive of them regardless?

Sometime it is better to keep quiet, and just let people listen to your system in order to make their mind up for themsleves. I am not worried if X is better than A. I am worried if X sounds better in my set up than A does. How A sounds in someone else's set up is not for me to argue with them, unless I have the same set up situated in the same environment.

To give an example: My NS1000M is flat against the wall, 40cm from the floor, and only 1.5m apart. Sounds like lunacy, but once you hear them in that position it all makes sense. I know people who have them a 1ft or more from the wall and several meters apart, just to get a similar result.

STan

[Clive]

I feel the DIY aspect that's been mentioned is just one example. Should we really be addressing overall hi-fi obsessive behaviour? I believe this is more about OCD. I've been there with constant capacitor swapping, trying loads of plinth options for my deck, many arm mounting methods. Is this R&D or OCD?

I happen to enjoy building valve-based electronics and enjoy understanding what aspects of design most strongly influences performance. The OCD side of my DIY exploits has now firmly taken a back seat for 2 mains reasons:

1) I answered many of the questions I had

2) I decided to get more of a life (not true rally, work took over....)

OCD does not however apply just to DIY. Hoping and trying not to offend........how about someone who is admirably focused on getting a 1210 to perform an audiophile (or whatever term you prefer) job with mods to power supply, feet, arm, spindle etc and then placing the deck on an amazing number of Mana-style stands? This may not be DIY but viewed by people who just pop a CD on or listen to iPods such behaviour will be seen as OCD. They might say, "for heavens sake, just something that works in the first place!".

Also, how do we differentiate between our having OCD or simply being Nerdy?

Lights blue touchpaper and retires........

[shuggz]

I might put that as a sticky somewhere!

Meanwhile, putting one's 'serious head' on again for a moment... I would like people to think about this question in particular and offer their views:

How comfortable are you when people challenge your audio beliefs or system building methodologies, particularly when you think the challenger has a valid point and has exposed some flaws or 'loopholes' in them? Would you humbly admit it and then reassess your beliefs accordingly or remain stubbornly defensive of them regardless?

Have a go at it.

Cheers

Marco.

As everything has flaws my answer is I would be exceedingly comfortable with any advice, however whether you can act on that advice is another matter.

[Marco]

Hi Clive,

I feel the DIY aspect that's been mentioned is just one example. Should we really be addressing overall hi-fi obsessive behaviour? I believe this is more about OCD. I've been there with constant capacitor swapping, trying loads of plinth options for my deck, many arm mounting methods. Is this R&D or OCD?

With you (having met you and saw your set-up) I'd say it was definitely the former.

I happen to enjoy building valve-based electronics and enjoy understanding what aspects of design most strongly influences performance. The OCD side of my DIY exploits has now firmly taken a back seat for 2 mains reasons:

1) I answered many of the questions I had

2) I decided to get more of a life (not true rally, work took over....)

That's excellent because it demonstrates both an enquiring mind, which is healthy, and also the ability of knowing when to stop at the point when enough information has been learned for now and then simply enjoy the results obtained, which is also healthy. OCD comes in, I feel, when the enquiring mind overrules one's ability to prioritise the latter over the former.

OCD does not however apply just to DIY.

Indeed not - far from it; I was merely giving what I considered as a valid example. I have met people who I think fit the category I have described perfectly - where, to put it as politely as possible, it's obvious that any love they have of music firmly takes a back seat to the obsession they have for fiddling, and incidentally none of them are members here

how about someone who is admirably focused on getting a 1210 to perform an audiophile (or whatever term you prefer) job with mods to power supply, feet, arm, spindle etc and then placing the deck on an amazing number of Mana-style stands? This may not be DIY but viewed by people who just pop a CD on or listen to iPods such behaviour will be seen as OCD. They might say, "for heavens sake, just something that works in the first place!".

Hahahaha... I was waiting for that one and am surprised that it hasn't come sooner!

You're quite right of course, but like you Clive, as I mentioned above, I know when to stop at any given time and simply sit back and enjoy the results. The fact is that I spend way more time (some 5-6 hours per day on average) listening to music than I do any fiddling with my 1210 or anything else in my system.

Sure, if something comes up which I feel might upgrade any part of my system I'll look into it and audition it if necessary, then implement it if I consider that it passes the SPPV test, but once done, I simply relax back into music listening mode, enjoy the sonic benefits I've achieved, worrying not about anything else.

The trick is to be able to switch in and out of analytical mode as the occasion demands, and when listening to music on your system never obsess about any minor faults that are detected. If your system is good enough it will always showcase the music first and foremost, and not the faults, thus allowing your ears and mind to relax and always be satisfied with the presentation. I can do this relatively easily.

As for the Mana stands, on face of it, I can quite understand how my rather 'over-the-top' collection could be seen as 'obsessive', however the truth of the matter is, and I'm being completely honest here, I haven't touched them or done anything with them since about 2 years ago when I sold most of my original stands and had clones made, which I obviously had to set-up. Otherwise, they just sit there and do their job (very effectively) and I reap the sonic rewards. Basically, they're just a 'given' and a permanent fixture that I don't even think about now.

If I were truly obsessive in that respect you'd have read about me experimenting with different stands and chopping and changing them accordingly. I've had Mana supports now since 2001, which is testament to their effectiveness and also how satisfied I am with them.

Also, how do we differentiate between our having OCD or simply being Nerdy?

That's a difficult one. We're all "hi-fi nerds" in some way or another, however I guess that the difference is some nerds are nerdy all the time and others are only nerdy when they need to be!

Marco.

[Yiangos]

Marco,audio beliefs,system building or/and way of listening (positioning etc) is something very personal.Stan gave you an example with his NS-1000.Let me give you a similar one only more extreme.I own ProAc Response 4s and i have them 24cm from the rear wall.
Why? Because whenever i move them forward,inside the room,i don't like the way they sound.Too threadbare and thin sounding for my taste. As for your question,if i think someone has a true valid point,i would reassess my beliefs,as-long-as i do not have to pay extra money to experiment or his/her beliefs,no matter how true or valid they are,don't involve additional hassle.Besides,who'se to stop me from going back to the way i used to do things ?