Half-a-brain loonies and internet geeks

[Primalsea]

I used to think exactly the same way but a few things changed the way I looked at things:

First of all I learnt to lighten up a little (no offence intended)

I also had a few uncomfortable moments that betrayed my then belief and more importantly - assumptions.

Not always but a few times I have heard differences that I cant explain. In most occasions it's been a bummer for me as its often been new equipment that I wanted to keep but I didn't like the result.

This is not just amps or speakers, I once bought a remote control mains socket fo the hifi. This was great as I could just switch the whole thing on from anywhere in the room, I had everything to gain. However there was something different with the sound, I noticed that I was find the treble quite course an dthe bass a little shy. I left things as they were for a while but just couldn't live with it. I took the adapter out and I had my old system back. Madness I thought, I must be a loony. A month later I put it back in thinking I that I imagined it but the same thing happened!!

There is a lot of shit out being sold by unscruplus people but dont assume that everyone is telling porky pies.

[NRG]

TO MY KNOWLEDGE IN THE LAST TEN YEARS NO HI FI MAGAZINE OR MANUFACTURER HAS EVER DEFENDED A PRODUCT OR REVIEW ON AN INTERNET FORUM.

I have, and on many forums. Ended up getting banned on most of them.

Also Ashley James on this very forum.

[David Price]

Hi S,

Your argument seems to be based on the assumption that the magazines are personally holding a gun to your head, forcing you to buy a particular product, if it gets 4 or 5 stars. Of course, this isn't the case. Magazine reviewers are merely stating opinion - which in some magazines like ours is backed up by 'objective' measurements (which cannot be influenced by 'hype'). You can take it or leave it as you please. We constantly say, in our magazine, that our reviews are an entry point into the discussion, and not a 'final answer'.

The question of whether a product is good or not depends on so many variables. Loudspeaker/amplifier matching is critical, as is speaker/room matching - to name but two vital factors. All we can claim is that - in our room, with our ancillaries, with our tastes and our music - a product has real worth and is worth auditioning, and give reasoned argument why...

This is a long way from you being conned. We are not issuing 'a compulsory purchase order' on your behalf for a particular product that gets a good review. There's something called 'agency', which is the ability for individuals to act in their own interests, which exists here - which you are denying. You're perfectly at liberty to act as you wish here!

I'm a big reader of magazines, and heartily disagree with what I read often. For example, it saddens me deeply that BMW can apparently do not wrong in CAR magazine. But I read those reviews 'actively', not passively. I can see that - for that journalist, this car is great. I can also tell that he's probably a late twenty-something boy racer who actually thinks lowered suspension and ultra low profile tyres are a great idea for Britain's 'traffic-calmed', potholed roads (like I used to do). I don't then automatically allege he or his magazine is corrupt and out to con me. This is where I struggle with your conclusions...

I actually think you make some astute observations, but the explanations you offer simply aren't possible to substantiate. In this sense, your are outside the box looking in - but you can't see through the walls so you're simply guessing, and in a very tendentious way.

A few little details that make your conspiracy theory a little wobbly:

[1] all magazines try very hard to be different from one another, because they are in commercial competition with one another - this makes it *less* likely for all magazines to uniformly agree with each other, not more.

[2] magazine editors are by nature rather competitive folk and are constantly trying to prove their rivals wrong! So reading a 5 star review in a rival title if anything makes them less inclined to print rampant praise of a product!

[3] journalists are by nature rather opinionated, contrary and petulant beings, and would rather listen to their own instincts than those of others - again this makes them even more determined to find fault with things their peers like, not less.

[4] the editorial departments of magazines are culturally very different to the marketing ones. To put things in slightly comic, exaggerated terms, the journos regard the marketeers as wide boys with the gift of the gab, and the marketing folk think the journos are po-faced, self-important, head-in-the-clouds types. Not a great start for a close working relationship...

I am not defending hi-fi journalism/magazines per se, because it is impossible to defend it *all* for the same reasons it is impossible to attack it *all*. Hi-fi magazines are not one single whole homogenous block.

I think that yes - absolutely - there have been some real howlers in all magazines over the years, and some less than great moments in all magazines, but these all happen independently and for a number of reasons (none of which are ever accurately identified by people on forums) - rather than the single overarching conspiracy theory you suggest. The way your argument runs is that there's almost a 'polit bureau' of hi-fi journalism, with central edicts being written telling journalists/editors what they are - and not - allowed to say. Anyone who's worked in any form of publishing will find this amusing, and publishers would retort, "the chance would be a fine thing".

David

"Sadly I feel people can be lulled into a false sense of security. Magazines HAVE done this to consumers, ALL magazines have stated opinion, hype and supported all sorts of made up rubbish regarding all matter of Hi Fi Retail products, WITHOUT robust technical evidence."

The forum divide and and Hi Fi Geeks and lunies are born from this. We have divides within forums, those that will not now believe anything without robust proof, and those who are alienated and belittled for supporting manufacturer and magazine claims.

The car magazines do not lie and make up shite, nor do they recommend and hype up a product with a stupendous review system which never seems to be less than 4 out of 5 stars.

FACT...A fancy cable costing hundreds per metre can be submitted for review, looking splendid in its nylon mesh and logo'd shrink wrap and bling plugs, and get a fabulous write up making it out to be splendid value for money. Even though the reviewer knows it is available for a couple of quid per metre from a component catalogue.

There have been plenty of technical Foo made up and relentlessly pushed into customers minds by manufacturers and magazines, I have had such admitted, but magazines decide not to upset the apple cart and support such an industry.

Until magazines start to defend technical debate with robust evidence, and look after customers by giving a true account of a product, it's origins, and its performance and value, we are only going to see more and more of a divide on forums and mistrust of magazine reviewers.

The FACT is that magazines HAVE lied to customers, have mislead them, and have made fools out of them, they have allowed manufacturers to do the same, and only ever seem to offer favourable review to the "correct" product.

Why do we not see manufacturers or reviewers defend product which is under scrutiny or debate on forums?
Why do we not see "robust" technical debate offered on forums by manufacturers of product, or by reviewers of product?

Hi Fi and the British audio scene has went to the dogs, full of con men and opinionated bigots, no one cares for the customer or his requirements and everyone in that industry seems happy to support each other with over hyped over priced products which extract the unsuspecting customer from his hard earned cash.

Why don't we ever see, product A is shite, it is a Pioneer budget DVD player in a Goldmund badged case, save thousands and buy the Pioneer model.

Or, Magic speaker cable Co have a cheek, what we have here is identical to RA component catalogue number 3445. You can get this without the bling Nylon for £2 per metre, saving you £118 per metre.

Or, This speaker is nothing more than a car speaker stuck in a DIY cabinet with a cheap Pro audio DEQ unit, avoid at all cost.

All we see is 4 stars, 5 stars, superb, very good, blah blah blah, with no robust technical debate or such. No one but the forums seem intent on protecting the potential customer from buying useless overpriced twaddle or falling for magazine technical FOO.

Magazines now have NO credibility, THEY are now full of half brained lunatics and that is what is doing the damage many ignore or turn a blind eye to."

[Neil McCauley]

David, you write with eloquence, passion and I do believe sincerity. Moreover I like your style. Frankly even if I didn’t in the main agree with what you say, I’d applaud your message panache. However, in the main I do agree with what you’ve said here and elsewhere too. I value your opinions – even on those rare occasions when I don’t agree with them.

Meanwhile, I'm listening to ‘Jet Plane In A Rocking Chair’ from the “In Concert November 1975’ CD by Richard and Linda Thompson. And it’s good. And I'm feeling good - which is pretty rare these days.

And I'm thankful I'm not living in the Congo, or some other s**t hole.

And I'm thankful that so many were prepared to die in WW2 to help stop my ancestors and me not to end up under Josef Mengele’s scalpel

And that Buddy Guy is still alive and kicking

And that I can still take a healthy and pain-free dump when I want – and without assistance

And a lot more besides …… including discovering AOL.

And yes, reading your missives too.

Boys ‘n girls – I'm out of here, and pretty much everywhere else until January 5. Whatever you do, and however you do it, have a good one.

[Spectral Morn]

Happy CHANUKAH (Festival Of Lights)

You are a great communicator yourself Sir.

As to what you are thankful for. And the congregation says AMEN.

Regards D S D L ----- Neil

[Alex Nikitin]

Alex , blind tests, you cannot prove they do or do not work. I have seen more forum attempts at validating this than manufacturers or magazines. Suffice to say it seems valid enough to prove stuff does not work, and manufacturers and magazines say nothing.

It is not valid, that is the problem. It is just another way of fooling yourself and others, probably even more evil as it pretends to be "scientific".

Alex, you want to provide a link to a manufacturer telling anyone in a public forum about their cables? Chord maybe? You got technical data showing any cable to be so vastly superior in LCR values it has to be worth £100 per mono metre when an identical cable exists for a couple of quid per metre?
I have seen plenty of internet discussion regarding cables, NEVER have I seen a manufacturer defend a product or customer.

There some examples already given. I have seen many other manufacturers to defend their products both in their replies to magazine reviews and on the forums. I would not expect reviewers ever do the same on the subjective part of their evaluation, only on the measurement side.

That is the crux of the matter, and anything from anyone else's lips is hype and bull.

TO MY KNOWLEDGE IN THE LAST TEN YEARS NO HI FI MAGAZINE OR MANUFACTURER HAS EVER DEFENDED A PRODUCT OR REVIEW ON AN INTERNET FORUM.

I think many who read magazines buy blindly, believing the techno babble and reviews, fooling themselves into believing they have a better sounding product, only to go onto a Hi Fi Forum and find out other think they are fools for believing such tripe, and not only that, the non Foo brigade are willing to provide technical Data showing it to be tripe.

"Non Foo brigade" most of the time just supplying a different kind of Foo with pseudo-scientific smell , that is my opinion. I design SOTA measurement equipment at work for many years. I know what it is possible to measure and what is not. And there is always a measurable difference even between two very similar cables, for example. However usually the "pseudo-scientific" crowd would dismiss these differences as irrelevant in audio or insignificant. It is not a matter of measurement - it is usually a matter of interpretation of the results that is a problem.

Many who suffer such belittleing will turn their backs on such matters and pursue other interests and areas of performance.

At the moment their are two areas that concern me,

Cables, all types.

Computer Audio.

Two contentious areas full of Foo, hype, bull, made up crap, and all manner of who knows what! Cables are the worst, and computers are getting like cables. Though both have an odd balance of perspective no one seems able to pin anything down which has been technically debated found sound, collaborated and have similar opinion in magazines and forums.

Are Hi Fi cables a con?

Can we have magazines look into computer audio and expect anything more than left overs from a computer industry where sound quality IS NOT paramount?

Can we expect the magazines, reviewers and manufacturers to embrace fora and develop understanding of the how and why of product?

Can we expect magazines to look at viable cost effective alternatives and opinions for the audio customer?

You are asking too much . The magazine people do what they can - and first of all they are trying to sell the stuff. It is their business. Is it surprising that the most popular magazines are less technical? Most we can expect from "the magazines, reviewers and manufacturers" - is to be reasonably honest in their information and their subjective opinions. If you look in the past of hi-fi magazines you will see that there were many attempts to do exactly what you are asking, and where are these publications now? Also different magazines do address different customers - that is also quite clear.

It is very nice to see David Price here in this forum - he did provide rather interesting inside view of hi-fi reviewing. It is not a very easy business and I do respect reviewers for what they do - thought for many years in the industry I had my share of bad reviews as well as good reviews.

The truth is that before the internet Fora, magazines, reviewers and manufacturers were able to say what they wanted and make all sorts of wild claims, take a look at the woodwork now, things are changing.

Unfortunately, another side of this Internet freedom of information is that anybody pretends to be an expert and the value of a real expertise is diminished. It is a very sad state of affairs as the real knowledge and experience are lost in the high level of noise. Most of the time people reading the Internet would rather believe something they understand on a common sense level. It is in many cases rather incorrect understanding. Not many real experts would have time and ability to defend their knowledge on a public forum. It requires another special skill .

Take a step outside the box and look in. If that is too difficult spend some time reading all the magazines and looking through the forums. To me it's clear something has gotten lost.

Yes. The respect for a proper skill in the art. Not just in hi-fi thought.

Alex

[Neil McCauley]

Well. Thank you Neil. I'm lapsed. A non-believer. But not ashamed of my ancestry. And happy to defend the rights of others to believe. Krav Maga helps. And now ........ I really must depart.

[David Price]

thanks Howard - likewise!

Funnily enough I'm off for the Xmas period now too - so I'd like to wish *everyone* on AOS, and off it, a Merry Christmas. See you in the Happy New Year - have a good one!

[anthonyTD]

"Non Foo brigade" most of the time just supplying a different kind of Foo with pseudo-scientific smell , that is my opinion. I design SOTA measurement equipment at work for many years.

I know what it is possible to measure and what is not. And there is always a measurable difference even between two very similar cables, for example. However usually the "pseudo-scientific" crowd would dismiss these differences as irrelevant in audio or insignificant. It is not a matter of measurement - it is usually a matter of interpretation of the results that is a problem.

hi alex,
well put.
regards,anthony,TD...

[anthonyTD]

thanks Howard - likewise!

Funnily enough I'm off for the Xmas period now too - so I'd like to wish *everyone* on AOS, and off it, a Merry Christmas. See you in the Happy New Year - have a good one!

hi David,
likewise, and i for one would like to thank you on behalf of AOS for your contributions and apreciate your input on all things hi fi related, hope to see you here again in the new year.
regards,anthony,TD...