Half-a-brain loonies and internet geeks

[sastusbulbas]

At the end of the day it's all about choice....

Except it is not, freedom of choice requires clear cut information on the choices and variables, and magazines do not do this, the general consumer is an open target, at the moment I akin the audio industry to those that go around kidding on they are gas men and stealing money from the vulnerable.

The sooner the magazines and manufacturers return from profit cuckoo land the better.

I am giving up all magazines and new Hi Fi for that reason, because the industry and its attitude sickens me. How low will it go? If any of them lost their job, would they resort to selling £2 socks for £60 a pair to the dying!

[Alex Nikitin]

Until magazines start to defend technical debate with robust evidence, and look after customers by giving a true account of a product, it's origins, and its performance and value, we are only going to see more and more of a divide on forums and mistrust of magazine reviewers.

I think it is not possible to provide a "robust evidence" about a hi-fi equipment performance based only on technical merits. If that would be possible, there would be no need for listening at all . Measurements and technical details do provide some information and are essential for sorting out badly designed or potentially unreliable or dangerous products. However the technical side would never tell the whole story, for a very simple reason - at the end there is a human person with a subjective perception. So far there is no way to evaluate the sound quality in a purely objective way. It is certainly gives some space for a dishonest people trying to make money - however in a long run most of these "snake oil" type products do not survive.

For me measurements in hi-fi magazines do provide a pleasant reading and (as I have designed measuring equipment for over 30 years) more the better. However at best these would give me only some indication of the design approach and potential compromises, saying very little about actual sound quality. For that you have to listen and there is no other way, if the equipment meets at least basic technical requirements.

Alex

[aquapiranha]

Magazines and forums both have their strengths and weaknesses. For example both can recommend a product based either on personal preference or for a more covert reason, such as a desire to sell a product (mostly in the case of the magazines) to somehow gain from it. No matter how much "experience" and individual claims to have, there can be but one opinion that matters, and that is the opinion of the person using the product. It is for this reason that people should listen if possible before making a decision, or, a choice could be made on recommendation along with the asumption that a mistake may be made. I see lots of people making judgements, suggestions and even thinly veiled insults about products, but at the end of the day the only people they are fooling is themselves since anyone with an ounce of sense will see these comments for what they are - opinions, nothing more. there are too many self appointed wannabes in this hobby, so as usual it is caveat emptor.

One mans poison etc.... the sooner everyone realises we all like different things the better.

[sastusbulbas]

I think it is not possible to provide a "robust evidence" about a hi-fi equipment performance based only on technical merits. If that would be possible, there would be no need for listening at all . Measurements and technical details do provide some information and are essential for sorting out badly designed or potentially unreliable or dangerous products. However the technical side would never tell the whole story, for a very simple reason - at the end there is a human person with a subjective perception. So far there is no way to evaluate the sound quality in a purely objective way. It is certainly gives some space for a dishonest people trying to make money - however in a long run most of these "snake oil" type products do not survive.

For me measurements in hi-fi magazines do provide a pleasant reading and (as I have designed measuring equipment for over 30 years) more the better. However at best these would give me only some indication of the design approach and potential compromises, saying very little about actual sound quality. For that you have to listen and there is no other way, if the equipment meets at least basic technical requirements.

Alex

No sorry, too simple, in the last 30 years which magazines or manufacturers have backed claims made of Cables in an online Forum debate? NONE.

The fact is that forum members are continually disproving such as rubbish as are blind listening tests. When such happens magazines and manufacturers shirk away and leave the customer holding his cable like an empty dog leash.

And if there is a theory on it not being possible to measure, then at least manufacturers and magazines could START with that!

Personally though, it does not excuse the fact that many dealers and magazines know a product is not worth thousands, is sourced from a component catalogue, yet still give it a hyped review when a customer could buy it unbranded for pounds IF they knew better.

Nor does it excuse the fact that some reviewers know of such products yet keep quite about it.

[Alex Nikitin]

The fact is that forum members are continually disproving such as rubbish as are blind listening tests. When such happens magazines and manufacturers shirk away and leave the customer holding his cable like an empty dog leash.

And if there is a theory on it not being possible to measure, then at least manufacturers and magazines could START with that!

Personally though, it does not excuse the fact that many dealers and magazines know a product is not worth thousands, is sourced from a component catalogue, yet still give it a hyped review when a customer could buy it unbranded for pounds IF they knew better.

Nor does it excuse the fact that some reviewers know of such products yet keep quite about it.

Please, don't start about "blind listening tests". To make these even a little bit worthwhile takes a lot of effort, time and money. And even than they generally prove very little. These tests are a useful tool on some occasions but mostly just a waste of time. Any attempts to "prove" something in a "blind test" made at home or in a similar environment are completely useless.

And second - could you please provide an example of such a cable as you have described. I would love to buy one cheaply from RS .

Alex

[sastusbulbas]

Please, don't start about "blind listening tests". To make these even a little bit worthwhile takes a lot of effort, time and money. And even than they generally prove very little. These tests are a useful tool on some occasions but mostly just a waste of time. Any attempts to "prove" something in a "blind test" made at home or in a similar environment are completely useless.

And second - could you please provide an example of such a cable as you have described. I would love to buy one cheaply from RS .

Alex

Alex , blind tests, you cannot prove they do or do not work. I have seen more forum attempts at validating this than manufacturers or magazines. Suffice to say it seems valid enough to prove stuff does not work, and manufacturers and magazines say nothing.

Alex, you want to provide a link to a manufacturer telling anyone in a public forum about their cables? Chord maybe? You got technical data showing any cable to be so vastly superior in LCR values it has to be worth £100 per mono metre when an identical cable exists for a couple of quid per metre?
I have seen plenty of internet discussion regarding cables, NEVER have I seen a manufacturer defend a product or customer.

That is the crux of the matter, and anything from anyone else's lips is hype and bull.

TO MY KNOWLEDGE IN THE LAST TEN YEARS NO HI FI MAGAZINE OR MANUFACTURER HAS EVER DEFENDED A PRODUCT OR REVIEW ON AN INTERNET FORUM.

I think many who read magazines buy blindly, believing the techno babble and reviews, fooling themselves into believing they have a better sounding product, only to go onto a Hi Fi Forum and find out other think they are fools for believing such tripe, and not only that, the non Foo brigade are willing to provide technical Data showing it to be tripe.

Many who suffer such belittleing will turn their backs on such matters and pursue other interests and areas of performance.

At the moment their are two areas that concern me,

Cables, all types.

Computer Audio.

Two contentious areas full of Foo, hype, bull, made up crap, and all manner of who knows what! Cables are the worst, and computers are getting like cables. Though both have an odd balance of perspective no one seems able to pin anything down which has been technically debated found sound, collaborated and have similar opinion in magazines and forums.

Are Hi Fi cables a con?

Can we have magazines look into computer audio and expect anything more than left overs from a computer industry where sound quality IS NOT paramount?

Can we expect the magazines, reviewers and manufacturers to embrace fora and develop understanding of the how and why of product?

Can we expect magazines to look at viable cost effective alternatives and opinions for the audio customer?

The truth is that before the internet Fora, magazines, reviewers and manufacturers were able to say what they wanted and make all sorts of wild claims, take a look at the woodwork now, things are changing.

Take a step outside the box and look in. If that is too difficult spend some time reading all the magazines and looking through the forums. To me it's clear something has gotten lost.

[StanleyB]

TO MY KNOWLEDGE IN THE LAST TEN YEARS NO HI FI MAGAZINE OR MANUFACTURER HAS EVER DEFENDED A PRODUCT OR REVIEW ON AN INTERNET FORUM.

I have, and on many forums. Ended up getting banned on most of them.

[sastusbulbas]

May I ask what product?

[Beechwoods]

I assume Stan is referring to his Beresford DAC.

[StanleyB]

May I ask what product?

The Beresford TC-7510 DAC.