The Great Denon DL103 Debate...

[bong]

Kelvin,

I have the Feickart thingy and an SL1210. In my view, the Feickert guage is useless with a Technics tonearm, because the alignment is "Stevenson", which is similiar to the "rega" alignment.

i might be wrong on this, but from what i understand, the feickart is tonearm neutral, as in it can be applied to any tonearm within the pivot to spindle lengths that it can accommodate. it's just that it offers the baerwald and lofgren null points, while the technics overhang tool offers a stevenson null points. so it's more a choice of the user which set of points to use and which will sound better to him, rather than that the gauge is 'useless' with the technics arm. the arm doesn't choose the gauge, nor vice versa. the user does.

Essentially, the Stevenson arrangement is optimised for LPs with longer playing sides. I can't remember the exact radii, but Stevenson is good down to inner groove radius of 60mm, whilst Lofgrin & bauerwald are more like 66mm.

i took the following from feickert's website, where he listed instructions for the gauge.

The major goal was to find a tracking geometry that suits LPs in a perfect way. Out of a 100 records we checked the inner and outer radii and found out that the IEC recommendations of 60,325 and 146,05 mm were matched well by the large majority of records determined. After Løfgren’s equations this results in 70,2 and 116,6 mm for the Null points and a linear offset of 93,445 mm.
Older records dated back in the late 50s and early 60s sometimes have recorded grooves at down to 56 mm! Taking this into account we have calculated a second set of parameters and printed another template on the backside.

from what it claims, the lofgren null points provide for the majority of current or 'modern' records, while the points on the opposite side, the baerwald points, cater for older recordings from the 50s and 60s which cut a lot closer to the label, even down to 56mm. so i would believe that most records around today are catered for. my earlier question actually was that once i set my overhang, the arm seemed to fit into all 4 null points, while i know that the 2 sets of null points should be different in measurement.

OTOH, if you only listen to classic jazz and classical recordings, with only 15 -> 20 mins a side, the Lofgrin and Bauerwald would most likely be fine. I reverted to Stevenson, more or less, but you can, in effect have you own "custom" alignment, You just choose where you want your null tracking error points to be. With a pivoted arm, there is no "correct" alignment.

most, if not all of my LPs are pressed in the 50s and 60s; all classical jazz and vocals, but some of them really do cut it even just 1/2 a centimeter away from the label. so while they might be about 20mins a side, the grooves still take up pretty much the entire surface. also, perhaps there's no 'correct' alignment, but i believe that there should be an 'optimal' one.

[bong]

Did the Feickart gauge give correct overhang? This for me is what the Feickart does best, along with rapid setup. Checking many peoples' TTs I've been horrified to find the no one I checked had the correct overhang. This is not surprising as these guys had simply setup via 2 null point protractos. The chances of getting overhang correct by this method is remote. I'll shutup now as this this OT.

hi clive,

this was the same huge revelation I had when i used the feickart gauge on my cart. the overhang that feickart recommended meant that the 103s could and should never be used with the stock technics headshell. the cart simply had to sit so far forward in the headshell, that the technics shell ran out of grooves for it. i know of people who took to filing the slots all the way to the edges to accommodate the 103, but i took the lazy way out and ordered the zupreme. i also agree that most people would setup with 2 null point protractors, but overlook the overhang; well, this observation based on the discussion on my local forums anyway.

[Peter Stockwell]

i might be wrong on this, but from what i understand, the feickart is tonearm neutral, as in it can be applied to any tonearm within the pivot to spindle lengths that it can accommodate. it's just that it offers the baerwald and lofgren null points, while the technics overhang tool offers a stevenson null points. so it's more a choice of the user which set of points to use and which will sound better to him, rather than that the gauge is 'useless' with the technics arm. the arm doesn't choose the gauge, nor vice versa. the user does.

Kelvin,

Sorry, you're right. I expressed myself in an absolutist way. When I used the Feickert guage, I found the cartridge too far forward in the headshell. I now just use the Technics guage, and then check alignment with a Db systems protracter I've had for years.

cheers

[muffinman]

It might be fairly cheap to buy, Kevin, but it takes a fair bit of expense (in terms of optimising its performance with the appropriate ancillaries) to hear it at its *absolute* best. I've spent £1000s doing just that to get the (quite incredible) results I've obtained

However, even simply slapped on any available T/T or tonearm I'd rather listen to it than some, bland, soulless, non-descript modern Ortofon!!

Marco.

i use an ortofon samba on my blinged 12

i'll get me coat...

[pure sound]

Nice one, Guy. I'm glad you've heard one now on two decent systems

When you say "weighted", do you know how much exactly? You're talking ideally 20g on the headshell for optimum performance.

Actually I imagine the amount needed would depend on the effective mass of the particular arm in use

The above weaknesses are addressed by optimally matched transformers and the use of a high quality valve MM stage (like your P10 ). I'm not sure which type of transformers were used when you heard the 103R today but I've yet to hear any better than the Haufe ones in the Auditorium 23 SUT.

The cartridge was used with my own T10, the old Audio Innovations T2 and another transformer using some Sowter units (less good). It was via a P10 and A30.


I'm not sure about the mounting of the magnet circuit, but the 103SA has a glass fibre composite epoxy shell and 6N OFC wiring, also used in the 103R. I'm sure that part of the leap in performance I noticed changing from the 'R' or 'Pro' to the SA was due to the improved resonance characteristics and structural integrity of the SA's superior quality shell.

Structural integrity is hugely important in cartridges, as is plugging air pockets within the cartridge body and dressing the lead out wires properly away from the coils & former.

However, in my opinion, the likes of the 103SA when properly partnered and set-up is as good or if not better than any cartridge I've heard at around £2k. The SA is only £445, and it doesn't cost over £1500 to optimise it. I've heard Lyras and Dynavectors at that sort of price which don't have anything like the same musical qualities.

It'd be interesting to compare it with the current SPU Royal N or for that matter one of the modern but quite enjoyable sounding Shelters such as 901. I don't think the 'R' is as good a cartridge as either of those but it is a deal cheaper too.
I'd agree about Lyra's and Dynavectors but the Shelter is certainly colourful.

An interesting thread here about the 103, its variants, mass loading, electrical loading etc. I wouldn't agree with all of it but some good points are raised.
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/...x?postID=46#46

[bong]

i use an ortofon samba on my blinged 12

i'll get me coat...

that's one cart that i've been hearing good things about .. here it's about the same price as the 103R. will probably give it a go soon, to see how the 3 carts at the same range, the samba/103R/AT33PTG compare.

[bong]

Kelvin,

Sorry, you're right. I expressed myself in an absolutist way. When I used the Feickert guage, I found the cartridge too far forward in the headshell. I now just use the Technics guage, and then check alignment with a Db systems protracter I've had for years.

cheers

Peter,

No worries. I was just trying to make sure that it wasn't absolute, as I'm quite an analogue newbie myself. always refreshing to see new points of view being shared.

[Togil]

An interesting thread here about the 103, its variants, mass loading, electrical loading etc. I wouldn't agree with all of it but some good points are raised.
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/...x?postID=46#46

I especially like the term " Audiolumpenproletariat " ha ha

[Beechwoods]

I'm proud to be a member of the audiolumpenproletariat

[niklasthedolphin]

The Denon DL 103 is just a entry level / low end cartrige suiting the Technics 1210 entry level / low end TT very well.

"dolph"