The Great Denon DL103 Debate...

[Marco]

i can see where your coming from regarding the 103, i quite like it.. but would not buy one.. i dont think..

To me its the cartridge equiverlant of some of the fostex drivers..
I'd better put my tin helmet on now..

LOL! That's quite funny Steve, if you don't mind me saying, considering that when my A23 SUT was used there was next to bugger all difference between my 103R and your beloved vintage Shure, not to mention the respective decks (your TD124 and my KAB-1210) and tonearms (your Fidelity Research and my modified Technics arm)! And that was before I bought the Jelco and DL-103SA

The SL-15 is still to be finalised

mind you.. i have just bought £200 worth of different makes of stylus for a very elderly m3d.. and don't regret it at all...
most of my system is from the 60's or before.. maybe the 103 is a little to modern for me..

Love it!

Marco.

[David Price]

no - I'm well up for this thread Marco - that's fine. We seem to be getting somewhere now. I'll be back to answer your [a] and [b] when I've got a spare few minutes. Quite excited now, as we're actually talking about hi-fi for a change.

Still p'd off about Noel's TR7 comment though. I am going to turn up to the office in mine the day the new issue comes out! (Assuming it doesn't break down on the way in!)

[Spectral Morn]

Pax, Pax, Pax.....

I have never heard a Denon DL103 nor a Dynavector or quite a lot of other stuff that people like passionately so I can't enter that aspect of this debate. However I think that enough is enough. Should the writers in any audio magazine or else where be allowed to say they don't like products, music etc, YES. I know we all have things we love and find it hard when others don't share our passion. However I feel that they should be allowed to do so as long as they qualify why and then we agree to differ or re-think what they have shared and perhaps agree or not as the case may be. I for one used to love Steve Hillage and I could not understand why others didn't ,same with Hawkwind. A friend used to wind me up and call Steve Hillage, Steve Sillage and Hawkwind, Falcon Farts. I can now see why this might be so as my passion as waned a bit for these musicians. Same goes for certain audio products I used to like a lot but can now see their flaws. I may still have respect but like a coal out of the fire my love is dull now and not bright.

Being a user of Anthony Gallo ref 3.1's I can't understand how people listen to speakers with wood cabinets as I can hear the Box now when I do. Most listen to this type of speaker and enjoy. Does that mean I feel they are mad and unable to hear,no. I am sure the Gallo's do things others will not like(I can't think what) and I can respect that different opinion.

If I have any criticism it is perhaps that David and Noels critique was ( while I am sure tongue in cheek ) a little to close to being unqualified vilification of the Denon Dl103. This may be the case for new readers but not for old ones who know these writers views even Mr Briggs in his letter says and I quote "(down Dp, Down)". It is obvious that his liking of this cartridge would be countered by David and Noel. I for one prefer straight talking which is a very rare thing in this world and also rare in the printed audio world. However this is just two mens opinion and their experience is different to Marco's and is equally valuable as his opinion. Denon who still make the cart still advertise in HFW and allow other products to be reviewed. If a consensus is that this is a flawed classic that can be made to perform better then so be it. If you like the sound and can forgive the other issues enjoy if not well PAX.

Lets all wind our necks in and not prove anyones pet theories correct by this example (thread).

PAX D S D L ----- Neil

[Marco]

no - I'm well up for this thread Marco - that's fine. We seem to be getting somewhere now. I'll be back to answer your [a] and [b] when I've got a spare few minutes. Quite excited now, as we're actually talking about hi-fi for a change.

Excellent

Did everyone see that now? So let's hear no more about "Pax", etc, - no offence, Neil.

This is a perfectly friendly and good-natured discussion. I wouldn't have it any other way!

Marco.

[Clive]

Somehow it's very difficult to mix journalism with forums. There are all sorts of reasons but I think a lot of it comes down to the rhythm of the 2 media.

Print or e-zines are one-to-many with some limited response via letters. Copy is prepared somewhat in rush but nonetheless relatively at leisure.

Forums are one-to-many but instantly turn into many-to-one. Posts are written on the hoof.

There are expectations of journalists and their predispositions that often won't work in a forum environment.

Sure Noel was harsh and did overstep the mark but at least he has an opinion and will voice it, it adds colour.

David, did you try the 103 with the 1kg weight required on the headshell?

Marco, you like the 103 on a 1210. If you don't like Ortofons, maybe a more characterful deck would help redress the balance, at least to some extent anyway. We've discussed this before, I think we agree that it's more a matter of where in the system to place the colour.

Oh yes, David do ask Noel about the last article I had published in HFW DIY Supplement.

[SPS]

LOL! That's quite funny Steve, if you don't mind me saying, considering that when my A23 SUT was employed there was next to bugger all difference between my 103R and your beloved vintage Shure, not to mention the respective decks (your TD124) and tonearms (your Fidelity Research)! And that was before I bought the Jelco

Marco.

thank's marco..
beloved is a bit of an overstatemet .
unhealthy addiction i'd call it..
the reason i wouldn't buy one marco ... and i have heard a few
its the top end smoothness
i like the tone..
i'm sure denon did not make it to sound that way ( the top end..)

as you say getting it to work is a quite a job, and i'm glad you've gained further improvments since i last heard your set up

i fitted a new stylus, to mine a few weeks ago that made a fantastic difference, Ed and Scott where there for it first play and they had never heard such a difference from the one that you heard.. that had been playing for an hour beforehand
then i bent it...
thats where i really lost the plot..
hence £200 worth of stylus from all over the world..

don't forget the FR had the bluetack and the 25p.. holding it back i would say now

steve

[Spectral Morn]

None taken.

While typing my reply I see things have moved on at a pace. The dust has settled ....... to be continued.

D S D L ---- Neil

[Colin]

Having read the above about what, where, when and how, I have to say sorry can not remember all the detail. I have used a DL103, tried it in a RB600 and RB200?- Rega badged acos thingy. It's better in the 200 than 600, but for my taste unpleasant in either. You can get it to track acceptably I just found it dark in tone, communactive, but a touch miserable in nature. I would far rather use its little red or blue brothers.

I will go and sit in the dissenters corner for a little while now.

[Spectral Morn]

Hi Marco

How would a Denon DL 103 sound on an SME 5 arm or a Graham Phantom arm ? I have A Bat vk 10 se phono stage or can use a Chord Coral (the old one with the 4 rca inputs for balanced in) or a Pass Labs X ono or even an EAR pre with built in MM phono stage and an Tim D designed Esoteric Audio Devices Head step up. Turntables an Oracle Delphi mk 4 or an Sme Model 20 mk 1.

I might like to try one. I like VDH carts like the Frog Gold or the MC 10. I have tried Ortofon in the past (Mc 2000), a bit to lean for my tastes. I also have a Lyra Clavis which I like but find hard to get working right, Gain and loading issues. This sounded best years ago with an Audio Innovations S 500 and the EAD head step up. The TT was the Oracle with an Eminent Technology mk 2 arm (sadly I sold this. Neil you twit)

Regards D S D L ---- Neil

[Marco]

Sure Noel was harsh and did overstep the mark but at least he has an opinion and will voice it, it adds colour.

Normally I'd agree; certainly as far as forums go, colour is a good thing. But in a magazine you don't know whom you're putting off from subscribing by making such remarks, and in these hard times I would have thought that HFW need all the readers and subscriptions they can get! Basically, reader 'Nigel' didn't deserve the answer he got from Noel.

It was quite simply the tone Noel used; it read to me like the frustrated ramblings of someone with an axe to grind - basically it was rude and completely humourless, unlike David's earlier riposte which was similarly negative towards the 103, but humorously tongue-in-cheek with it.

Marco, you like the 103 on a 1210. If you don't like Ortofons, maybe a more characterful deck would help redress the balance, at least to some extent anyway. We've discussed this before, I think we agree that it's more a matter of where in the system to place the colour.

You're absolutely right, Clive. But I've got absolutely no intention of tailoring my system to suit cartridges whose inherent sonic presentation I dislike, mind you not as much as a Lyra Dorian, or a Lyra anything, come to think of it!

Marco.