Half-a-brain loonies and internet geeks

[anthonyTD]

Interesting as Mr Stewart gave the HDX the most glowing review in existence, a couple of months back in HFC I believe. PC audio<>Half-a-brain loonies and internet geeks <>HDX ;-)
Perhaps a conflict of interest is sculling around in there some where?
For the record, our reference high-end system uses PC driven audio as it's source, so that is our vested point of interest here!
Marco, why not, draft a letter and invite Malcom to quantify his comments, as they were posted in the Public domain.
For example I personally favor that MP's/ local councilors/ charity workers are made to declare any vested interests such as Free-Masony/relatives working for industry/magazine connections/which company their are directors of etc.
I would like to see ALL Jurno's have their 'statement of interest' printed in the mags their work is published in.
I know that golden pigs will not fly LOL, however it would be nice to finally understand which position they are actually coming from.
Controversial maybe, yet the card would be open so to speak that way at least the reader of the piece would be 'more informed' as to possible 'back room' issue that *may* have a bearing on the piece being reviewed.
Over the last 4 years I have met nearly 20 high profile Jurno's, some at great length others for no more than 20 minutes.
The vast majority have been polite, articulate, interested, and courteous.
Some have a very singular whit, other incredibly dry.
A couple were down right rude and obnoxious, a couple of floppy head ex public school boys (James May types), a few refugees from Woodstock too. A great mix.
Would you trust them do give you a fair unbiased review on broad spread of equipment, what ever that equipment was, within a real home style enviroment?
Let's have your views on this please...........

some good points in there mr C.
anthony,TD...

[anthonyTD]

Lol. It's not difficult; I'm being very specific and not generalising in the slightest. Who’s been going on about forums recently? Answer: Roy Gregory and Malcolm Steward, therefore those are whom I'm referring to!

Like I said, I'd perhaps also chuck Mr Keywood into the mix after his comments below to a readers' letter about a DL-103 in this month's magazine (the chap had merely written in to say how happy he was with his new turntable and was eloquently extolling the virtues of it and the 103), to which Noel replied:



Now don't get me wrong, Noel's entitled to his opinion the same as anyone else, but does he have to be so insulting and unconstructive with it? "Deluded" and "tat" indeed! Poor Nigel, eh? He only wrote in to tell of his happiness with his new turntable and cartridge and was subjected to dog's abuse! I wonder if he'll be renewing his subscription?

And what's Noel's sudden obsession with "modern" this "modern", that? Does he think that all modern kit is automatically better than old stuff? I doubt it, as the same man is a valve amp and Garrard aficionado par excellence! So it's ok then to extol the virtues of "modern product" versus old in reference to cartridges, but somehow the same doesn't apply to turntables and amps from their respective eras? His views are totally inconsistent and don't seem to align with the ethos of HFW, which has always championed both new and old gear, the latter providing that it's performance is still competitive today. The 103, when properly partnered and set-up definitely comes into that category, otherwise I (and 1000s of others) wouldn't be using it!

The problem with the 103 is that magazines always make the mistake of reviewing it with a modern turntable and tonearm and judge it accordingly on that basis - it simply will not work as it should that way. It needs to be assessed in the context in which it was originally designed. Fortunately, to make the review relevant today that doesn't necessarily mean wheeling out an old SP10 or Garrard with a suitably high-mass arm to match. All one needs is a Technics SL-1200 or 1210 (preferably modified by KAB or Sound Hi-fi), fitted with a Jelco SA-750D S-shaped detachable headshell arm, and a nice high-mass headshell, like the LH-18 from Audio Technica: all 'modern' currently available equipment, and through a nice phono stage (preferably valve) which uses the necessary matching transformers, and away you go... I guarantee that if Noel (or David) heard the 103 in that context (both) their conclusions would be somewhat different!

But will they do that in order to give the 103 a fair hearing before judging, instead of arriving at ill-informed conclusions such it being "an internet special that's been talked up in the (deluded) collective conciousness" based on relative ignorance from using the wrong partnering equipment?

The funniest thing of all though, is that with Mr Keywood the words "Denon DL-103" appear to be permanently impregnated in his mind, and like a red flag to a bull goes charging off in a 'fit of rage' even when the DL-103 wasn't even being referred to.

How so?

Well, Nigel, at the end of his letter wrote:



He never even mentioned the bloody DL-103 and yet Noel duly 'went off on one' as detailed above!!

So, I'd like to know what exactly his problem is with this particular cartridge, aside from issues regarding its sonic presentation. His innate dislike of the 103 appears to be run rather more deeply than simply not liking how it sounds...

Perhaps next time David joins us he could bring Noel with him to explain himself?

Marco.

[DSJR]

These people know less than you guys do. Surprised? I'm not.

Mr Keywood is a highly competant engineer I'm sure, but he leaves the subjective reviewing to others...

The DL103 does have its foibles and I for one, couldn't live with the conical tip and the tracing (not just tracking) problems this introduces at end of side (the HF definitely drops in level towards side end and this is bad enough with many eliptical styli as it is).

I have found it interesting to read that the DL103 really does need a massive arm to behave itself best but am not at all surprised to be honest. Heavy shells are available for the Technics arm and I'm sure a proper counterweight can be manufactured to take this into account. I wonder how much better the Jelco arm is then?

[Marco]

Hi Dave,

Mr Keywood is a highly competant engineer I'm sure, but he leaves the subjective reviewing to others...

Of that there is no doubt, and I enjoy reading his personal articles every month and his knowledgeable insight into hi-fi in a number of areas.

However, if that's the case and he leaves the subjective stuff to others, then David (as editor) should keep him well away from the letters page unless the query is technical in nature, instead of Mr Keywood dolling out ill-informed 'advice' based on inaccurate information and prejudice

The DL103 does have its foibles and I for one, couldn't live with the conical tip and the tracing (not just tracking) problems this introduces at end of side (the HF definitely drops in level towards side end and this is bad enough with many eliptical styli as it is).

That's absolutely correct, and there's no getting away from it - you can't deny the laws of physics. *However*, when set-up properly and used with the right ancillaries the effect of this is no where near as pronounced or as significant as is often inferred by the 103's detractors. And what effect there is, is rendered as an insignificance given how, when correctly set-up and partnered, the 103 sounds so god-damn musically 'right' and addictive.

I suspect that when thus optimised much of its magic is due to the use of Alnico magnets, which when used in loudspeakers or cartridges in my experience always give great bass, warmth of tone, and a naturalness of presentation that makes music entertaining, easy on the ear, but not dull or boring; simply with the 103 there is a total lack of the false 'excitement factor' and forwardness which I hear in most modern cartridges and which I don't feel is faithful to the sound of real voices and instruments. In my opinion, this is a 'patina' superimposed onto the music which is completely unnatural, even if some like the 'excitement' it gives the sound. This type of sound is, however, wrongly in my opinon deemed as 'right' or more 'accurate' - I consider the opposite as true. But then what is unquestionably 'accurate' in hi-fi? I don't believe there is such a thing, so you may as well just choose your own sonic flavour or favoured brand of distortion.

I know what the 103, though, is capable of sonically because I have the necessary experience - you've got no idea how many hours I've spent optimising the performance of this cartridge and getting to know what makes it tick; like you say far more so than Noel or probably any magazine reviewer! Therefore perhaps it's about time they sat up and took notice of what people like me have discovered and use the information accordingly to review the 103 in the right context and as such arrive hopefully at more informed conclusions?

I have found it interesting to read that the DL103 really does need a massive arm to behave itself best but am not at all surprised to be honest.

Given its pedigree, I don't see why this should come as a big surprise. I discovered this fact, Dave, I think sometime around 1984, and therefore the same rules apply today... The 103, whilst remaining in production, has not changed one iota since it was originally introduced so therefore neither has the context in which it requires to be used. Why should all of a sudden different rules apply or indeed it be expected to work optimally with modern ancillaries? Would you put incompatable modern parts in the engine of a classic car and expect it to run properly? Furthermore, as already mentioned, there's modern kit currently in production which allows it to be heard properly as intended by the manufacturer so there's no excuse to assess it with anything different.

HFW are known for 'going the extra mile' to review equipment in a context which is liable to ensure it performs optimally. I could cite numerous examples of this - it's one of the reasons why I buy the magazine every month. But for some bizarre unknown reason, to my dismay, the same fastidious effort isn't applied when reviewing the 103. It appears to be a case of 'shove it on modern turntable 'X', on a Rega arm, and hope for the best'; consequently when it sounds like a bag of nails it's the 103's fault and not the inappropriate choice of ancillaries!

All I'm asking for is some parity. I don't really give a monkey's what Noel thinks of the 103 (I will continue to use and enjoy it regardless), providing his opinion is grounded on sound knowledge and experience, otherwise there's no point in him expressing it in a well-established and respected national hi-fi magazine when his views appear to be based on a large dose of ignorance. Despite how it may seem, I'm not a 103 'fanboy'; I simply seek accuracy and informed comment on the matter so that people whom are less knowledgeable on the subject can make an informed choice and not be put off by someone's (apparently) deeply-ingrained bias.

Heavy shells are available for the Technics arm and I'm sure a proper counterweight can be manufactured to take this into account. I wonder how much better the Jelco arm is then?

The former is certainly available on AOS in terms of custom-made bespoke counterweight balances from the likes of John (Thrunobulaxx), but in actuality the supplied counterweieght balance with the Jelco arm fairly easily balances out my 103R (or Pro) and the high-mass Audio Technica headshell (a combined weight of some 30g including mounting hardware and cartridge wires) so there's no immediate requirement for a custom-made item.

How much better is the Jelco arm? Have you not read my detailed review on the other thread?

Marco.

[John]

I finally read the article in HIFI Choice by Malcolm
To be honest apart from being a bit of geek I really do not really feel part of his view on members who participate on forums. I think from most people point of view people either see my love of music as either enduring, quirky or geeky I guess at worse we can be seen as being similar to train spotters !!
I enjoy listening to music in a variety of formats including computer based audio. I can also hear silences as well!!!
I think what Malcolm is endangering a further polarising of people’s views and creating an us and them attitude that is not healthy. Most people on forums read magazines. Yes there will always be a few loud empty vessels with strong opinions but handing out insults is counter productive. I value being part of a debate sharing experiences and listening to others I see that there are many paths to achieving a great sound and strongly believe the main thing to remember is to enjoy the music.
I hope Marco can encourage Malcolm to be part of this debate as Mr C has suggested

[Marco]

I hope Marco can encourage Malcolm to be part of this debate as Mr C has suggested.

I will invite him to come here, or take the discussion to his forum where I am already a member

Marco.

[NRG]

.... But for some bizarre unknown reason, to my dismay, the same fastidious effort isn't applied when reviewing the 103. It appears to be a case of 'shove it on modern turntable 'X', on a Rega arm, and hope for the best'; consequently when it sounds like a bag of nails it's the 103 that's blamed and not the inappropriate choice of ancillaries!

...

Not entirely true Marco, I went to great lengths to get the 103 sounding good in my review of the 103 for HFW. I spent a great deal of time and effort researching it and consulted a contact in the broadcast industry, with many years of knowledge and first hand experience, on how to get the best sound from it... Noel may not like the cartridge (funny he said he'd never mention it again, ever, a year or so back) but Peter Comeau certainly does and there's one pair of ears that I trust with an opinion.

...as for inappropriate ancillaries maybe its more a case of an inappropriate cartridge choice for today's ancillaries...faced with ditching my then setup just to please the 103 was a non starter for me so I went the Ortofon route and never regretted it.

[Marco]

Hi Neal,

Yes, I remember your review and it was pretty well-balanced, but this is contrary to the attitude that unfortunately both David and Noel display when answering readers' letters regarding the 103. David's response in this month's magazine was negative, but at least humorously tongue-in-cheek, whereas Noel's was downright rude! There was no excuse for that. In my view they should show the same level of thoroughness and open-mindedness in their replies to letters about the 103 as you did in your review.

Furthermore, in order to put the record straight, as it were, I feel that the 103 should be given another chance, but this time assessed with more 'sympathetic' ancillaries, perhaps in conjunction with a review of the Jelco SA-750D arm on a Sound Hi-fi modified SL-1210? Both are examples of "today's ancillaries" and are current products, so therefore are 'relevant' in a 'let's promote what (retail shop-based) dealers sell and make profit from' context, which I suspect is more the real reason why the 103 is not 'flavour of the month' in magazines. I would use a 103R or Pro in any review, not the standard 103, as it is quite inferior to both. This would kill two birds with the one stone, as David has expressed an interest in this.

The essence of what I'm trying to achieve here, and what I consider very important, is to ensure that HFW readers writing in requesting information about the 103 receive knowledgeable and impartial advice based on listening experience where the 103 has been assessed correctly with appropriate ancillaries, rather than what appears as advice based on personal bias and a lack of testing the cartridge in an appropriate context.

I don't think that's too much to ask!

Marco.

[Spectral Morn]

Hi Marco

I was looking forward to your reply to my post, but you have got bogged down in HFW and DL103 cart. Not unrelated but not a response as such.

Regards D S D L ---- Neil

[Marco]

Hi Neil - yep, you're right. Sorry, but that's the way it goes sometimes. Rest assured though I'll reply to your earlier post later, more likely tomorrow, as I'm busy at the moment installing a brand new cartridge on my turntable

Marco.