Goodbye HiFi Wigwam

[Marco]

It's good to see that the future of Wigwam appears to be going in a positive direction, however I'd like to make a few observations on some of the views Wammers are putting forward on pfm (which I know will be read, if not necessarily replied to, here).

It's being suggested that because it says that profanity is allowed on the Wigwam AUP, that newbies should simply accept what is written or go elsewhere, which I guess on the surface is fine, but here's the problem:

Probably around 80% of newbies to forums join directly from links to discussions on search engines, and so don't even SEE the AUP - and then when they join, it may take a while to become aware of it and read it, by which time they may already have amassed a number of posts and began to enjoy themselves, *until* someone starts with 'c*nt this' and 'f*ck that', which they then may find offensive, and that's when the problems start.....

If the warning about profanity was made blatantly obvious to new members DURING THE REGISTRATION PROCESS, as well as on the AUP, then people could decide from the beginning whether Wigwam was for them or not. And of course if that were the case, there would then be no excuses afterwards for complaints about bad language!!

However, my main point is this: outside of the off-topic areas, such as the Pub and Car Park, where people simply like to rant (and indulge in discussing certain topics of questionable taste), why is it necessary for people to use extremely offensive language, such as the 'c' word?

I've witnessed this sort of language spill onto the main hi-fi areas of WW, as well as existing in the off-topic sections. Surely people have sufficient command of the English language not to need to use profanity when discussing music or hi-fi, or feel it necessary to ridicule others who simply hold different opinions?

I've also met some of the 'worst offenders' of this at Scalford, and how they behave in person is not how they behave when behind a keyboard - so why the difference? Basically, those guys need to treat people with the same respect when on a forum as they would do when face to face.

Some folks say that 'it's only words on a screen', but I completely disagree - it is MUCH more than that, as offensive remarks made in the public domain on the Internet, which could be read by thousands of people, are just as disturbing as when directed at someone in 'real life'. Therefore, don't write anything on a forum that you wouldn't also say to someone, face to face!

Mutual respect and tolerance is the key.

Therefore I do hope that the worst protagonists of the behaviour I'm referring to, and who are nice enough guys in real life, embrace the sentiments expressed above, and start behaving like educated and civilised human beings when posting on WW, as opposed to little more than ignorant thugs, or the community that they value so dearly will simply slip down into the cesspit of the Web and never return.....

Marco.

[bigdur]

Look chaps, it helps if you understand the actual facts of what was happening in the background running upto this........

With the upcoming series of 'Dragons Den' being recorded James jumped at the chance to pitch in front of the multi millionaire investors, he nervously put his pitch to the entrepreneurs to try and get a good investment for the Hifiwigwam site and the 'Pieshow' rights inclusive.
The pitch was off to a shaky start but soon enough big Jim picked up his courage and made one of the most impressive pitches in the dens history.
All was well with the dragons presented with a laptop each to happily surf through the many varied and interesting threads and topics.
James' dream combination was a Theo / Deborah collaboration and all seemed well with him managing to hold onto 60% of the shareholding for the full £100,000 of investment but then disaster struck!
James Caan had been quiet, on reflection too quiet. He smugly pointed out that the frequent and inappropriate references to ladies bits outside of the 'Pub carpark' section. You could see the contempt in Meadens eyes, she scowled at James. ''I'm OUT'', Paphitis, was out too, none too happy with the horrific language had upset his frequent den partner Deborah.
What to do, in desperation Mr Wigwam looked towards Bannatyne. ''I already have an investment in this sector'' he smugly replied but James already knew this for Duncan was a major shareholder in 'The Crossover Network' a north of the border hifi and music based forum.
With his world in tatters and his dreams smashed James left the den.


















































*None of this ever happened.

[wee tam]

I absolutely and humbly apologise. My mistake and I'm ashamed

no need to apolagise as no offence was taken
but this is the problem with the written word on forums , yes i am disabled , but not house bound and yes good days and bad days ,
but at the drop of a hat what i had written was taken litteraly
and the way the wam was , and yes i did cuss and spit with the best of them ,
if i had repied to your post , hoi c#nt i'm a cripple , you would have put your dander up and replied in a totally different manner
thus was the wam and most cat fights started in this manner ,
its easy when you mull it over in your head or hear it straight from someone's mouth when they say
you silly b#st#ard why did you do that, you get the emotion behind it and hear the way it was intended , trouble on a quick read / reply forum is trigger twitchers fire fast

[Darren]

I'm setting up a new business project at present and am far too busy to muck about on hifi forums but I have to say.......

I've never seen such a potentially explosive thread as well moderated. A touch of encouragement here, a gentle admonishment there, the odd blunt reminder. Marco certainly knows his stuff. A moderation masterclass in my limited experience that others could certainly learn from.

Nice one Marco - some of us feel lucky to be here.

(Richard from NVA will call me an arse kisser now!)

[Tim]

(Richard from NVA will call me an arse kisser now!)

If that's all Richard calls you, then you got off light fella

[bogle111]

It's being suggested that because it says that profanity is allowed on the Wigwam AUP, that newbies should simply accept what is written or go elsewhere, which I guess on the surface is fine, but here's the problem:

If the warning about profanity was made blatantly obvious to new members DURING THE REGISTRATION PROCESS, as well as on the AUP, then people could decide from the beginning whether Wigwam was for them or not. And of course if that were the case, there would then be no excuses afterwards for complaints about bad language!!
Basically, those guys need to treat people with the same respect when on a forum as they would do when face to face.

Some folks say that 'it's only words on a screen', but I completely disagree - it is MUCH more than that, as offensive remarks made in the public domain on the Internet, which could be read by thousands of people, are just as disturbing as when directed at someone in 'real life'. Therefore, don't write anything on a forum that you wouldn't also say to someone face to face!

Mutual respect and tolerance is the key.

Therefore I do hope that the worst protagonists of the behaviour I'm referring to, and who are nice enough guys in real life, embrace the sentiments expressed above, and start behaving like educated and civilised human beings when posting on WW, as opposed to little more than ignorant thugs, or the community that they value so dearly will simply slip down into the cesspit of the Web and never return.....

Marco.

Which is why I joined here. I saw the WW as too many little boys in very short pants, some still in diapers in fact. If someone has to resort to that sort of behaviour, then it is not my playground. "Playgrounds" I left years ago and are not for me - I would rather read a "discussion".

I run my own company, and will swear probably twice in 10 minutes. I am not annoyed with anyone but myself. Everybody knows that. I do not swear at clients nor talk about or deride other clients. i do not swear on the web.

Having been in the industry for 25 years, I have not seen this sort of behaviour in the industry. If someone did get out of line a little, his colleagues would pull him up, he was a reflection on his company.

I am afraid there were alot of people that I read on WW that had egos (and opinions) larger than their real knowledge, their vocabulary and their wallets. "Nice enough guys in real life" to me still smacks of being two-faced. Therefore, don't write anything on a forum that you wouldn't also say to someone face to face!

I read a lot more than I post, some of them should have done the same. I would imagine that some of the rantings were alcohol induced? Maybe they only posted because they were bored or frustrated. If I cannot contribute anything worthwhile, then I have nothing to say.

What you have here for me, Marco, is good. I have no axe to grind, and I do not see WW going down as such a big loss. Hi fi forums in general are judged by the lowest denominator. The only good thing for me about WW, was that it kept a few small minds in one place - that place - and I hope they do not migrate.

[Marco]

Hi Darren,

I'm setting up a new business project at present and am far too busy to muck about on hifi forums but I have to say.......

I've never seen such a potentially explosive thread as well moderated. A touch of encouragement here, a gentle admonishment there, the odd blunt reminder. Marco certainly knows his stuff. A moderation masterclass in my limited experience that others could certainly learn from.

Nice one Marco - some of us feel lucky to be here.

Thanks, mate. Your kind sentiments are much appreciated, but also remember that on AoS the running of the forum is a team effort. I am very fortunate to have such a great bunch of guys working alongside me, focussed on achieving the same goals

Anyway, I'm glad that I'm not being sent my P45 quite yet!

Marco.

P.S My thanks go to you too, Peter - nice one.

[Effem]

I'm setting up a new business project at present and am far too busy to muck about on hifi forums but I have to say.......

I've never seen such a potentially explosive thread as well moderated. A touch of encouragement here, a gentle admonishment there, the odd blunt reminder. Marco certainly knows his stuff. A moderation masterclass in my limited experience that others could certainly learn from.

Nice one Marco - some of us feel lucky to be here.

(Richard from NVA will call me an arse kisser now!)

As I am Acting Assistant Deputy Under Manager Elect for Richard, I will say it in his absence:-

Arse kisser

[Marco]

Promise I won't wash that spot for weeks!

Marco.

[alfie2902]

The point that most here seem to be missing is that the 'Wam works, & works very well with the swearing! It is the largest & busiest UK forum, it obviously does something very right!

Keeping swearing to a mininum here & at other HiFi forums, PFM etc, works very well too! This gives choice to HiFi forum uses, which IMO is a good thing! If you don't like the profanity then don't read the 'Wam!

I know James wants a forum with little censorship & that's what he tries to provide with the 'Wam, numbers prove this works for a lot of HiFi forum readers. Not all though & that's why AoS & other forums are invaluable, you find an 'home' that suits you!

The swearing at the 'Wam wasn't what made James pull the plug IMO.
It seems he was between a rock & an hard place with google Ads. Using the Adverts adds some financial backing to the running costs of the 'Wam & it was google putting pressure onto James about 'inapropriate' posts & their customers not wanting to be associated with the 'inapropriate' posts. As a temporary measure a swear filter was switched on, which James wasn't really happy to do, but did. A thread then started as to why this filter was needed & some strong posts ensued. I suspect James felt a little pissed off that the members weren't happy with his decision when he was only trying to do the right thing for the good of the forum, & only a temporary measure anyway! A decision he wouldn't of taken lightly as it is he who wants a forum with little censorship! At this point the plug was pulled!

So as you see the profanity is not the problem, forced censorship is!

Some of you here ask why the profanity is needed & the simple answer is it's not! That said, alot seem to want to use it & feel it's their right too & a forum whose AUP says it's fine to do so seems the right place to me!

There's quite a few intelligent, verbose, witty people post there, There's a great collection of knowledge & some great people! Some of which have pretty responsible jobs & more than likely wouldn't dream of using profanity while professonaly doing their jobs, but use the Wam sometimes to stress relieve with a good rant using profanities! Some just think it's their right & that enough of their freedom of speech has been eroded already! What I'm badly trying to say is some might find it uncouth but most are far from idiots IMO. Quite frankly the idea that people use profanity because they are ill educated or have a lack of vocabulary is a load of boll**ks! What really makes me smile is alot of us will pay good money to watch a comedian swear his/her head off & then tell our mates how brilliant he/she was!! Funny world init