Denon 103 Pro and his step up

[Marco]

Hi Scoobs,
yeah, you clocked me good and I used to be no-vice on the Mana forum which is where Marco and I first met.

Hi Chris,

I had no idea you were 'no-vice' - small world!

Do you miss the old Mana forum? I've tried to get Mr Pig to join but he's given up now on forums. Mind you that was about a year ago when I was running the infamous 'Hi-fi Corner', so if he sees this place now he might change his mind, and then again with Mikey's and my shenanigans here tonight he might not

Do you have contacts for some of the old crew?

Marco.

[dmckean]

Interesting link (the first one). The CineMag looks like another viable SUT option.

The CineMag works great and is very musical. It only cost me $150 to build but it took me six months to get around to it. That's part of the reason I don't mind paying Jim in the other thread.

Hagerman Audio Labs makes a step-up built around the Cinemags with a ton of loading options but he charges $649 for it.

http://www.haglabs.com/stepup.html

[Historicus]

Marco, grazie mille, for all your advices on the step up for my 103 Pro. Now I'm on search of the A23 because I'm too curious how it sounds together with the cartridge from Denon.
Ciao from Rome, Piero

[Chris]

Hi Marco,
Yes, I do miss the Mana Forum ´tho´of course "life was very different then" - and whatever anyone says, I don´t foresee ever removing my Phase 5 from under my Linn in fact one day I might even scout round for a couple of Soundstages to go to 7.
Pity no-one has taken up on a "New Mana" or at least JW could have pointed to a replacement material for the "balanced boards" - I have mislaid 2 of mine for my speaker bases and don´t know what best to use.
Also a shame about Mr. Pig - he was always a good read and a mine of suggestions for aging beginners like myself. I do see threads from familiar posters on different forums from time to time - even Parry (or was it Kilroy)? "Nuff said.
All the best,
Chris

[griffo104]

Blimey, so many things to disagree with Marco on this thread

I still find it very strange with people declaring the Lyras to be clinical. I've never found this in my setup. I've certainly never heard bass as well textured and with as much depth and detail, both in my own setup and several others I've been to visit (in bake offs otr at friends). I always welcome going back to listening to the Dorian and it's great even sound.

Listening to something like Squarepusher where the bass is making the walls tremble always puts a smile on my face and for me it;s still by far the best cartridge I've used for claissical music, it gets the seperation of instruments and scale spot on. Of course this is just personal preferences.

when I purchased the Orbe it had a DL103 on the end of the tonearm and I really couldn't wait to get it off. I really hated the thing. Of course I'm a bit more aware that a Rega based arm isn't the best to hear this cart now but judging from what people on the firums were saying at the time you wouldn't think that.

As for the DL304 (and DL301ii I also own), both these carts benefit hugely from going through a step-up. I've owned a DL304 and it needs a real quality active set up to get the most out of it, I've heard it doing much better things through a step up. The problem I have with the DL304 and DL301ii is they lack dynamics, imo, especially when compared to the Lyra cart and even comparing both to a Goldring Elite you realise how soft the bass performance from these carts are - even through a step up.

I keep meaning to revisit the DL103, just for curiosity more than anything, now realising that more weight would need to be added to the Technoarm. What I find so strange about this is people like Arthur from Funk using DL103 carts in his demos with just a bog standard RB300. He always seems happy enough with it.

[Marco]

Hi Dave,

The CineMag works great and is very musical. It only cost me $150 to build but it took me six months to get around to it. That's part of the reason I don't mind paying Jim in the other thread.

Hagerman Audio Labs makes a step-up built around the Cinemags with a ton of loading options but he charges $649 for it.

http://www.haglabs.com/stepup.html

Thanks for that. I think I might put all these links for good SUTs into a thread in 'The Artist's Palette' for useful future reference. That way people will know where to find them easily should they be looking to buy an SUT

Marco.

[Marco]

Marco, grazie mille, for all your advices on the step up for my 103 Pro. Now I'm on search of the A23 because I'm too curious how it sounds together with the cartridge from Denon.
Ciao from Rome, Piero

Prego, Piero. Non è niente

The best thing for you to do is email Tone Imports and find out who your nearest dealer is; then order one from there. I doubt you'll find any for sale on Ebay or second-hand.

Marco.

[Marco]

Hi Chris,

Yes, I do miss the Mana Forum ´tho´of course "life was very different then" - and whatever anyone says, I don´t foresee ever removing my Phase 5 from under my Linn in fact one day I might even scout round for a couple of Soundstages to go to 7.

Indeed; life was very different then, and there's a lot you can do now that perhaps you didn't know about before! I'll explain... I still have all my 'Mana' supports - *but* only my stainless steel 6-tier rack and speaker stands are 'genuine' Mana. I sold all my 'official' racks and Stages for good money and got identical replicas made for a fraction of the price from a local metal fabricator. If you get it done right they sound identical to the stuff JW sold, in fact better because you get it made in non-magnetic stainless steel instead of magnetic angle-iron! I've got tons of the stuff now, which would have cost me a small fortune from Mana...

I've got contacts for all the stuff you need - powder coaters, glazers, balanced boards, spikes, etc. PM me and we can chat about getting you a couple of Stages and some balanced boards

Pity no-one has taken up on a "New Mana" or at least JW could have pointed to a replacement material for the "balanced boards" - I have mislaid 2 of mine for my speaker bases and don´t know what best to use.

I've dealt with the latter issue - you have no worries on that score. With regard to the "New Mana" thing, JW and I discussed starting the business again under a new format but it never got off the ground before we ended up falling out - long story! I've thought about doing it myself, as I have all the right contacts, but I just haven't had the time with running my own art business and now this place. I know I could make it work and be profitable but perhaps some other time. I don't mind getting the odd few bits done for people, though.

Also a shame about Mr. Pig - he was always a good read and a mine of suggestions for aging beginners like myself. I do see threads from familiar posters on different forums from time to time - even Parry (or was it Kilroy)? "Nuff said.

I'm confident I'll get the piglet on here someday. There are also a few of the old crew on pfm, so perhaps they'll find their way here in due course.

Marco.

[Marco]

Hi Griffo,

Blimey, so many things to disagree with Marco on this thread

Well it'd be right bloody boring if everyone agreed with me all the time, so disagree away!

I still find it very strange with people declaring the Lyras to be clinical. I've never found this in my setup. I've certainly never heard bass as well textured and with as much depth and detail, both in my own setup and several others I've been to visit (in bake offs otr at friends). I always welcome going back to listening to the Dorian and it's great even sound.

It's simply a matter of context. Don't get me wrong, if Lyras are your 'thing' they'll do the job better than most. I've owned a couple (a Helikon and Argo i) so I know exactly what they do. The thing is when you get a 103R or 103Pro working optimally (and I mean optimally) they just sound utterly sublime in every area, particularly in the bass, which trust me makes Lyras sound positively anaemic! The only area they lack slightly in is absolute detail retrieval at higher frequencies. If you want to dissect every nuance on a recording with forensic precision then you need a cartridge with a good fine-line or VDH stylus. However, when a 103R or Pro have been optimised to their maximum potential everything else is spot on in the most beguiling way.

The standard 103 is not in the same league for a variety of reasons so I will omit it from the discussion. The 'R', Pro, or 'SA' versions are where it's at with 103s.

Trouble is, getting a 103R or Pro to sound right (as it was intended by the manufacturer) is both difficult and expensive. First of all, you need a top-notch direct-drive or high-mass belt-drive T/T to hear it at its best (bouncy decks or Regas just won't do) and, most crucially, a high-mass arm with a detachable headshell from a similar era to when the 103 itself was produced (think Fidelity Research, SME 3012, if you have a deck big enough to take it, Denons own arms, AT broadcast, etc). It only works on the 1210's arm once the counterweight balance and existing headshell have been upgraded to something which adds more mass.

Once all that's been attended to, you then need to buy a suitable MC step-up transformer which loads the 103 correctly and provides the correct impedance and gain, and then run it through a top-notch MM valve phono stage, if you wish to maximise its capabilities. The last bit is optional but preferable.

Now tell me, how many people do you know with 103s that've gone to all that bother? The fact is the majority of people using 103s are only hearing a fraction of its potential, and it is *this* that it gets unfairly judged on. The 103 may initially be cheap to buy because it's made by a huge Japanese company like Denon, but getting it to perform optimally sure as hell isn't!

when I purchased the Orbe it had a DL103 on the end of the tonearm and I really couldn't wait to get it off. I really hated the thing. Of course I'm a bit more aware that a Rega based arm isn't the best to hear this cart now but judging from what people on the firums were saying at the time you wouldn't think that.

Exactly. Like I said, that's the problem. The 103 just isn't meant for set-ups like that. Cartridge and tonearm fashions have changed dramatically since the 103's era and so you simply can't use it with most of today's ancillaries if you have any notion of hearing it properly.

As for the DL304 (and DL301ii I also own), both these carts benefit hugely from going through a step-up. I've owned a DL304 and it needs a real quality active set up to get the most out of it, I've heard it doing much better things through a step up. The problem I have with the DL304 and DL301ii is they lack dynamics, imo, especially when compared to the Lyra cart and even comparing both to a Goldring Elite you realise how soft the bass performance from these carts are - even through a step up.

I don't doubt that the 304 needs quality ancillaries to get it working optimally, but most people I know who use them get very good results simply running them through good quality active MC stages. It tends to be more the 103 and DL-S1 which are talked about in conjunction with SUTs. I suspect that Denons own models are produced more with the 103 in mind than the 304. However, I believe that all low output MCs perform better through specifically-matched SUTs than through even the best active MC stages. There is simply less noise that way, and noise is the main enemy where phono stages and moving coil cartridges are concerned.

Also, your DL301 sounds nothing like an optimally set-up 103R or Pro, so until you hear what the latter sounds like (perhaps by visiting me sometime?) you'll never be able to appreciate what I'm getting at and why I think Lyras sound so 'frigid' in comparison

I keep meaning to revisit the DL103, just for curiosity more than anything, now realising that more weight would need to be added to the Technoarm.

My advice is only do it if you're willing to go the whole hog as I've described. Any 'halfway house' measures will only result in disappointment and ultimately the wrong impression about what a 103R or Pro are truly capable of.

What I find so strange about this is people like Arthur from Funk using DL103 carts in his demos with just a bog standard RB300. He always seems happy enough with it.

Yes, I know, but Arthur is Arthur. I know him quite well - he's a lovely chap and an extremely talented designer, but at shows his demonstrations - how shall I put it - are not set-up for ultimate sound quality... He uses fairly bog-standard ancillaries simply to show differences between his deck and a full Linn one, which are always readily apparent in my experience; the 103 fitted on the Rega 'does the job' in that sense. You'll notice that whenever the Sapphire is demonstrated by a Funk Firm dealer there are no 103s anywhere in sight!

Marco.

[griffo104]

Marco,
When I went looking for a new cart to have a play with I refused to go near the usual suspects with regards to forums. I tend to find forums, especially on our side of the pond, tend follow fashions quite strongly only for them to slag off the component they raved about so much previously.

I did a LOT of research in to carts and found a lot of 'happy' DL103 owners (and not just the extended models you mention) were doing a lot more with them then simply slapping them on the end of a Rega of Linn arm. this really opened my eyes up to the whole hifi thing. the other pattern I noticed was how many serios vinly lovers, and I mean very serious, hating all forms of digital playback, all pretty much ignored any epensive cart. So many seemed to be happy with the cheaper end of the market - the baby Benz Micro bing particularly popular.

I chose the DL301 for various reasons. Their popularity in Japan, where they simply don't bother with the DL304, it;s stylus profile, the exceptional mid band and tonal balance. It has an amazingly natural sounding treble.

I have the extra heacy weight that comes with the Technoarm, so I would just need to add more weight at the headshell end but I may well go out and get a DL103R at some point. I have the Denon AU-300LC which, as you mention, get matched up to these carts quite a lot.

It may be a interesting few months.