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[Marco]

Hi Peter,

What about this, then (just so I can put it to bed, as it were):

I just would've thought that, as with external speakers, the bigger the 'cone radiating area' the bigger the sound and the deeper the bass. I know earphones don't have cones in the conventional sense, but you get my point. I simply can't imagine those tiny little in-ear things, no matter how high quality, having the same bass response as the likes of my full-size AKG 701s, but hey ho...

Your thoughts please?



Marco.

[griffo104]

Griffo,

All good points. Yes I prefer the in room speaker experience, but I still believe that the ehadphone experience is closer to the result intended by the recording artist/sound engineer.

Peter,
I would agree with that statement and if you want to concentrate on a recording for pure detail then it's better with headphones, but you would miss the room bouncing when you play James Lavelle at silly volumes

[griffo104]

Griffo,


Yep, you're right. I think it's a luxury issue, but that doesn't excuse the rank poor quality of so many of today's pressings, even 'audiophile' ones. Why the f*ck with all the technology available nowadays can't they produce consistently perfectly flat records which aren't full of mold-release stains? And the recording quality on some of them is diabolical. There just doesn't seem to be the same care taken over the whole process as there was in the 50s.

I can't say that I've noticed any of the distortion you mention with the 103. It's just the feeling that I'm not getting the most out of the mono recordings in a musical sense.

Marco.

Marco, on yor first point, if you ever get a chance check out the Music Matters Blue Note 45rpm issues, stunning, quality gatefilds with wonderful photos from the sessions inside. Superb pressing and excellent sound quality.

On your other point, I suppose it's dependant on the type of stylus. The Lyra has one is these new silly thin ones meant to read the groove as accurately as possible, but that's a stereo groove. In the case of my listening it's not an annoying distortion but it is there and it's agood excuse to get another deck and a mono setup (as if I need an excuse).

I'm quite looking forward to the DD experience but it's going to have to be pretty special for me to get rid of the Orbe. The only way of truly finding out is to do it in your own system with your own records. that's one of the reasons for also getting another headshell, one for the mono and one for the stereo cart. Allow me to make comparisons easier.

[Peter Stockwell]

I just would've thought that, as with external speakers, the bigger the 'cone radiating area' the bigger the sound and the deeper the bass. I know earphones don't have cones in the conventional sense, but you get my point. I simply can't imagine those tiny little in-ear things, no matter how high quality, having the same bass response as the likes of my full-size AKG 701s, but hey ho...

Marco.

Leaving aside that you haven't heard my Shure's and I can't hear your AKG 701's. I would expect the AKG's to be better, because they're a 250€ phone and the Shure's were c. 100€.

As I understand psycho acoustics, you don't actually hear bass you feel it. I.e, it's not our ears that tell us how low the bass goes. I do hope there's a contributor here that can explain this phenomenon, or tell me I'm talking rubbish, whichever it is. The volume of air that the in ear thingies have to work with is a lot less than your circumaural phones.

To my knowledge, nobody has ever investigated the frequency spectrum of the basillary membrane at very low frequencies. However, the decreasing sensitivity of the ear indicates that the membrane is relatively “stiff” for this frequency range. Therefore it can be expected that the relative amount of overtones at the lowest frequencies strongly increases. This phenomenon is seen with many music instruments. A “cheap” piano does not really produce a 27.5 Hz tone when one strikes the lowest key, because the resonance board is simply too small to swing at 27.5 Hz, but it produces a tone that appears to be 27.5Hz due to the principle of the missing fundamental.

http://www.headwize.com/projects/sho...meier5_prj.htm

I pulled that off the web, so yes you can't trust it 100%, I was just looking for something to support what I was getting at. I'm sure more definitive information could be found, I wanted to give a starting point.

cheers

[Marco]

Griffo,

Marco, on yor first point, if you ever get a chance check out the Music Matters Blue Note 45rpm issues, stunning, quality gatefilds with wonderful photos from the sessions inside. Superb pressing and excellent sound quality.

I have some stuff (jazz) on Blue Note but not with 45rpm. I'll keep a look out!

On your other point, I suppose it's dependant on the type of stylus. The Lyra has one is these new silly thin ones meant to read the groove as accurately as possible, but that's a stereo groove.

Good point and I'm sure you're right. The 103 has an old-fashioned conical stylus with a 'large footprint', so I'm sure this helps with mono recordings. Also, it was invented in the late 50s so I'm sure was partially designed to play the music from that era. I'm not a big fan of Lyras (certainly ones I've heard), as I find them a bit 'toppy' and 'CD-like' in their presentation - basically they lack 'emotion' for me, but that's another discussion.

I'm quite looking forward to the DD experience but it's going to have to be pretty special for me to get rid of the Orbe.

It won't happen until you get the deck properly modified, or at the minimum, an arm-rewire. The Orbe is a superb T/T and will take some beating. I don't mind medium to high-mass belt-drive T/Ts, as they do their job pretty well. It's the low-mass ones which in general I think are poor.

All you can realistically hope for when listening to your 'Sony' (it's really a 1210 in disguise) is that you hear its potential and this convinces you that it's worth spending more money on it to challenge the Orbe in all areas. What you should hear is a more precise sound in terms of pitch and timing (that's the effect of near-perfect speed stability) and a tighter, 'harder', and more propulsive bass. You may also hear better clarity and more detail with music.

What you have to do (and this is the key thing) is to separate the inherent sonic signature of the Orbe (it will have one) from the music, i.e. what's actually on the recording and not simply the Orbe's interpretation of it. Difficult, I know, but experience can tell you this. Then judge if it is *this* you prefer to the more 'accurate' presentation of the Sony's drive mechanism. It's this 'accuracy' thing: the sense that you're not listening to a stylus tracking grooves that good D/Ds bring to the party. Otherwise, you may end up simply being seduced by the Orbe's particular brand of coloration and deem the deck itself as 'superior'.

This is why, for example, people love the sound of LP12s. It's not that their presentation is accurate; it's that the type of euphonic coloration superimposed onto the music is (for some) highly addictive, and that's fine, but this is merely an artifice of the deck and not part of what's actually recorded on the record. Trouble is, once you've convinced yourself that this sound is musically 'correct' then you become firmly indoctrinated into the 'Linn music-making philosophy' and your wallet gets progressively lighter chasing the 'ultimate' in this particular brand of (false) 'musicality'...

If you really want to hear what's going on in a vinyl recording then quite simply you need a turntable that constantly turns at the right speed without wavering, and that's high quality D/D, idler-drive (a-la Garrard) or high-mass belt/string-drive (a-la Brinkmann La Grange or Platine Verdier). After that if you want some 'character' added, buy a cartridge (and arm to a lesser extent) that do this.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

The only way of truly finding out is to do it in your own system with your own records. that's one of the reasons for also getting another headshell, one for the mono and one for the stereo cart. Allow me to make comparisons easier.

I totally agree, and you've done exactly the right thing. Meanwhile you may like to read my review of the LH-18 headshell from Audiocubes:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=550

If you can afford it, go for it, because you will quite simply not find a better detachable headshell anywhere!

Marco.

[Marco]

Leaving aside that you haven't heard my Shure's and I can't hear your AKG 701's. I would expect the AKG's to be better, because they're a 250€ phone and the Shure's were c. 100€.

As I understand psycho acoustics, you don't actually hear bass you feel it. I.e, it's not our ears that tell us how low the bass goes. I do hope there's a contributor here that can explain this phenomenon, or tell me I'm talking rubbish, whichever it is. The volume of air that the in ear thingies have to work with is a lot less than your circumaural phones.



http://www.headwize.com/projects/sho...meier5_prj.htm

I pulled that off the web, so yes you can't trust it 100%, I was just looking for something to support what I was getting at. I'm sure more definitive information could be found, I wanted to give a starting point.

Interesting stuff, Peter! And I'm sure there's something in it. I guess it boils down again to the old-fashioned method of listening to both headphones in the same system and comparing the results. Theories, no matter how erudite, are fine up to a point but the proof of the pudding with hi-fi is always in the listening.

One thing I would say though is perhaps there's a difference between 'hearing' bass notes and 'scale' - by this I mean a sense of 'weight' and 'authority' with music, which I always find lacking when listening to smaller speakers than I use even if they go as low, or lower in terms of frequency response. The AKGs, with suitable material, pump out huge slabs of bass that you can feel 'pulsing' (for want of a better word) on the sides of your ears. It's this 'physicality' in the presentation you get from large cones shifting air and the 'richness' of the sound which I'm referring to. And I love this! I simply thought a similar thing would apply with larger diaphragm headphones compared to those that were much smaller.

Perhaps you could bring your Shures with you whenever you visit and we can put this one to bed?

Marco.

[Peter Stockwell]

Interesting stuff, Peter! And I'm sure there's something in it. I guess it boils down again to the old-fashioned method of listening to both headphones in the same system and comparing the results. Theories, no matter how erudite, are fine up to a point but the proof of the pudding with hi-fi is always in the listening.

Perhaps you could bring your Shures with you whenever you visit and we can put this one to bed?

I don't usually go very far without them, if I have any train or plane travel. The only problem, is that the moulds are for my ears, although I would bring the squishy fits any ears inserts with me too.

We'll get back to this one day, and thanks again for the invite, I do like your neck of the woods!

Thanks

[Marco]

I'm sure we'll get round any such challenges. I would just be curious to know what the outcome was.

Yes I like it very much around here - it's somewhat different to Glasgow, although I love Glasgow as a city, and the people are very friendly, but I much prefer living in a smaller town near the countryside. I'm not really a city person.

The scenery within less than 15 minutes of leaving my house is simply stunning; you're right in amongst the wilds of rural North Wales which is sometimes a land that time forgot... And I love that because I hate the 'rat race' of modern life and like to escape to a haven where people have time for each other, there is lovely fresh air, peace and tranquillity, and a slower more relaxed pace of life

I wouldn't thank you to live in somewhere like London, although Paris would be cool simply because I adore French food and wine!

Marco.

[griffo104]

It won't happen until you get the deck properly modified, or at the minimum, an arm-rewire. The Orbe is a superb T/T and will take some beating. I don't mind medium to high-mass belt-drive T/Ts, as they do their job pretty well. It's the low-mass ones which in general I think are poor.

All you can realistically hope for when listening to your 'Sony' (it's really a 1210 in disguise) is that you hear its potential and that this convinces you that it's worth spending more money on it to challenge the Orbe in all areas. What you should hear is a more precise sound in terms of pitch and timing (that's the effect of near-perfect speed stability) and a tighter, 'harder', and more propulsive bass. You may also hear better clarity and more detail with music.

What you have to do (and this is the key thing) is to separate the inherent sonic signature of the Orbe (it will have one) from the music, i.e. what's actually on the recording and not simply the Orbe's interpretation of it. Difficult, I know, but experience can tell you this. Then judge if it is *this* you prefer to the more 'accurate' presentation of the Sony's drive mechanism. It's this 'accuracy' thing: the sense that you're not listening to a stylus tracking grooves that good D/Ds bring to the party. Otherwise, you may end up simply being seduced by the Orbe's particular brand of coloration and deem the deck itself as 'superior'.

This is why, for example, people love the sound of LP12s. It's not that their presentation is accurate; it's that the type of euphonic coloration superimposed onto the music is (for some) highly addictive, and that's fine, but this is merely an artifice of the deck and not part of what's actually recorded on the record. Trouble is, once you've convinced yourself that this sound is musically 'correct' then you become firmly indoctrinated into the 'Linn music-making philosophy' and your wallet gets progressively lighter chasing the 'ultimate' in this particular brand of (false) 'musicality'...

If you really want to hear what's going on in a vinyl recording then quite simply you need a turntable that constantly turns at the right speed without wavering, and that's high quality D/D, idler-drive (a-la Garrard) or high-mass belt/string-drive (a-la Brinkmann La Grange or Platine Verdier). After that if you want some 'character' added, buy a cartridge (and arm to a lesser extent) that do this.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

Marco, I know exactly where you are coming from. I owned a Valhalla LP12 and upgraded it to the Cikus/Lingo level. It became much more neutral and the colourations were much more obvious. However, I would argue in going more neutral the up to date LP12 wasn't as much fun. The older spec LP12 just had me wanting to listen to records ALL the time even if it meant going without sleep. At time I still wonder if neutrality is what I'm after. The Orbe SE, imo, was a serious step up from the fully kitted out LP12.

By the way it's good hear you mention the Brinkmann and Verdier decks. I've been lucky enough to hear both decks on a couple of occasions now and they are both amongst the very best source components I've heard. The build quality on the Brinkmann is superb.

There are new DD decks coming out, the GP Monaco, the Brinkmann Oasis and SAP of Italy have a very interesting DD deck out there.

As for Lencos, don't go there. I bought a lovely Leak example of one - an L75 in lovely condition. This has a bouncy plinth, but not in the same level of engineering as an LP12 or Michell deck. The plan was to slap it ina new plinth and get new arm for it. It's still sat there 2 years later. The mains cable has a very old 2 pin plug on it so it probably needs changing and the wiring updated.

I was so looking forward to go idler drive. I refuse to sell it, 2 people have asked me, even the lid is immaculate and with a single mark on it, but it just looks so lovely. I'll get some time and get it sorted at some point. So that'll be a belt, suspended deck, a DD drive and an idler drive I am just very greedy.

[Peter Stockwell]

I wouldn't thank you to live in somewhere like London, although Paris would be cool simply because I adore French food and wine!

Paris was great when I first got here, but I find it too urban now, not enough green. Takes too long to get to the golf course . We're a few clicks away in the surburbs, only 10 minutes away on the train, it's a bit quieter and a bit greener. We also have a very fine community theatre at the end of our street, with plays and music. I've signed up for 4 or 5 jazz shows there, including Stacey Kent, Stefano di Battista and Ron Carter (yes, the ex Miles Davis sideman).

I've cut down enormously on wine, still have 120 or so bottles in cellar, but we're only drinking 1 a week. I'm afraid some of it will be vinegar before we get to it!