SL-1200 Platters, bearings, mats and PSU's, cartridges, arms, and more...

[Marco]

I don't expect Dave C will reply, but I think it's important some of his statements/assertions below are challenged, as in some cases I feel what's written is both contradictory and rather misleading.....

Please note, Dave that none of the following is personal, but it's important that I am frank, honest and to the point.

You wrote on the Timestep forum:

And here is a breakdown of that world so far:-

Bearings
Timestep were the first to design a new bearing and just used the original Technics bearing housing but changed both the spindle and the sleeve, and at the same time made the bearing diameter, and hence the bearing surface, twice as big. A ceramic ball and PTFE thrust pad completed the design.

Yes, but as the metal used on the original Technics bearing (the 'donor' unit for the Timestep one) is not of exceptionally high quality (I believe largely chosen by Technics as the material is easy to mold into the necessary shape for mass production), and certainly not of the quality of construction of the bespoke solid brass one of Mike New's, it could be said that what you've done is, no offence intended, akin to polishing a turd.

The oil can be changed easily and very interesting results have been observed in fine tuning the viscosity of the oil depending on the platter, mat and cartridge used. There are no downsides to the Timestep bearing.

Other than of course the very obvious one which is that it's fundamentally (and fatally) flawed from the beginning by the relative poor quality of the 'donor' Technics bearing from which the Timestep one is produced.......!

Furthermore, I am reliably informed that there is no need whatsoever to change the oil in the Mike New bearing to maintain optimum performance, and that's why the unit is sealed.

Mike can of course supply the rationale on this if necessary.

The Mike New bearing is a very large, strong and heavy bearing.

Yes - that's precisely why it works so well!

However we had so many of them returned to us that we were forced to discontinue them.

Why exactly were they returned?

Is there any chance of inviting these people onto AoS, Dave, so people here can have a chat with them and we can be party to what the problems were?

I think it's important that potential customers of the Mike New bearing are made aware of any problematic issues regarding its design, but only from the people who've supposedly experienced these problems.

The bearings that Martin T and I are using seem to be fine - and indeed no-one else I know who uses one has expressed any problems....

In hotter countries than the UK they could seize at 45rpm.

I've tackled this already, but it's worth mentioning again.... If that were really a genuine problem then I'm quite sure Mike would've discovered it, as the bearings are made in Australia, where as you know, the temperature in most months is liable to be a 'tad warm'!

Also there is no way of checking the amount of oil in the bearing, if any.

That's because (due to its specific design) there is no need to check the amount of oil in the bearing, thus once it's been filled from the well at the top of the housing, with the specially selected oil, and it slowly trickles down inside, the bearing remains otherwise sealed to prevent people who don't know what they're doing adversely affecting how it has been designed to function (by using the wrong oil, for example).

Reports surfaced of the lack of a proper oil seal and the oil simply dribbling away.

How could this happen when the unit is most definitely properly sealed - "dribbling away" from where exactly??

Finally it has been found by most users, that it is impossible to change the oil.

That's true, and it's been designed that way because the oil won't require changing in the lifetime of you, me, or anyone else who buys a Mike New bearing.

The additional friction of this bearing causes the motor to use twice as much power.

I have been reliably informed that this is untrue. Could you please supply some measurements that confirm your assertion?

The MN bearing causes the motor to use a little more power, which is well within its handling capabilities, and certainly no more so than does the added extra mass of placing a heavy copper mat on the platter, which is a modification you currently recommend.

I will have several Mike New bearings on eBay soon at a starting price of 99p, no guarantee/warranty given or implied.

I think that's a rather snide and uncalled for remark, Dave. You've now given Mike the green light to respond in a similar vein, should he choose to do so, which I would now have no option but to allow, particularly as he has no right of reply on the Timestep forum, as you have banned him........

However, on a positive note, I would urge anyone wishing to own a truly superb quality bearing, and major upgrade for the SL-1200/1210, to snap one up for 99p!!

One thing you haven't considered is that when the people on the Timestep forum who've indicated, somewhat sheep-like, that they're going to remove the MN bearing and fit a Timestep one to their T/Ts, prompted in my opinion by your unjustified scaremongering, they will subsequently hear a significant deterioration in sound quality because the fact is they will be downgrading to an inferior bearing!

That's, incidentally, no reflection on the way you have modified the stock Technics bearing (you call the 'Timestep'), which I'm sure will improve matters, but rather that all you've done, because it's all you CAN do, is apply a bandage to what, as a result of cost constraints, is a relatively poor bearing. Thus the 'Timestep bearing' can in no way be regarded as a true fix.

It'll therefore be interesting finding out what people say when their bearings are changed, presuming of course that they're not just simply blinkered 'disciples' of your products without the gumption to be honest.....

Timestep were going to make a new bearing but have decided that evolution is better than revolution, and in reality the original Timestep bearing does the job quite properly, and especially with tuned oil.

Given the already mentioned limitations in the design of the 'donor' bearing for the Timestep, I think that assertion is highly unlikely.

PSU
The original Timestep PSU was more than man enough for the standard platter. However, bowing to demand, we introduced the HE version with a measured peak output capacity of 60 amps. The HE is a great PSU, but really only necessary when third party modifications are made to the turntable.

Such as the Mike New platter, the use of which you used to champion to the hilt?

If the HE PSU is only of benefit when third party modifications have been carried out to the SL-1200, then as you're no longer going to be producing a heavy platter, or promoting its use, then what's the point of having the HE?

Aside from that, I would contend that the HE would still outperform the stock Timestep PSU even when the SL-1200 is used with its standard platter, simply because the higher capacity of the HE gives the turntable a 'stiffer' and cleaner power supply. I've heard the sonic effect of this, for example, when comparing the Paul Hynes SR3 to the stock Timestep using the standard platter on my T/T.

PSU's the size of breeze blocks provide nothing extra apart from "expectation bias" which quite simply means, if you expect it to sound better, then you will perceive that it does sound better.

Lol! Is that the best you can come up with, Dave? I presume that by "PSU's the size of breeze blocks" you're referring to the Paul Hynes SR5?

Sorry, all I can do is chuckle at that and content myself with having significant knowledge to the contrary!!

And not that old chestnut again, simply trotted out at a convenient time? Yes, expectation bias exists in some circumstances, but that's most certainly NOT what's happened on this occasion. Such is the huge improvement the SR5 makes to the performance of the SL-1200, one would be able to discern it blindfolded! We should test this sometime.

There is no magic about power supplies, except for their ability to provide power and quickly, no SL-1200 PSU so far seen or heard of can deliver as much instantaneous power as the HE.

I don't doubt the HE is very good, but exactly how many different PSUs for the SL-1200 have you tested it against? And you certainly haven't heard an SR5. I'll bring one down and you can compare it to the HE, and see what you think. It only takes seconds to swap over between them

If you want a softer sound, slower and rounder, don't buy our HE! The HE tells it like it is!

No doubt, but then in my experience so does the SR5 - it certainly doesn't sound 'slow' or 'round'!

Mat
No one has found a better "top mat" than our Audiophile mat, at least not reported to me. It was especially commissioned by us and now copied by quite a few.

In terms of materials your mat is identical in design to the Herbies one, which has been in production for many years.

The big thing is that it provides damping for the record and it fits inside the rim of the SL-1200 platter. One very good solution shown at the 2010 Whittlebury show, is a copper mat with the audiophile mat on top. The copper giving extra mass and damping the platter and the audiophile damping the record. This works exceptionally well and is a recommended solution.

I agree; this seems like a good solution. It's one I'll be testing out very soon when I obtain a copper mat. I will then compare it to Mike's platter on its own when I receive a specially commissioned version from him in due course, and report the results here on AoS.

Look out for that.....

Then there is the new Japanese Oyaide platter/mat and weight solution. The first thing that strikes you is the extraordinary precision and attention to detail. One wonders where this came from, in an 'out of the blue' way? From nowhere we suddenly have a complete and professional solution. It achieves all the objectives, sounds great and looks a million dollars.

All I can say on that is watch this space!

Platter
It was my idea to produce a solid aluminium platter like the ones used on the German Acoustic Solid turntables. I asked Mike New to make a prototype for testing and suggested that it would take until the end of 2010 to fully evaluate it. Having fully evaluated it, my conclusion is that it is not appropriate for the SL-1200 chassis at all...

Was this before or after, Dave, you discovered you didn't have the wherewithal to design one of your own? Be honest here.

...but against my advice is has been marketed, and already some users have experienced the predicted chassis problems.

I detected no such problems when the Mike New platter was fitted to my own T/T at Martin's, and it doesn't have the base strengthening plate mod done. When I receive my own platter, I will test its use over a significant period of time without the base plate mod and see what happens.

I'm not convinced there is a real problem there, certainly in a sonic sense, as when I was comparing my T/T to Martin's, fitted with the heavy platter, mine didn't sound in any way worse than his, even though the base plate wasn't fitted to my T/T.

But that's a comparison Martin and I can do again later when I have my own MN platter, and if I feel that the base plate offers a significant sonic upgrade then I will have it fitted to my own T/T.

The requirement is to have a medium mass platter that does not ring. It has been said that if you take the audiophile mat off a standard platter it rings; of course it does, that's why you use the mat!

I agree about the medium-mass platter, which is why the one I'm having made by Mike will be significantly lighter, but with still the improved sonic characteristics of his heavy platter design, due to its superior standard of material construction.

Incidentally, the stock platter still rings slightly even with one of your mats on top. It takes the further weight of a thick LP to fully dampen the platter, so in terms of ringing, there is obviously still some room for improvement, which of course is where the use of a copper mat underneath comes in.

However, I suspect (and testing this in due course will tell) that the MN platter I'm having made will still significantly outperform that particular solution.

However if you take the damping ring off a Mike New platter it also rings, but in a quite distressing way, but that's what the damping is for. Mat or ring, who cares?

No way, I've heard it. The Mike New platter doesn't ring anything like as much as the stock Technics platter does without a mat. The former is much heavier and so thus rings at an entirely different frequency!

In my opinion the SL-1200 chassis cannot take a heavy bearing and platter, period.

That's not what you said so vociferously before. You're contradicting what you've written so often in the past when you were in a position to offer a genuine solution through working with Mike. It is also contrary to the results of my own experience. I suggest you revise that statement if you're not to look a little silly.

Hence the best solution is the copper mat with the audiophile mat on top, or just the Oyaide mat which in itself is almost a solid aluminium platter. Either of these solutions gives you a completely ring free platter, higher mass and does not require chassis strengthening plates. And can of course be fitted with confidence by any owner.

When I've fully tested my own (specially commissioned) Mike New platter, which will be significantly lighter and have some other unique design features that at this stage I can't divulge, I will then obtain an Oyaide mat and compare the two solutions and report my findings here. The results of that should be most interesting.

Motor
Timestep were the first to realise that in standard form, without any additional mass, the motor control circuit was designed for DJ use. Hence our Motor Dynamics Mod. A ground breaking World First that showed our to dedication to the SL-1200, no "me too" games here! It was great at the time, but with the new Japanese Oyaide platter, copper mat and heavier platters, the mod is simply not appropriate at all.

I would agree.

Therefore since Martin's had the Motor Dynamics Mod done to his T/T, and now uses a heavier platter, will you reverse it?

Knowing the above, and that he was intending to buy an MN platter, you should've carried out that adjustment when you had his T/T at yours fitting the Dynavector arm........

Arm
For the Denon DL-103 and SPU then only the Jelco 750 and Dynavector is going to work properly, no arguments here! But in my opinion, for all other cartridges the SME 309 or SME V is clearly the best.

What, better than the Dynavector? Otherwise I agree completely with the above. There's no way, however, that an SME 309 is in the same league, sonically, as Martin's Dynavector, no matter what cartridge is used!

It would be a different argument with an SME V, of course, where the playing field would be levelled somewhat.

Our best selling arm is the SME 309, we sell more of these than 'all' other arms put together. This is a no brainer!

The 309 is an excellent arm, but could it also be your best seller because that's the one you push because you get the biggest profit margin on SME tomearms?

We have a Funk FXR here, and can supply them, we will be trying it soon, and initial expectations are favourable.

Great arm - I'm looking forward to testing one myself.

Cartridge
The DL-103 series and SPU's are great for that meaty vintage sound.

"Meaty vintage sound"? Lol! I guess this is entirely subjective, but that's not how I would necessarily describe the sound of my own SPU, through the A23 SUT, using the Jelco 750, in my system or in Martin's...

Martin how would you describe the SPU, now you've heard it at length in your own system?

Final solution
It seems there are two mainstream solutions:-

The Austin Healy 3000 / AC Cobra. DL-103/SPU, Jelco 750/Dynavector arm, very heavy platter, high friction bearing, huge PSU. Without a doubt this type of system seriously rocks, but not my boat.

Well, Dave, you haven't heard the Mike New platter in conjunction with the SR5, nor I suspect how a modern SPU sounds through the purpose-built A23 SPU SUT, so in that respect, your boat hasn't set sail from the harbour!

Conclusion
Of course, we all have different tastes, different budgets and different aspirations, hence I'll build anything for anyone, and you can of course buy any bits from me and do your own thing. That is what is so great about the SL-1200 series, a turntable for everyone............

Indeed, and on that note we agree!

The bit in bold is good to know, too....

I would invite others now, if they wish, to reply to the comments that have been made.

Marco.

[prestonchipfryer]

Hi.

I don't post very often, but am following, with great interest, this ongoing argument about bearings.

Having used both (and still owning both) the Timestep bearing and the Mike New bearing in my Technics SL1200 I say that the Mike New bearing is sonically far superior. I swapped the bearings out a couple of days ago and was dismayed at the loss of focus with the Timestep bearing. On refitting the Mike New bearing there is a noticeable improvement in sound quality. As far as I am concerned it is a no brainer. This is with a SME V arm with a Denon 103r.

May I also add that I am now utterly confused as to which path to take with my Technics. Do I go for the MN platter? or stay as I am?

Regards

John

[MartinT]

Martin how would you describe the SPU, now you've heard it at length in your own system?

We fitted the SPU to my arm and rebalanced everything for the 4g tracking weight. We used Marco's purpose-built A23 SPU SUT into my Whest PS.30R phono preamp and thence the rest of my system.

The sound was simply staggering. HUGE soundstage width and depth, palpable atmosphere in live recordings and vivid presence in every type of music. Interestingly, despite its reputation as a warm lush device, it was tight, dynamic and had very well extended bass. In no way could I reconcile what I was hearing with a spherical stylus as the treble was sweet and extended and there was no hint of end of side distortion.

We were mesmerised and went on to play lots of music that night with this combo. It was certainly the most magnificent vinyl reproduction I have ever heard.

My AT33PTG is pretty good in the Dynavector, but the SPU was made for it. Very special indeed.

See here for a photo:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showp...08&postcount=4

[Mike_New]

Hi John,

Your concern about whether to get one of my platters is exactly what D Cawley is trying to sow. Now that he has found that he can neither understand or reproduce the quality of bearing or platter that I have been able to achieve, he is now hell bent on decrying all who may wish to upgrade their SL1200 with my products or others!!! Paul Hynes, for instance.

At one time he was regarded as the all knowing guru of the SL1200 world, but has now demonstrably shown that the king has no clothes.

The very sad thing about this whole discussion is that I never set out to offer anything more than what I considered to be genuine improvement options to the components currently in use on the SL1200.

In a frantic attempt to justify his utter failure to manufacture either a decent bearing or a platter, he is now demolishing the walls of Rome on which he has stood for so long.

As Marco has pointed out he has repeatedly slagged off my products in particular my bearing for no other reason than that he has failed to produce his own versions and has now desperately tried to justify his failure by claiming that they are now not required!!! And that any attempt to upgrade the SL1200 is an exercise in futility.

As Chris observed, he has not only dug himself into a big hole, he has pulled the rocks in on top of himself!!!!

[prestonchipfryer]

Mike.

Well now I have made my mind up to go with the MN platter. I won't be making any posts as from Wednesday as I am away for a few weeks.

John

[Marco]

Hi John,

Providing you're using either a Paul Hynes SR5-21 or Timestep HE PSU (either of which is essential), that is a smart move, trust me!

Having used both (and still owning both) the Timestep bearing and the Mike New bearing in my Technics SL1200 I say that the Mike New bearing is sonically far superior. I swapped the bearings out a couple of days ago and was dismayed at the loss of focus with the Timestep bearing. On refitting the Mike New bearing there is a noticeable improvement in sound quality.

And others will discover the very same thing when they try it, which is when certain chickens will come home to roost............

Marco.

[Mike_New]

Hi folks,

Now that I've had the chance to re-read the self-indulgent diatribe from Dave Cawley, I must say that I am fascinated by his demonstration of complete ignorance of the fundamental principles of engineering physics.

He states that in hotter countries than the UK my bearing could seize at 45 rpm. (So much heat is generated at this speed!!!!) All those loyal users in Australia, New Zealand and Asia are going to find their platters spinning into outer space as their bearings disintegrate!!!

He obviously has no idea that copper based alloys such as brass and bronze (and many others) have a far greater co-efficient of expansion than steel, especially the chrome/nickel alloy tool steel that my bearing spindle is made from. This implies that at increased temperatures the bearing gap tolerance will increase (just for Dave’s sake, this means that the bearing becomes less stiff, old chap).

When I designed the bearing I discussed the mathematical tolerances with the metrology director of the tool making company who manufacture the spindle and hone the bearing sleeve to match. It was decided that a high quality fit should be targeted at approx 20 –25 deg C. It was assumed that even in the northern climes of Scandinavia (where there are some bearings alive and well, I believe) the turntables would not exactly be used outdoors!!! In the California summer the tolerance fit will be a few millionths of a mm larger, if you are using your SL1200 in a non air-conditioned room.

You had better watch out Pete and Mark and all the others, Dave Cawley will be offering to sell your bearings on Ebay!!!

Dave Cawley has had so many bearings returned to him that he has ‘several’ for sale on Ebay. The truth of the matter is that he was unable to have a bearing manufactured at his price, to the same very high quality of my High Precision Bearing. So now after three months of hollow promises he has decided to slag off my bearing.

However, I do like Dave Cawley’s turn of phrase: ‘evolution is better than revolution’, but does he know the difference??? He must be a reformed man. After all, he was all for revolution when he was selling my bearings.

[Marco]

Hi Martin,

We fitted the SPU to my arm and rebalanced everything for the 4g tracking weight. We used Marco's purpose-built A23 SPU SUT into my Whest PS.30R phono preamp and thence the rest of my system.

The sound was simply staggering. HUGE soundstage width and depth, palpable atmosphere in live recordings and vivid presence in every type of music. Interestingly, despite its reputation as a warm lush device, it was tight, dynamic and had very well extended bass. In no way could I reconcile what I was hearing with a spherical stylus as the treble was sweet and extended and there was no hint of end of side distortion.

We were mesmerised and went on to play lots of music that night with this combo. It was certainly the most magnificent vinyl reproduction I have ever heard.

My AT33PTG is pretty good in the Dynavector, but the SPU was made for it. Very special indeed.

Thanks for that. I think your account represents a rather more accurate version of the reality

Marco.

[Dave Hewitt]

Hi
Can someone explain to me why it is necessary to have power supplies that could be used for welding and bearings better than those in my 1000cc V twin motorbike for playing records,also never heard as much bollocks as bearings seizing at 45 rpm,it beggars belief.In my opinion of course.
Dave.

[Joe]

Hi
Can someone explain to me why it is necessary to have power supplies that could be used for welding and bearings better than those in my 1000cc V twin motorbike for playing records,also never heard as much bollocks as bearings siezing at 45 rpm,it beggars belief.In my opinion of course.
Dave.

I dunno. That's why I use a Roksan; it just plays records!