SL-1200 Platters, bearings, mats and PSU's, cartridges, arms, and more...

[DSJR]

A post by Dave C on his Timestep site..

No poo stirring, but good words of caution I personally think.

"SL-1200 Platters, bearings, mats and PSU's, cartridges, arms, and more: the definitive thread

Since I pioneered the world's first SL-1200 PSU which overcame all the problems of the internal regulator, the mechanical hum and the electrical hum, the SL-1200 world has been spinning on its head! And here is a breakdown of that world so far:-

Bearings
I think everyone agrees the captive oil bath is the best. This is where the oil is retained in a bath rather than the standard open bearing where the oil can be both "flung" out and simply "dribble" away.

Timestep were the first to design a new bearing and just used the original Technics bearing housing but changed both the spindle and the sleeve, and at the same time made the bearing diameter, and hence the bearing surface, twice as big. A ceramic ball and PTFE thrust pad completed the design. The Timestep bearing does not apply any more stress to the turntable, motor or electronics. The oil can be changed easily and very interesting results have been observed in fine tuning the viscosity of the oil depending on the platter, mat and cartridge used. There are no downsides to the Timestep bearing.

The Mike New bearing is a very large, strong and heavy bearing. However we had so many of them returned to us that we were forced to discontinue them. In hotter countries than the UK they could seize at 45rpm. Also there is no way of checking the amount of oil in the bearing, if any. Reports surfaced of the lack of a proper oil seal and the oil simply dribbling away. Finally it has been found by most users, that it is impossible to change the oil. The additional friction of this bearing causes the motor to use twice as much power. I will have several Mike New bearings on eBay soon at a starting price of 99p, no guarantee/warranty given or implied.

Timestep were going to make a new bearing but have decided that evolution is better than revolution, and in reality the original Timestep bearing does the job quite properly, and especially with tuned oil. The Timestep bearing with standard oil takes no more power from the motor than the original bearing.

PSU
The original Timestep PSU was more than man enough for the standard platter. However, bowing to demand, we introduced the HE version with a measured peak output capacity of 60 amps. The HE is a great PSU, but really only necessary when third party modifications are made to the turntable. It is easy to measure the RMS, Peak and transient power consumption of the DD motor. It never ever exceeds 0.8A and is simply not capable of drawing any more. PSU's the size of breeze blocks provide nothing extra apart from "expectation bias" which quite simply means, if you expect it to sound better, then you will perceive that it does sound better. There is no magic about power supplies, except for their ability to provide power and quickly, no SL-1200 PSU so far seen or heard of can deliver as much instantaneous power as the HE. If you want a softer sound, slower and rounder, don't buy our HE! The HE tells it like it is!

Mat
No one has found a better "top mat" than our Audiophile mat, at least not reported to me. It was especially commissioned by us and now copied by quite a few. The big thing is that it provides damping for the record and it fits inside the rim of the SL-1200 platter. One very good solution shown at the 2010 Whittlebury show, is a copper mat with the audiophile mat on top. The copper giving extra mass and damping the platter and the audiophile damping the record. This works exceptionally well and is a recommended solution.

Then there is the new Japanese Oyaide platter/mat and weight solution. The first thing that strikes you is the extraordinary precision and attention to detail. One wonders where this came from, in an 'out of the blue' way? From nowhere we suddenly have a complete and professional solution. It achieves all the objectives, sounds great and looks a million dollars.

Platter
It was my idea to produce a solid aluminium platter like the ones used on the German Acoustic Solid turntables. I asked Mike New to make a prototype for testing and suggested that it would take until the end of 2010 to fully evaluate it. Having fully evaluated it, my conclusion is that it is not appropriate for the SL-1200 chassis at all, but against my advice is has been marketed, and already some users have experienced the predicted chassis problems. A stop-gap solution was to fit a strengthening plate, but fitting this is way beyond most users' ability and is not the real solution.

The requirement is to have a medium mass platter that does not ring. It has been said that if you take the audiophile mat off a standard platter it rings; of course it does, that's why you use the mat! However if you take the damping ring off a Mike New platter it also rings, but in a quite distressing way, but that's what the damping is for. Mat or ring, who cares?

In my opinion the SL-1200 chassis cannot take a heavy bearing and platter, period. Hence the best solution is the copper mat with the audiophile mat on top, or just the Oyaide mat which in itself is almost a solid aluminium platter. Either of these solutions gives you a completely ring free platter, higher mass and does not require chassis strengthening plates. And can of course be fitted with confidence by any owner.

Motor
Timestep were the first to realise that in standard form, without any additional mass, the motor control circuit was designed for DJ use. Hence our Motor Dynamics Mod. A ground breaking World First that showed our to dedication to the SL-1200, no "me too" games here! It was great at the time, but with the new Japanese Oyaide platter, copper mat and heavier platters, the mod is simply not appropriate at all.

Arm
For the Denon DL-103 and SPU then only the Jelco 750 and Dynavector is going to work properly, no arguments here! But in my opinion, for all other cartridges the SME 309 or SME V is clearly the best. Our best selling arm is the SME 309, we sell more of these than 'all' other arms put together. This is a no brainer! We have a Funk FXR here, and can supply them, we will be trying it soon, and initial expectations are favourable.

Cartridge
The DL-103 series and SPU's are great for that meaty vintage sound. We sell more DL-103's than any other UK dealer, we love them. However on my own system for classical, jazz, rock and 80's electro pop, I prefer the Audio Technica AT-OC9/III as demonstrated at the Whittlebury show and declared by many as the best sound of the show. Although I'm leaning towards the Audio Technica AT33EV right now as there is something even more magical about it.

Final solution
It seems there are two mainstream solutions:-

The Austin Healy 3000 / AC Cobra. DL-103/SPU, Jelco 750/Dynavector arm, very heavy platter, high friction bearing, huge PSU. Without a doubt this type of system seriously rocks, but not my boat.

The Mercedes CLS AMG / BMW M6. AT33EV, SME 309, Oyaide platter, Timestep bearing, Timestep HE PSU. This is my preferred solution for classical, jazz, rock and 80's electro pop and is available as a complete turnkey package.

Conclusion
Of course, we all have different tastes, different budgets and different aspirations, hence I'll build anything for anyone, and you can of course buy any bits from me and do your own thing. That is what is so great about the SL-1200 series, a turntable for everyone............

Regards

Dave "

[Marco]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for that. Most interesting...

I will move this to a separate thread of its own in Analogue Art, where I will (when I get a chance after completing Part 2 of my report on my visit to Martin's place) comment on the points Dave has made, many of which I agree with, but there are some observations, based on my own personal experience to the contrary, which I would certainly challenge.

After all, it's all about opinions!

In the meantime, of course, others can comment as they wish. I suspect that Mike New might

Marco.

[MartinT]

Hi Dave, a few queries (I know that you have just reposted this thread so I am not directing these questions directly to you but rather to Dave C):

Also there is no way of checking the amount of oil in the bearing, if any. Reports surfaced of the lack of a proper oil seal and the oil simply dribbling away.

I haven't seen any sign of oil dribbling away. If I can see a meniscus of oil at the top of the bearing, isn't that sufficient sign that the MN bearing is full of oil?

It is easy to measure the RMS, Peak and transient power consumption of the DD motor. It never ever exceeds 0.8A and is simply not capable of drawing any more.

In order to get a handle on this, what is the peak current capability of the standard Timestep PSU?

PSU's the size of breeze blocks provide nothing extra apart from "expectation bias" which quite simply means, if you expect it to sound better, then you will perceive that it does sound better.

This is somewhat disingenuous. Several of us either own or have heard what the Paul Hynes SR5 (I presume this is the PSU you are referring to as a breeze block) can do, with either standard platter, platter+copper mat or MN platter. It is repeatable, i.e. we can hear the downshift when the standard Timestep PSU is returned. I don't think for a minute that we are experiencing 'expectation bias'.

There is also the question of other PSU criteria other than peak current, such as noise output. How do the Timestep, Timestep HE or breeze blocks measure here?

Finally, I have to say for the record that I asked Dave C several times (I have the documented e-mails) for price and availability of a Timestep HE upgrade. I even asked if I could place an order. I got silence and gave up in the end.

No one has found a better "top mat" than our Audiophile mat, at least not reported to me.

No disagreement there, I even bought a slightly larger Herbies mat to better suit the MN platter.

One very good solution shown at the 2010 Whittlebury show, is a copper mat with the audiophile mat on top. The copper giving extra mass and damping the platter and the audiophile damping the record. This works exceptionally well and is a recommended solution.

I ran this solution for a while. It is a good solution and is very easy to install, no disagreement there. However, when I upgraded to the MN platter the result was better tonal neutrality, greater dynamics and better sense of space to the soundstage over the platter+copper solution.

Having fully evaluated it, my conclusion is that it is not appropriate for the SL-1200 chassis at all, but against my advice is has been marketed, and already some users have experienced the predicted chassis problems.

I now have the base plate installed and it is not an easy upgrade, agreed. But what chassis problems have users reported?

Timestep were the first to realise that in standard form, without any additional mass, the motor control circuit was designed for DJ use. Hence our Motor Dynamics Mod. A ground breaking World First that showed our to dedication to the SL-1200, no "me too" games here! It was great at the time, but with the new Japanese Oyaide platter, copper mat and heavier platters, the mod is simply not appropriate at all.

My deck has the motor dynamics mod installed. Please could you tell me in what way it is not appropriate to the MN platter? Would you recommend that I reverse it?

[Marco]

Interesting questions, Martin...

Dave, any views on that before I add my own thoughts later?

One quick point I would make is that the Mike New bearing you fitted to my 1210 has given me no problems whatsoever, and (as you and I heard and agreed at your place), sonically, it gives a significant no-brainer improvement over the stock Technics bearing.

I remember exactly what we heard during that fairly lengthy session chez-toi in Dartmouth, not to mention what I've heard in my own system (and many others) since. Therefore based on that, there are some notable inconsistencies in what you've written over on your forum.....

Also, regarding this:

The Mike New bearing is a very large, strong and heavy bearing. However we had so many of them returned to us that we were forced to discontinue them. In hotter countries than the UK they could seize at 45rpm.

Well they're made in Australia, and it doesn't get much hotter anywhere else, so if that were a genuine problem I'm sure the kangaroos and koalas would've told us!!

More seriously, it will be interesting to hear Mike's view on this situation when he no doubt comments later.

Marco.

[cuddles]

I wonder if this means that plans for the plinth modifications has been shelved?

[chris@panteg]

It looks that way ' also it appears Dave will not be bringing his uprated bearing and platter to market ? or i am i mistaken.

I always felt it might be a step too far ' if you factor in the extra cost and the possible new plinth ? i have to say i personally would go for a well sorted SP10 mk2 .

[chris@panteg]

But and i need to add this ' i aplaud Martin for going this extra mile as it were.

Only a genuine passion for music and vinyl replay.

[Mike_New]

Hello all of you folks who are following this thread.

Poor old Dave Cawley must be feeling very upset, sad and pissed off to find that he now has egg all over his face!!!!!!

You say no POO stirring DSJR, maybe you have not read the contents very carefully as I have or perhaps have not understood them fully.

I tried to explain to Cawley that making a platter for the SL1200 was not as easy as he thinks and that I needed to liaise with the UK manufacturers as per our agreement in order ‘to make it work’.

“But that is not the way he works” I was informed.

The fitting and very accurate alignment of the pulse generator and the fitting of the center pivot boss were probably beyond the capabilities available and at his disposal.

Furthermore, he has obviously had trouble in having a bearing manufactured to the same very high standards as mine, and has given up. He now uses the unbelievable lame excuse that his own original half-baked effort is now much better after all!

Oh boy, Cawley, you really have shot yourself in the foot this time around. That you should publish the derogatory diatribe about my products on your forum (where I have no right of reply) and now repeated here; is a situation which I find to be very sad and at the same time amusing, in a quaint sort of way.

It is obvious to any intelligent observer, that Dave Cawley has discovered that he does not have the capability to manufacture either my Bearing or Platter to the required precision, and accordingly has embarked on the only course left to people like him.

He has commenced to rubbish my own products.

Which at one time he was selling with unabated enthusiasm!!

This unbelievable situation is fantastic for me, because I am now receiving a rush of enquiries for both my High Precision Bearing and Solid Aluminium Platter. Not to mention the stream of emails offering support. Keep up the good work Cawley!!!!

I am very honored however that Cawley still is using an image of my Platter on his web site. That has got to tell you something!!!!

The very sad thing is that some of those discipled people hanging on his every word, have now been left with nothing to grasp except a sudden about turn in the teachings of the wise one. All of a sudden the super duper bearing and platter he was rocking on about, no longer are real.

For my part, it reminds me of the used car salesman, who, after a hectic marriage feast trying to sell used cars to all the guests, when he got to the honeymoon suite, spent all night sitting on the side of the bed telling his new bride how good it was going to be, but never ever managed it!!!

Regarding my Platters, Cawley states that after evaluating it, his conclusion was that it was “not appropriate for the SL1200 chassis”.

For those interested, I can supply copies of email orders for the first batch of ten platters, complete with formal order number, to be followed by ten more, and his plaudits on my approach to the design!! This order fell through when Cawley declined to meet the conditions of our manufacturing agreement, which it is apparent he had no intension of doing when he signed it!!!

On the subject of bearings, Cawley talks of “tuned oil’ this must surely tell you something about the veracity of his statements and advice!!!!!!!!!!!!

As for the remainder of the diatribe, I am not going to personally reduce myself to the same level as Cawley by pursuing a detailed response to his somewhat libelous comments.

As would be obvious to all, I am now the sole supplier of High Precision Bearings and Platters to those SL1200 enthusiasts who really understand the sonic improvements that they offer, and who genuinely want to upgrade their SL1200s to take advantage of this. To wit, go back and read some of the reports by all the happy Cawley customers (and mine).

I have three bearings left from the last batch of 50 and two platters.

Cawley informed me that he had orders for about ten platters, so I will honor all of these orders if you care to contact me, and of course they will be a lot less expensive than previously quoted.

I will make one observation concerning the statement under the heading <MOTOR>, before we split commercially, I emailed Cawley about his so called “Motor Dynamics mod” His reply was and I quote: “The motor dynamics mod reduces the torque to make it sound more like a LP-12, I'll probably take it off soon!” He then goes on to say and I quote: “the maintaining current not being much more even with a heavy platter.”


He needs to make up his mind. Either the maintaining current is not adversely affected a heavy platter, and in which case the use of such a platter is perfectly acceptable, or, and I quote (Cawley): “In my opinion the SL-1200 chassis cannot take a heavy bearing and platter, period".

So which is it?

The level of contradiction here is surely obvious to all!

For those folks who subscribe to the Timestep forum, if you really believe all the stuff that is stated there, and there are obviously some who do; then good luck to you.

For all those lucky people who are attracted to the offer of Cawley, to put my bearings on Ebay for 99p. I will not help him get his money back by bidding against you. You see he purchased them from me for $400 or Stg280 so he will be making the big loss not me!!!

[chris@panteg]

Hi Mike

You make some very good points there ' and to be honest Dave has dug himself a hole .

One thing is blatantly obvious though Mike and that is the 1200 chassis was never designed to cope with a heavy bearing and platter ! that's what the SP10 is for.

You yourself have stated this and introduced the strengthening plate ' which requires some work and ability to fit.

I still feel that despite how good the 1200 can sound with these amazingly well engineered bearing's platter upgrades you offer ' the more one tweeks this deck the more there seem to be hidden pitfall's .

Dave's half baked bearing does actually work well and is cost effective .

Its just if i was to spend this sort of money ' i would consider an SP10mk2 or if i can find one ' a Voyd .5 like i used before is still in my opinion superior to a modded Techie but at a retail price of £4,000 (when new) it should be of course.

[Mike_New]

Chris,

Your point is well taken, it was never my intension to claim the extreme in regard to the abillities of the SL1200 chassis. What I have genuinely tried to do is to offer the best of both worlds, and to provide a phased upgrade path for those folks who beleive that the Direct Drive system is the way to go.

As has been said on this forum many times, including by Cawley; the SL1200 DD system is by far the superior method of driving a platter in rotary motion, if only it had a better chassis. I have attempted to address this with my upgrades.