Progression?

[Reid Malenfant]

I think we are missing the fact that we belong to a certain generation. I believe an 18 year old today gets exactly the same excitement from his/her mp3 that we got from our turntables when we were younger. That's the way it is. My nephew couldn't give a toss about vinyl. Even the CD is an obselete object for him and he is quite happy listening to his music from his PC.

We may be thinking that they are missing something. To a degree it is true, in the way that our fathers thought we were missing a lot of things.

I was thinking this earlier & talking to a friend about the very same thing...

CDs will be a thing of the past soon as everyone will download MP3 files from itunes & quality will be reduced to the lowest common denominator

Buy CDs now while they are being given away @ car boot sales, they'll increase in value to people that appreciate better quality

[Ali Tait]

Hi Ali,

I agree with you on today's music production in general. I am definitely not taking sides but just being objective from both the technical and artistic point of view.

The use of compressor to the degree of "squashed to hell" is a result of a trend but then again we do not follow it anyway. I'd love to rant on this subject but this is the wrong thread. Some other time.


@Steve,

Agreed. Seems I said it was the only option. My bad.


However, I still disgaree with the claim that we did not progress in design and manufacture. We did. Even the cheapest equipment today has got built in quality compared to its price, which was not possible to achieve say thirty years ago. I am not condoning mp3 here but to get the surround sound from a 29.99 mp3 device in 70s would be unthinkable. Or in 80s it would require a second mortgage to buy it.

I think we are missing the fact that we belong to a certain generation. I believe an 18 year old today gets exactly the same excitement from his/her mp3 that we got from our turntables when we were younger. That's the way it is. My nephew couldn't give a toss about vinyl. Even the CD is an obselete object for him and he is quite happy listening to his music from his PC.

We may be thinking that they are missing something. To a degree it is true, in the way that our fathers thought we were missing a lot of things.

Good stuff,and yes I think you're right as regards the young folk of today.

[Marco]

Good post, Cemal. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that no progress has been made today in the world of audio - that would be ridiculous and completely wrong.

However, I'm just highlighting from experience areas where I don't think much (if any) genuine progress has been made.

Bear in mind, when I talk about genuine progress in audio, I'm referring solely to out-and-out sound quality. I couldn't give a stuff about minaturisation, facilities, convenience or 'gadgetry'.

If a piece of equipment made now doesn't actually sound as good as its predecessor, then for me no real progress has been made, regardless of any other assets said new product may have.

Hi Anthony,

Thanks for posting your views on hard-wiring - that makes perfect sense, and clearly shows the major advantages of not using PCBs in a valve amp

I do realise, though, that you're not 'anti-PCB'. It is simply that there are certain applications where adopting one approach or the other is beneficial.

Out of interest, what thickness of (solid copper?) wire did you use for the point-to-point wiring inside the copper amp?

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

Good post, Cemal. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that no progress has been made today in the world of audio - that would be silly and completely wrong.

However, I'm just highlighting from experience areas where I don't think much (if any) genuine progress has been made.

Bear in mind, when I talk about genuine progress in audio, I'm referring solely to out-and-out sound quality. I couldn't give a stuff about minaturisation, facilities or convenience.

If a piece of equipment made now doesn't actually sound as good as its predecessor, then for me no real progress has been made, regardless of any other assets said new product may have.

Hi Anthony,

Thanks for posting your views on hard-wiring - that makes perfect sense, and clearly shows the major advantages of not using PCBs in a valve amp

I do realise that you're not 'anti-PCB' - there are simply the right times and places to adopt both approaches.

exactly!

Out of interest, what thickness of (solid copper?) wire did you use for the point-to-point wiring inside the copper amp?

2mm.
Marco.

anthony,TD...

[Marco]

2mm - am I right in thinking that's a bit thicker than the norm, and it's solid copper, right?

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

2mm - am I right in thinking that's a bit thicker than the norm, and it's solid copper, right?

Marco.

hi marco,
yes quite substancial, it has to be due to there being no turrent boards etc for extra support.
from memory both earth and HT wiring in your amp is all solid core 2mm, with the inclusion of the HT wiring having red insulation!
anthony,TD...

[Marco]

Lol - may as well be thorough, eh?

Marco.

[Steve Eddy]

as for us "liking distortion" that is only partly true, 2nd order or even harmonics yes, our ears actualy produce it, as for 3rd and higher orders ie, 5th 7th 9th etc, even small amounts are objectionable, that is why for eg we can tolerate badly designed single ended triode amplifiers producing sometimes in excess of 10%[low order] distortion and forgive them for it for the benefits they bring in musicality...

It's really less a matter of even order versus odd order as it is a matter of high order versus low order.

Low order distortion is less objectionable than high order distortion due to masking (see "critical bands"). Higher order distortion isn't masked so well and as a consequence is more audible,

However beyond simple audibility, it can still take a fair amount before it becomes objectionable. This is because higher order harmonics are not inherently objectionable.

Consider that a single note from even the most beautiful sounding musical instrument is ultimately just a highly distorted sinewave with a rich mixture of even and odd order harmonics. This is what forms the basis of additive synthesis (of which Wendy Carlos is perhaps the most famous practitioner) where you start out with a pure sinewave for the fundamental and then add other sinewaves at the harmonic frequencies in varying amounts to effectively reconstruct the sound of a real instrument.

se

[Steve Eddy]

Agreed. Seems I said it was the only option. My bad.

No worries. We're on the same page now.

However, I still disgaree with the claim that we did not progress in design and manufacture. We did. Even the cheapest equipment today has got built in quality compared to its price, which was not possible to achieve say thirty years ago. I am not condoning mp3 here but to get the surround sound from a 29.99 mp3 device in 70s would be unthinkable. Or in 80s it would require a second mortgage to buy it.

Sure, we're better able to build things very small and cheaply and still have them perform reasonably well due in large part to advances in photolithography and cheap labor in China.

But it seemed to me that John, in his original post, was trying to get at something a little more fundamental than that.

I took him to be asking whether or not modern equipment necessarily gives us all that much more, in terms of the actual listening experience (and setting aside such things as smallness, cheapness and convenience) than equipment did decades ago.

I think we are missing the fact that we belong to a certain generation. I believe an 18 year old today gets exactly the same excitement from his/her mp3 that we got from our turntables when we were younger. That's the way it is.

That's always held true for the majority. That's why there's always been a market for less expensive, poorer performing products. Those who have sought the higher and highest levels of performance have always been a distinct minority.

And not all 18 year olds today get exactly the same excitement from their MP3 players as we did from our turntables when we were younger. Many of them are tossing out their MP3 players in favor of vinyl. In fact, it was this very age group who played a pivotal role in keeping vinyl alive and in many ways are responsible for the current vinyl revival.

We may be thinking that they are missing something. To a degree it is true, in the way that our fathers thought we were missing a lot of things.

And some aren't missing anything from their perspective. But many of them are missing something for the simple reason that many of them don't even get exposed to anything other than what's directed at the mass market.

There will be those 18 year olds who upon experiencing vinyl (or even digital for that matter) on a nice vintage system will absolutely fall in love with it. And they will be the ones who carry our passions into the future.

So don't write them all off so casually.

se

[Alex_UK]

Good post Steve - my last visit to the local record shop I couldn't move for teenage punks digging through my adolescence - how very dare they!