Progression?

[Marco]

Hi Ali,

I completely agree on that point, as it's also my experience with music, on vinyl and CD.

On another point, as a DIY-er, and fellow valve enthusiast, could you do me a favour and extol the virtues of point-to-point wiring in valve designs when done correctly for the benefit of Cemal?

You'll be able to explain the advantages over PCBs in valve equipment better than I can

Right, off for a kip now!

Marco.

[Ali Tait]

Well to be perfectly honest Marco,I don't think there is any difference,as long as the pcb is well designed,and indeed a pcb can allow the signal paths to be shorter than hard wiring.A hard wired amp does make it easier to swap components though.It can make builds cheaper too,as you don't need to pay to have pcb's designed and built.

It's often touted as an improvement over pcb's,but I think it's a marketing tool more than anything else.

[Marco]

Lol - no worries...! That's certainly not my experience, though.

I'm not sure how it can be a marketing tool, as to my knowledge, there aren't very many commercially produced point-to-point wired valve amps around - most use PCBs for convenience.....

You should speak to Glenn Croft about PCBs - a man more divorced from the desire of using 'marketing tools' you're scarcely likely to find! He doesn't make his designs more labour intensive by adopting point-to-point wiring for the sake of it, I can assure you

Also, I don't remember seeing too many of Nick's designs with PCBs in them....

I'll ask Anthony to comment on this, as I know his views on the matter in respect to his valve equipment.

Cheers!

Marco.

[Effem]

Well to be perfectly honest Marco,I don't think there is any difference,as long as the pcb is well designed,and indeed a pcb can allow the signal paths to be shorter than hard wiring.A hard wired amp does make it easier to swap components though.It can make builds cheaper too,as you don't need to pay to have pcb's designed and built.

It's often touted as an improvement over pcb's,but I think it's a marketing tool more than anything else.

I'm going to disagree that populated PCB's are more expensive than point to point wiring. A PCB can be designed and prototyped these days in hours on a PC with all sorts of clever software, all you have to do is design the actual circuit and the software works out all the holes, copper tracking, component legends, in fact the whole shooting match. A bare PCB costs literally pence, components are fractions of a pence mostly and auto insertion machines can fit the components in less than a minute at full tilt, bend and trim legs of components, the a quick trip across the solder bath and job done.

The most expensive part of manufacture - labour - has been kept to a minimum. Point to point wiring cannot be done by any machine and needs human intervention every step of the way from start to finish. The one element that separates the two is heat; PCB's don't like it up 'em and they soon start to slow cook and carbonise until one day a fire extinguisher becomes it's best friend suddenly, while P2P wiring is ALMOST immune from the effects of heat.

[Ali Tait]

The PS in the direct coupled amps Nick is building for me will have pcb's.As for commercial products,economies of scale come into play,making it cheaper for items produced in larger quantities.

I agree hard wiring is better than using cheap,poorly designed pcb's,but IMO well designed good quality boards are just as good.

[Rare Bird]

Solder is a necesary evil, having PCB tracks coated in the stuff is a frightening thought to me.Hard wiring is best to avoid this solder covered track buisness.

PCB are the stuff of mass production. Hard wiring gives you much more room for boutique parts where as cheap components are tiny these days, fitting say large flashy capacitors on modern PCB would look silly if not out of place, thats if you can even get them on.Hardwiring is a sign of high quality although messy layouts & rats nests are nothing better that some amateur DIY job! so it has to be neat to be respected as a quality piece. You can't beat hard wiring..& use the best solder if you can, cheap constitutes thick dull sound.

Just my view as i know nothing

[Ali Tait]

I'm going to disagree that populated PCB's are more expensive than point to point wiring. A PCB can be designed and prototyped these days in hours on a PC with all sorts of clever software, all you have to do is design the actual circuit and the software works out all the holes, copper tracking, component legends, in fact the whole shooting match. A bare PCB costs literally pence, components are fractions of a pence mostly and auto insertion machines can fit the components in less than a minute at full tilt, bend and trim legs of components, the a quick trip across the solder bath and job done.

The most expensive part of manufacture - labour - has been kept to a minimum. Point to point wiring cannot be done by any machine and needs human intervention every step of the way from start to finish. The one element that separates the two is heat; PCB's don't like it up 'em and they soon start to slow cook and carbonise until one day a fire extinguisher becomes it's best friend suddenly, while P2P wiring is ALMOST immune from the effects of heat.

Quite.However,I'm talking about the DIY side of things though.

[Marco]

Solder is a necesary evil, having PCB tracks coated in the stuff is a frightening thought to me.Hard wiring is best to avoid this solder covered track buisness.

PCB are the stuff of mass production. Hard wiring gives you much more room for boutique parts where as cheap components are tiny these days, fitting say large flashy capacitors on modern PCB would look silly if not out of place, thats if you can even get them on.Hardwiring is a sign of high quality although messy layouts & rats nests are nothing better that some amateur DIY job! so it has to be neat to be respected as a qulity piece. You can't beat hard wiring..& use the best solder if you can, cheap constitutes thick dull sound.

Just my view as i know nothing

Oh, you know plenty, mate!

I couldn't agree more. I think some people should listen to the sonic effect caused in a valve circuit of introducing PCB tracks compared to hard-wiring that point in the circuit with the best solder and cable you've got, and then come back and tell us that they can't hear a difference

I shudder to think how different (and not in a good way) my copper amp would sound if it were full of bloody PCBs!!

Ali, are there any PCBs in Nick's 211? I must've missed them if there were.

Marco.

[Reid Malenfant]

I really think this hard wiring thing is much more to do with the potentially lethal voltages that are found inside valve amplifiers. On top of that you also have devices that run stinking hot with no effective way of cooling them

The result of the above is charred areas of PCB or fairly decent thicknesses of wire that can conduct some of that heat away & that have much thicker insulation compared to solder resist.

I ask you, which would be safer?

I don't think it's much to do with sound quality though much more exotic wiring can be used than a PCB track admittedly. It's down to longevity & safety imo.

[Ali Tait]

Not sure Marco,but as I said,pcb's are more trouble and expense for a DIY'er.Nick is using them in my amp for reasons of space.

Andre,agree with what you say,though I still maintain a good quality,well designed pcb will be just as good.