Is PRaT real, or just an artifact of something else?

[DSJR]

I bet the new version NVA speakers have pr@t.

[hifi_dave]

Why is that then....

[Joe]

My view is you don't want your hifi injecting false 'excitement' into your music, any more than you want your hifi sucking all the excitement out of the music. Not all music is toe-tapping.

[SPS]

My view is you don't want your hifi injecting false 'excitement' into your music, any more than you want your hifi sucking all the excitement out of the music. Not all music is toe-tapping.

thats a good point...
my view is though that most speakers do not reproduce any extra excitement.. its more a case of quite alots missing... that is except, in the bass, most box systems start to add colorations that are not in the recordings..

i just bought a pair of 1960's home made semi corner speakers .. the cabs are on the tip now, they were big.. 4'x2'x18".. identical looking except one was bass reflex the other was one based on the original wharedale airdales.. other than that, both identically, and very well made..
the reflex box, even at that size, had the traditional thickened bass sound (not as bad as many modern speakers)
the other was much better.. but still nothing like the clarity of what is possible with open baffles ..

in the main the box is only needed for the bass reproduction, and in doing so it usually adds something of its own thats not on the recording,

They went to the tip after going to see eddie reader last weekend, my baffles sounded very very close to the live sound.. being a sado, i came straight home and listened to a couple of cd's until the early hours , those boxes where no where near

Well I've never heard electrostatics either (I'm coming across as a bit of a hi-fi virgin here aren't I?) but my thinking is that electric bass guitar sound comes from a driver in a box so I want a driver in a box to reproduce it. I don't listen to much acoustic or classical

Some electric guitar speakers are boxed, some are open back ( like open baffles) the boxed is generally recorded/mixed to sound ok.. but it can be on the edge... put that through the wrong system and it can sound quite poor as the reflex box effects are added to original signal

i'm not against boxes, i do agree that box bass often does sound both powerfull and provides very good extension.. but accurate... the bigger boxes start to get close..
my view is it's not until one puts them side by side that one can really judge speakers..
i've been caught out a few times..

[magiccarpetride]

My view is you don't want your hifi injecting false 'excitement' into your music, any more than you want your hifi sucking all the excitement out of the music. Not all music is toe-tapping.

Not sure I understand how do you propose that a hi fi system can inject false 'excitement' into music?

If you go and buy a cheapo boombox, you'll be able to hear anti-PRaT. It will be plainly audible to you how the bass is lagging behind the music, and how not all instruments coincide on the beat. This is due to the fact that those cheapo components tend to be sluggish, inaccurate, delivering scattered sound.

Now play the same tune on a high quality audio system. All of a sudden, the sound tightens up, everything snaps into focus, the bass in particular becomes very agile, and the music is merrily marching on, precisely on the beat. That, my friend, is PRaT!

[Clive]

Now play the same tune on a high quality audio system. All of a sudden, the sound tightens up, everything snaps into focus, the bass in particular becomes very agile, and the music is merrily marching on, precisely on the beat. That, my friend, is PRaT!

But does "real" ie live music sound like this? Prat can be ok sometimes but systems that major on it (ie make all music "time") are not remotely realistic.

[magiccarpetride]

But does "real" ie live music sound like this

If performed well, yes. My children's Christmas concerts at school lacked PRaT, because the kids were not experienced enough to keep pace with the conductor. Some children were lagging behind, some were rushing ahead, while some stayed on the beat. Overall, it sounded terrible.

Same can happen in the real live performances by the pro musicians. If someone in the band is hammered, they'd screw up the PRaT of the band.

One would, however, assume (and hope) that such botched performances would not make it onto the record. So when I plop in a record to play, I'm assuming that the musicians were on the beat when recording it (that's why today many studios have click tracks, to ensure that the buying public can enjoy the PRaT).

Live performance is another story, and yes, the band can lose a lot of coherence while playing live, and that's basically what differentiates men from boys.

[Clive]

If performed well, yes. My children's Christmas concerts at school lacked PRaT, because the kids were not experienced enough to keep pace with the conductor. Some children were lagging behind, some were rushing ahead, while some stayed on the beat. Overall, it sounded terrible.

Same can happen in the real live performances by the pro musicians. If someone in the band is hammered, they'd screw up the PRaT of the band.

One would, however, assume (and hope) that such botched performances would not make it onto the record. So when I plop in a record to play, I'm assuming that the musicians were on the beat when recording it (that's why today many studios have click tracks, to ensure that the buying public can enjoy the PRaT).

Live performance is another story, and yes, the band can lose a lot of coherence while playing live, and that's basically what differentiates men from boys.

Sorry, I don't buy that. There can be an element of Prat in live music but when you hear systems that push Prat to the limit it bears no semblance to reality. Rather like looking through rose tinted specs. Maybe you've not heard the worst of Linn or Naim - this is what I'm referring to,

[magiccarpetride]

Sorry, I don't buy that. There can be an element of Prat in live music but when you hear systems that push Prat to the limit it bears no semblance to reality. Rather like looking through rose tinted specs. Maybe you've not heard the worst of Linn or Naim - this is what I'm referring to,

Gotcha! No, I'm not into such gimmicks. I prefer neutral sounding systems, which I build by hand-matching audio components.

Same as when I'm recording music -- I abhor hyping the sound up. Best to stay as close as possible to the original sound, the way it was miked in the room. True, it often poses challenges when mixing tracks down (the infamous 'mixing mud' syndrome), which is where judicious editing and EQ-ing becomes irreplaceable. But I'm trying to stay as faithful as the original sound as possible.

[AndrewR]

...all instruments coincide on the beat...

A very important way of describing it. It's not about speed. It's not about accentuated frequencies, its not about faking excitement, its about... well... as MagiccCarpertide says. As long as the interplay between musical components and their tunes are being correctly portrayed - then I am more likely to hear the emotional intent of the performance (even in mono).

The ability to time is usually related to the phase linearity across the frequency response.

Andrew