Calling all SL-1200/1210 owners!

[Yomanze]

Hello boys. sorry not been around here for a while, perhaps i should explain why, i have a severe problem with prolapsed discs, and have had a couple removed so far with prolly more to come, this means i am either in too much pain to do anything/ cant stand for long at machines or off my face on codiene if i have to stand/walk for longer than a few minutes, some weeks are better than others and at the moment its not as bad as it can be, hence i was able to do a few C/W`s for those that asked.
So thats cleared that up, i wouldn`t normally explain these things on a forum but would not want anyone to feel i was i was shunning this place or not wanting to help out.
sometimes i just dont have anything interesting to say.

Glad to hear the royal mail were on the ball for once and that you are hearing the improvements made by fitting this C/W, i should have patented the thing

Sad to hear this John, hope things get sorted in the near future for you - wouldn't want to hear of you not being able to work metal! No reason why you couldn't patent it now & market your counterweights a bit more once you're well. At least your turntable's finished

The counterweights have made a huge difference. More "presence", tighter, deeper bass and the soundstage has expanded and become more "solid". It is also much easier to pick out individual instruments & the tonality, decay etc. has become more realistic. Could go on all day, but this is by far the best 'tweaky' upgrade in my setup.

[Peter Stockwell]

Could go on all day, but this is by far the best 'tweaky' upgrade in my setup.

ohh, err Don't think I do Tweaky

[Marco]

Hi Richard,

I hope you don't mind me pinching some stuff you've written on PFM about the Pioneer and the 1210. I think it's important to tackle a few of the points you have raised. Why you don't post this stuff here when there are more knowledgeable people regarding the 1210 than on PFM is anyone's guess!

Anyway, you wrote:

As to the 71 - did a couple of hours' listening through headphones last night, to really get into the nitty-gritty of the sonic differences between the 1210 and the Pioneer. The Pioneer basically makes the Technics sound broken - it's more detailed, warmer, much more tonal colour, well...just more musically convincing. So much more information is getting through.

In the same way as the 1210, this has the same, almost uncanny knack of sounding just right The Pioneer builds on this, sounding bigger, more expansive and generally more musically logical, less processed if you like.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not about to dispute what you heard - I'm quite sure I'd have heard the exact same as you if I had been there. However, what I think you should make clear when writing your viewpoint and making comparisons is to stress that what you have is a completely unmodified SL-1210 - it is not something that is performing at its full capacity; in fact in my experience your deck is likely to be achieving no more than about 65-70% of its true potential. I know because I've compared a standard SL-1210 to a fully KAB modified one at length.

I've said before that an unmodified 1210 is good but nothing special and I stand by that. What you get is a superb motor unit, housed in a solid plinth, with a good quality tonearm. However it is quite seriously hampered by the awful internal wiring of the tonearm, the poor quality supplied phono leads and plugs, dire rubber mat, cheapo mains lead, and most importantly, the existing internal power supply is nothing special (in its standard form).

All these weaknesses are completely eradicated with the KAB mods, particularly when adding the PS-1200 regulated PSU which not only eliminates an electromagnetic field from sensitive source control circuitry but provides a cleaner supply to the motor with greater 'headroom' resulting in more accurate rotational speed stability, which trust me, impacts hugely on the deck's performance and its handling of music. Fluid damping and rewiring of the tonearm also eliminate the presentational weaknesses you're currently hearing with your stock 1210.

Let's look at a couple of important points about the KAB mods which haven't really been mentioned much so far. Going back to the PS-1200 PSU, not only is it fundamental to the deck's performance (as are all PSUs in every piece of hi-fi equipment) but crucially it allows the use of a decent mains lead (instead of the captive piece of crap supplied with the stock 1210) as the PS-1200 has an IEC socket at the back of the unit. Therefore for anyone who's heard the huge differences good quality mains leads make this effect also manifests itself (to quite a staggering degree when the right cable is implemented) and used to power the PS-1200. I use a Transparent Reference mains cable for the purpose and it makes a significant difference to the deck's performance. Other top quality mains leads will have a similar effect. This fact should not be underestimated.

Secondly, along similar lines, when the arm is rewired you can have it terminated in a high quality phono junction box which, as with the PSU, allows the use of top-notch cables (interconnects) of your choice to maximise the integrity of the source signal. This is absolutely crucial as no information lost at this stage can be recovered further down the chain. The fact is the supplied piss-poor interconnects and plugs on the stock deck are totally strangling that signal and that's if the earlier piss-poor internal tonearm wire has left much of the signal intact in the first place!! The improvement you heard with the headshell leads is only a *tiny* fraction of what's to come when the internal wiring is improved and then high quality interconnects are used. The combined cost of the interconnects and mains lead I use is one and a half times the cost of the deck fully modified!! But hey, I know not everyone is as mad as me… Sounds f*cking amazing though

Anyway, don't take this the wrong way, Richard, I'm not 'having a go' because of the observations you've made, they are perfectly fair, but I think it's important to realise (and for everyone else reading) that what you have is a long way off what a 1210 is capable of when all its 'foibles' have been attended to. Only when you have something like this in your possession will you be in a position to say that you know what an SL-1210 really sounds like and can accurately judge it against other T/Ts. What you have at the moment is a very good deck, and like you say, a bargain at £300. But to enter the realms of the genuinely special and hear the 1210 for the giant-killer that it truly is takes a lot more than replacing a headshell and a few wires

I just felt it was important to keep things in perspective

Oh and as for this from Mr Dunn:

The PL-71 in standard form will completely outclass a KAB modified 1210.

Well he wouldn't know because he's never heard a fully KAB modified 1210!! Doncha just hate people who make meaningless assertions on the basis of no practical experience!

Like I said, I'm up for a proper comparison anytime. I genuinely have no idea what the outcome would be but it sure will be fun to find out

Marco.

[Peter Stockwell]

Some of us never sleep

First of all, Marco, I'm sure your ultra fettled KAB 1210 is a stonking TT. I aspire in that direction myself, so I'm not disputing that.

Richard is making a comparison between unfettled PL-71 and unfettled SL1210. His point, as I see it, is that the Pionneer starts from better performance.

Those mods you've made to your KAB 1210 do add multiples to the orginal price, too! The power chord must be quite pricey, but moving on, have you ever tried a Missing Link Opus-F ?

cheers

[Marco]

Some of us never sleep

Christ, what were you doing up at that time? Are the porn channels in France good then?

Richard is making a comparison between unfettled PL-71 and unfettled SL1210. His point, as I see it, is that the Pionneer starts from better performance.

Absolutely. I totally appreciate that. I merely wanted to reiterate how good the 1210 gets when fully 'fettled' in case Richard had lost sight of this - the performance of the deck when fully modified is in a different league.

Yes, an 'unfettled' PL-71 appears to be better than a stock 1210, but the point I was making is that there is much more scope to improve the 1210 than there is the PL-71, and when you do, the bar is raised by such a significant degree that it renders any previous comparison meaningless.

I think Richard needs to decide which way he wants to go. Does he spend money sending the PL-71's arm to Audio Origami to have rewired or does he do the same with the arm on the 1210 and go a bit further with it to hear what it can really do as I have outlined? Or does he just enjoy the PL-71 for what it is and concentrate on modifying the 1210? Personally, I would go for the last option as it limits the risk of wasted investment should the Pioneer fail at some point and at the same time provides an interesting reference point from which to judge a modified 1210 against a stock PL-71.

I'm just giving Richard as much information as possible to help him make that decision because I would hate him spending money modifying the PL-71 for him to later hear the likes of my fully 'tricked out' KAB 1210 and it outperforming the Pioneer (if that were the case). Or God forbid, the PL-71 going pop and all the money he's spent on it going down the drain...

It's all too easy to let the excitement of a new purchase cloud your better judgement. I'm just trying to give some balance

Those mods you've made to your KAB 1210 do add multiples to the orginal price, too! The power chord must be quite pricey, but moving on, have you ever tried a Missing Link Opus-F ?

The Transparent Reference Powerlink I use is £750. I've not tried Missing Link Opus-F, Peter, but I rate many of the Missing Link products. They're 'no nonsense' designs based on scientific analysis (which is somewhat unusual for a cable manufacturer) and they're well built and reasonably priced for the quality on offer.

Marco.

[Peter Stockwell]

Christ, what were you doing up at that time? Are the porn channels in France good then?

I do have cable TV, I don't watch porn, no really, I don't, well it's just research you see... Sometimes I just can't sleep, all kinds of stuff running through my head. Sometimes, too often, sad old git that I am, it's about hifi

I merely wanted to reiterate how good the 1210 gets when fully 'fettled' ...the performance of the deck when fully modified is in a different league.

You know, I only discovered the meaning of the word fettled this spring, at Denby Pottery ( The missus loves that stuff, I think it's good too), it's about trimming excess and getting everything in order.

the point I was making is that there is much more scope to improve the 1210 than there is the PL-71, and when you do, the bar is raised by such a significant degree that it renders any previous comparison meaningless.

... because I would hate him spending money modifying the PL-71 for him to later hear the likes of my fully 'tricked out' KAB 1210 and it outperforming the Pioneer (if that were the case). Or God forbid, the PL-71 going pop and all the money he's spent on it going down the drain...

There's always the possibility that the PL-71 is that good.

I was using Opus-f on an un XPS'd CDX with excellent results, NO perceivable loss of timing, and lower noise, more "relief" (French word, means detail/contrast). With a hydra and an XPS it still had great audiophile properties but the timing was a tad better with Naim cables.

But I'm looking forward to getting it back into service, it's actually a three tailed opus-F, with the Kab power supply and a yet to be selected phonostage.

As you predicted, LP playing has taken over. Have to force myself to listen to CDs and they sound good, too!

I got a Feickert guage today. I'll start a thread but I need to get some photos out of the camera, first. I used the Baerwald null points and that pushed the cartridge forward 5mm compared with the Technics guage!

[scoobs]

Been on the verge of loosing my rag with analogue a few times of late, but we know it's worth it dont we, for when you finally nail it, it's spellbinding.

Took delivery of this yesterday...



...'kin hell, what a little box of tricks it is too. Not only has it somehow stopped the dirty great mains spikes and resultant pops from the fridge putting me on edge, it's given my 103 a shot of adrenalin straight into the heart. The Auditorium23 step up transformer is a dedicated denon 103 device, Marco very kindly loaned me his a while back, but I was in the middle of a hum problem and cable mess at the time and got nowhere with it really. Anyway at £375 it's seems pricey, but taken in context with the low price of the 103/variants and it's permanence, it's a killer product. I wont go into detail about the performance as it's been done far more eloquently elsewhere, but it has been the final piece of my analogue rig puzzle, and I dont think I can take it much further, so live, liquid and organic is it's contribution.

[Mike]

Nice!... Of course if you'd bought a proper cartridge in the first place....

[Marco]

Hehe... Nice one, Scoobs

And it even comes with a little badge now! That's bound to make all the difference

I *know* exactly what you'll be getting now with your T/T/103 Pro/A23 set-up and I know how fantastic it will sound. When the 103 (especially the Pro) is optimised as such to maximum effect it sounds staggeringly good. The uninitiated who write it off quite simply don't know what they're missing...

The A23 really opens up the top end, doesn't it, and gives oodles of gain, scale, and power way in excess of what is normally heard with a 103 - are you finding that too?

How's the valve preamp doing, btw - are you happy with what that's doing now?

Marco.

[scoobs]

yeah I know, I do everything arse backwards.

Yup this one has a go faster badge. lol
Marco, it's coming together nicely, the 103pro is clean and articulate and just natural and expressive at the top end and in this iteration would quickly wipe the sneer from any 103 skeptics face i'm sure. Deep bass is plain scary frankly, the dogs are spooked by it, and go upstairs.

The amp is great, I was pre-occupied initially with bloody cables and hum problems, and listened through cd only that was poorly situated temporarily (next to the active speaker) with cheapo interconnects but now its settled in and sounding sweeeet.