The Vain Pursuit of Excellence - Discussion.

[Mike]

What the bloody hell has this got ta dee wit ya hoose???

LOL. Nope... Not if a system can handle it in its stride with ease. It's like doing 90 MPH on the motorway in a mini, and the same in a 3-litre BMW - the respective experiences are rather different!

... <dons Geordie accent> Hawa hinny, divvint crack shite!

[Marco]

LOL - you've missed my point, ya wee Geordie jobby

Let's drop it before we go round in circles!

Marco.

[Mike]

Let's not!

[lexi]

There is a saying among tradesmen when speaking of someone who is not the quickest. " I gave him a loan of my hammer and when I got it back I was working more slowly"

I bought a box from Jerry and for the first month although happy with it I had an overwhelming desire to sell it

Cheers Jerry still singing that lil box is

[Barry]

This thread has moved on considerably since my posting.

First of all I ought to explain that in my post the phrase ‘I think I’m there’ was in response to Chris’s (TGW) comment about members ‘being at peace with their systems’, I did not mean to sound smug, suggesting that I have indeed found audio nirvana.

The term nirvana used by Dave is apposite, as it does suggest a goal, though not one of perfection. As Varun has stated nirvana is Sanskrit for ‘extinction’, or liberation through extinction, on which I’ll briefly expand.

In Buddhist doctrine Nirvana is the result of the achievement of enlightenment, allowing one to achieve ‘extinction’ and escape the endless cycle of birth and re-birth. By extension it therefore implies the extinction of all desires, freedom from passion and delusion; since Buddhists believe that pursuit of desires lead to suffering. The term nirvana is thus often misused, as the only attainment of perfection is some sort of perfect beatitude.

To apply this to the Vain Pursuit of Excellence (in audio), would suggest that audio nirvana is to escape the, seemingly endless, cycle of:

Dissatisfaction, Expenditure, Upgrade, Euphoria, Acceptance, Resignation, Doubt, Dissatisfaction,..

A sort of modus circulorum in perpetuum, to which the only solution or escape is to find contentment with your system, and be ‘at peace’ with it.

So do we strive to set up systems we like the sound of, or do we strive for realism? How do we know what is real in studio produced recordings? The only comparison is with live unamplified acoustic instruments or the human voice. Those that never attend concerts will never know, so they may as well build a system whose sound they like and spend time box swapping in pursuit of this goal.

The ‘magic moments’ obtained by listening to music on the radio or an MP3 player is more to do with the listeners’ choice of music rather than the means of reproduction.

I’m not suggesting that one should not follow technical advances in the craft, or refuse to listen to new equipment; however there has to be a considerable, repeatable and consistent improvement noted before a change is made. And if one cannot afford these changes, then remain content with the system as it stands. Definite faults that appear after extended listening ought not to occur if the various items have been carefully auditioned before purchase.

As for the ‘one system fits all’, well I would go along with that. If I want to change from ‘relaxing’ to ‘edge of the seat’ presentation, I will use a different cartridge.

But ultimately, if box swapping is part of the fun and enjoyment of owning a good music reproduction system for some - then why not? Just don’t let it become an obsession.

Regards

[DaveK]

Good Morning Barry,
I for one would like to thank you for your elucidation on Nirvana - as usual with such posts of your's I found it very interesting. This true story may bring a wry smile to your face. When we first moved into our bungalow many years ago it was new and we were only the second people on our part of the estate, the first were our next door neighbours. They had named their property 'Nirvana' as they were both close to retirement and this was to be there place of enjoyment of their final years I assume. I then thought what a nice and appropriate name. Had they then known that the true meaning of Nirvana was 'Extinction' they (and I) might have had second thoughts.
As time passed and they eventually achieved Nirvana, one of their children moved back into the property with their family and the Nirvana nameplate disappeared, never to be seen again. All of them have been wonderful neighbours and we've been very fortunate to have them as such, and they're still there.
Regarding the rest of your post, I agree with you 100% - it's how I would have expressed it, had I the ability - nice one!
Regarding the LP sleeves, I've upped my order to include your requirements but it's all gone quiet - as and when I hear back from him I'll update you further.
Cheers,

[The Grand Wazoo]

First of all I ought to explain that in my post the phrase ‘I think I’m there’ was in response to Chris’s (TGW) comment about members ‘being at peace with their systems’, I did not mean to sound smug, suggesting that I have indeed found audio nirvana.

................A sort of modus circulorum in perpetuum, to which the only solution or escape is to find contentment with your system, and be ‘at peace’ with it.

So do we strive to set up systems we like the sound of, or do we strive for realism? How do we know what is real in studio produced recordings? The only comparison is with live unamplified acoustic instruments or the human voice. Those that never attend concerts will never know, so they may as well build a system whose sound they like and spend time box swapping in pursuit of this goal.

The ‘magic moments’ obtained by listening to music on the radio or an MP3 player is more to do with the listeners’ choice of music rather than the means of reproduction.

I’m not suggesting that one should not follow technical advances in the craft, or refuse to listen to new equipment; however there has to be a considerable, repeatable and consistent improvement noted before a change is made. And if one cannot afford these changes, then remain content with the system as it stands. Definite faults that appear after extended listening ought not to occur if the various items have been carefully auditioned before purchase.

As for the ‘one system fits all’, well I would go along with that. If I want to change from ‘relaxing’ to ‘edge of the seat’ presentation, I will use a different cartridge.

But ultimately, if box swapping is part of the fun and enjoyment of owning a good music reproduction system for some - then why not? Just don’t let it become an obsession.

Regards

Well done Barry, your extremely perceptive description is exactly what I was trying to convey in my distinctly non-erudite manner.

[Alex_UK]

Good Morning Barry,
I for one would like to thank you for your elucidation on Nirvana - as usual with such posts of your's I found it very interesting.

Me too, on both counts - thanks Barry, and for your bungalow anecdote Dave, tee hee!

[Varun]

Great exposition Barry,

I shall leave the meaning of the words from which 'vaan.a' has originated. My main hobby is Rgveda- the most ancient Sanskrit text.

Now in Sanskrit literature- there never is "One meaning for One word". The meaning is always context dependent- so that it will change depending on how it is used.

SO the meaning of all these terms; as per Monnier-Williams' Sanskrit-English dictionary is also:

TO BE ALLAYED; REFRESHED OR EXHILERATED:

OR TO PUT OUT (PAIN OR FIRE); EXTINGUISH (SUFFERING-Fire); THEREBY COOL>REFRESH> DELIGHT:

The Buddhish belief is of LIBERATION; RELEASE; FREEDOM from Bondage- an idea which goes back to Rgveda.

So nothing wrong with what Jerry does- if it helps him allay his day to day rigors and travails. Depends on how you look at it. By the way Barry- using a second cartridge equates with "TWO SYSTEMS" - so TUT TUT

[StanleyB]

So do we strive to set up systems we like the sound of, or do we strive for realism? How do we know what is real in studio produced recordings? The only comparison is with live unamplified acoustic instruments or the human voice. Those that never attend concerts will never know, so they may as well build a system whose sound they like and spend time box swapping in pursuit of this goal.

I would have to disagree with you big time.

What you hear at a concert often bears no resemblance to what you hear in a recording studio. Very few times do the artists hurdle together as they do on stage, are the mics in the same position as on stage, and is the nearest wall as far away as on stage.
On top of that, the recordings in a studio are of a different nature than that experienced by one's ears from a stage performance. The recording engineer in the studio has to battle with signal overload on one end of his VU meter scale, and too low an output for some sounds to be heard at the other end. So he keeps having to adjust the signal levels from the various audio inputs as the music keeps rolling. That doesn't happen on stage.

Trying to recreate a stage performance in one's audio set up from a studio recording performance has nothing to do with Nirvana of the first( and I am not even addressing the complete miss-selling of the written word versus the contextual meaning). They are completely different products, and should be treated as such.

The nearest analogy I can think of is eating home made food, supermarket pre-cooked food, or food from the nearest take away. The ingredients might be the same, but the preparation methods are all different. So the end results look and taste different.
The same goes for life versus recorded music, and no amount of table dressing and dress codes is going to make them sound and taste the same.

Stan