Should we tell the Pope to pop off?

[Joe]

Danger, Will Robinson, Danger!

Surely you mean 'Danger, Will Young, Danger!'

[Steve Toy]

I find the Catholic church's view on celibacy for priests and prohibiting birth control for everyone else pretty abhorrent and downright bloody irresponsible in the 21st Century. I agree that the issue is with the institution itself and not catholics. Churches themselves are not created by God, they are created by men who choose a particular way to worship God.

I'm neutral on this one. I know Roman Catholics who disagree with the Pope re. birth control. I'm a Confirmed Anglican, my wife is a Catholic and her father a practising one. I was married to her in a Catholic church. The priest who performed the ceremony is unique in that he's married with children - he defected to Catholicism having been ordained as an Anglican vicar. They didn't refuse him on account of him not being celibate - they can't come between a man and his wife as it is against the scripture and they aren't going to refuse a new member, especially not a priest.

Most of France is Roman Catholic yet their birth rate is incredibly low. The propaganda only works in the third world where it does the most damage. It's more about expansionism of the Catholic empire than about spreading the word of God. It was thus from the outset.

[Alex_UK]

Here be dragons!

[Steve Toy]

Gentlemen, proceed with caution. Please keep it mind that there are Christians as members of this forum, both of the Catholic variety and Protestant.

I have no major issue with anything said so far, but I can foresee a number of possible/potential problems. So please keep that in mind.

I appreciate your concerns Neil but outside of the sectarian hot-spots of Northern Ireland and Glasgow we should be ok discussing these things. This is not a matter of faith, it is a matter of politics.

[The Grand Wazoo]

I'm really trying hard to come up with the words I need to use without being perceived as being inflammatory............and I'm failing badly. Having typed & retyped this post countless times, I'm still unable to say what I need to say!!

I'll just say this about me then, because I can speak on this subject without fear of conflict:
I was brought up to believe in the Catholic faith. By the time I was 8 years old I came to the conclusion that I had been fed with some fundamental misconceptions but that these had been based upon good intentions. (I know those are not the words an 8 yr old would use, but we're all grown ups here, aren't we?)

[Spectral Morn]

Gentlemen, proceed with caution. Please keep it mind that there are Christians as members of this forum, both of the Catholic variety and Protestant.



I appreciate your concerns Neil but outside of the sectarian hot-spots of Northern Ireland and Glasgow we should be ok discussing these things. This is not a matter of faith, it is a matter of politics.

Those who engage in sectarianism are not imo, either Catholic or Protestant Christians They are Tribal
Catholics or Protestants. Sectarianism is not compatible with being a true Christian.

However the issues in Joe's post are matters of faith, not politics. It is clear (whether we like it or not) that the issues the Pope is issuing a Papal missive about, is part of God's law, which has not been revoked. We can disagree with it if we choose (having been given freedom of choice to do so), but its black and white and not open to re-interpretation. It stands as is. No where in the Old Covenant or New is it changed. Jesus came to fulfill the Law not do away with it.

The issue of celibacy, is man made. It is true that Paul urges celibacy as an ideal for those involved in Gods work, but he states it is a gift that some will have always, some sometimes and some not at all. Therefore it is wrong to force it on those who can't or don't have that gift. The Catholic Church (and everyone bar the Eastern Orthodox Church who allow married priests)was the only Church at one time, which introduced this to protect Church property from the claims of wives and children...after a priest was dead.

I have no problem with Birth Control that does not abort eggs. There are Birth Control methods that sadly don't stop the womans monthly cycle, but prevent eggs from seeding into the womb. Imho only those types that stop the cycle totally are okay. Use of Condoms and all barrier methods are imho okay. In terms of Africa and Aids, the forbidding of condoms is imvho terribly wrong, but not being a Catholic I can't fully understand the objection to condoms. However any decision that condemns people to illness and death is not a good one.

Child abuse and allowing it to go on. Jesus said it best, and I paraphrase slightly" If any harm comes to any of these little ones in my name, or they are caused to stumble in their faith. Better that person, have a millstone hung around his neck and be cast into the deepest part of the ocean...." I would not want to be in their shoes on judgement day. How anyone could allow this to happen is beyond me. On every/any level its wrong. The guys who did it, new about, and did nothing, or covered it up should be de-frocked, ex-communicated and thrown into jail forever imho.

You do not mess with Widows, Children or Jews.

From my own point of view you either are a Christian or your not. Denomination is both a man made curse and as a result of freedom of choice/thought..it also can imho, be a barrier to a true relationship with God.


Regards D S D L

[Steve Toy]

I think Joe's OP was deliberately inflammatory to a degree but he was only letting off a bomb of controversy the way I have recently on a different topic. The discusion so far hasn't turned ugly and I do believe the ensuing debate has been healthy, probing and well within our ethos. Matters of faith themselves are open to discussion provided they remain repectful to people's beliefs and I feel so far that this respect has been maintained throughout.

We can discuss interpretation of scripture - that is healthy and should even serve to consolidate faith where pertinant.

For me it is important to be critical of the hierarchy and politic of any given church and how it impacts on the well-being of human beings in these troubled times where resources are ever dwindling and the demand for them is ever increasing.

(having been given freedom of choice to do so)

It is my belief that God himself gave us this freedom and the responsibility to manage the Earth's resources and take responsibilty for the outcome of our actions. God set us free to do what is right according to our consciences. We will be judged both in life and in the after life for the choices we make.

This is unfortunately why God allows people to die in Earthquakes. The allegorical aspect of Genesis even points in this direction.

As for homosexuality, nobody can be responsible for their sexual orientation. It is morally wrong in my view to exercise homophobia under any name including that of religion. Natural law prevails in this respect in that gays cannot procreate through their sexual activity.

All consensual sexual relationships are morally permissible and by legitimising homosexual unions as a society we can at least facilitate gays forming lasting, meaningful relationships recognised by society.

Ethics, morality and legitimacy of our sexual orientation should exist and be accessible to all regardless of faith. To exclude anyone on the grounds of their sexual orientation at any level, even withinn the hierarchy of any given church is to marginalise, stigmatise and to prejudge fellow decent human beings.

[The Grand Wazoo]

After a brisk dog walking session (very brisk because it's bleeding freezing out there tonight) I've gathered a few of the thoughts I was trying and failing to get across.

The above stated view has been extended since I was the tender age of eight to all other organised religions as I learnt a little bit about them - the basics tennets are sound but they belong to no person, people, race or religion - they are no different for any fair minded individual on the planet whether they have religious beliefs or not. They are not connected to religion whether they were written down in the name of religion or not.

My view on the Pope and his latest statements:
Given the previous few paragraphs, I'm surprised anyone could find this man's interpretation of the body of folklore that he happens to believe in is any more surprising than that of anyone else's. If his followers choose to break the law in pursuit of his views, then they presumably will be aware of the consequences.

As far as discussions on religion in general go - I've never met anyone who's been truly convinced by the other view - we've all heard the various arguments about religion & we each still hold our beliefs, whatever they may be. Whatever the belief, as long as we all hold to those fundamental tennets, we can all carry on as we are & no-one is any the worse off. But, and this is a big but, I'd like to think that my non-belief can be respected with as much understanding as I hold for others who are religious. That extends to my feeling (without prejudice to anyone) that religion is nothing more than folklore.

I've said enough.

[Themis]

I will not comment on the Catholic Church positions (or its various Popes) across the history, as many people identify themselves to it. But they have always puzzled me...

[Joe]

Steve has eloquently expressed what are my feelings about the general issues.

I just find it baffling that mere humans can be so certain about God's will, eg about which bits of the OT we should follow and which we should ignore.