Expensive CD players - worth it?

My Marantz CD6006 (UK edition) has been a bit of a dick lately, drawer refusing to open, opening and immediately closing, closing and immediately opening again, and now skipping like mad towards the end of discs.

So I'm going to take it to be repaired (probably Mike Powell at Bolton). I took it off the shelf, and just for the hell of it decided to put in my temperamental Densen Beat B-400 Plus. Which, for the moment, is surprising me by actually working :)

But what also surprised me was that I could hear no difference in sound between this and the Marantz player. The Densen retailed for £1400 in 2003 (about £2800 in today's money), compared to £350 for the Marantz. Don't get me wrong, I'm just glad the bloody thing is working, but surely that 8x the cost should bring some kind of improvement...

So when it comes to CD players, what does your extra outlay really get you?

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Originally Posted by Pigmy Pony

So when it comes to CD players, what does your extra outlay really get you?

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Probably less and less. I'm sure the law of diminishing returns applies massively.

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Originally Posted by walpurgis

Probably less and less. I'm sure the law of diminishing returns applies massively.

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Certainly looks that way with CD players. £200 amp vs. £2k amp, big difference. £200 CDP vs. £2k, not so much. Maybe a quicker opening/closing drawer? My Densen certainly does that. And it does have a visual symmetry, which appeals to me.

If you're plugging them in to your Matsui mini system maybe it's just not resolving enough to hear the difference?

Matsui broken. It blew off the shelf in a strong draught :( But I've since upgraded to Alba. Onwards and upwards :)

Is it one of these? You could sell it to a hipster for a few ponies.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...13fc463d8e.jpg

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Originally Posted by Lawrence001

Is it one of these? You could sell it to a hipster for a few ponies.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...13fc463d8e.jpg

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Hard to tell from that pic - Ours has genuine wood-look formica top plate, not the cheap crap iron-on stuff.

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Originally Posted by Pigmy Pony

My Marantz CD6006 (UK edition) has been a bit of a dick lately, drawer refusing to open, opening and immediately closing, closing and immediately opening again, and now skipping like mad towards the end of discs.

So I'm going to take it to be repaired (probably Mike Powell at Bolton). I took it off the shelf, and just for the hell of it decided to put in my temperamental Densen Beat B-400 Plus. Which, for the moment, is surprising me by actually working :)

But what also surprised me was that I could hear no difference in sound between this and the Marantz player. The Densen retailed for £1400 in 2003 (about £2800 in today's money), compared to £350 for the Marantz. Don't get me wrong, I'm just glad the bloody thing is working, but surely that 8x the cost should bring some kind of improvement...

So when it comes to CD players, what does your extra outlay really get you?

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Since it looks like you've not had a proper answer to this question I'll have a go.

Differences in CD Players:

Frequency response - not all players have a flat frequency response. Mostly the difference is very small, maybe 0.1 to 0.5dB, but across a wide bandwidth this can be audible.

Output voltage - CD Redbook states 2.0 Volts as the standard for single ended output but many players have lower, or higher output voltage. For the same position on the volume dial one player can sound louder (and therefore 'better') than another. Even a very small difference in output level can do that, even though our impression is that the volume level seems to be the same.

What do expensive players offer? Well, what should they offer?

Better build quality, longer lifespan, better ergonomics, better ability to read damaged discs without skipping or drop outs.

Is this always the case? No. Some expensive players use cheap slot loading drives. Sound quality will be fine but other parameters may not be.

Will a cheap player offer the same sound quality as a really expensive one? Bearing in mind the exceptions and variables mentioned above, and generally speaking, yes it will.

Some valid points, but I disagree with your conclusion, based on experience. It doesn't take into consideration the effect of transport mechs, engineering and PSU arrangements, all of which cost money and the best examples of that are generally found on more expensive players.

It's not a given though, especially among the 'badge-fi', posing as hi-end CDPs, which often feature a cheap plastic DVD-ROM, as opposed to a die-cast metal dedicated CD transport, and again experience there tells me there's an audible difference. Also, it depends on what you mean by "really expensive".

There's a reason (indeed there are several) why I use a vintage Sony CDP, as a transport - and it's not just because I like the look of it!;)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Some valid points, but I disagree with your conclusion, based on experience. It doesn't take into consideration the effect of transport mechs, engineering and PSU arrangements, all of which cost money and the best examples of that are generally found on more expensive players.

It's not a given though, especially among the 'badge-fi', posing as hi-end CDPs, which often feature a cheap plastic DVD-ROM, as opposed to a die-cast metal dedicated CD transport, and again experience there tells me there's an audible difference. Also, it depends on what you mean by "really expensive".

There's a reason (indeed there are several) why I use a vintage Sony CDP, as a transport - and it's not just because I like the look of it!;)

Marco.

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I didn't want to write a long essay no-one would read hence why I said 'generally speaking.' There's always exceptions if you look hard enough.

There is quite a few expensive (costing thousands) CD players out there that are just a cheap mech in an adequate case, made in China for ten bob. They'll sound fine but you're not getting anything for that money over an Onkyo or similar that you could get in Richer Sounds for a few hundred.

High end Sony is a whole different ballgame but there is no more high end Sony and I wouldn't recommend getting a vintage one unless you can fix them or know someone who will.

A good EE can fix most stuff, and I know a few; not that I need one, as the Sony has performed faultlessly for the 20 years I've had it, and it was second-hand when I bought it! You can't beat bombproof engineering:)

However, I agree with your basic point. The days of great CDPs (new) are over, and have been for some time.

Marco.

Hmm, a lot more to CD players than I thought... Marco, I take your point about many of the more expensive players having better build quality. Just how much effect that will have on sound quality will no doubt be measurable, but whether that difference is audible will be up to the user. You can tell with your bat's ears, but probably not me.

Of course nothing lasts for ever, so it would be up to the individual user to decide whether the nth degree of sound improvement is worth the potential future pain of expensive parts being scarce or even impossible to find.

I suppose my question should have been: should I get the competent and relatively low cost Marantz player fixed, or get the Densen (which to be fair uses a readily available and inexpensive Sony laser mechanism) repaired.

Sod it, I'll get them both fixed, so I then have a spare player. And maybe with further plays the Densen will reveal why it should cost six times that of the Marantz.

I don't think the Densen, although a good player, is sufficiently special to show up the difference of what's possible. Therefore, I'd choose the player you like the look of the most and use that:)

Marco.

Most CD players, even some of the most expensive will use a fairly basic Philips laser mechanism. If you want the best find a player that uses a laser disc reader designed for CD juke boxes. They were designed to be in use for hours at a time, and hence are robust enough to have long-term reliability.

I forget the type number of the reader, save to say my Levinson ML 390 player uses the same.

After that it is all down to the electronics: how much oversampling is done; the size of the buffer and speed of input/output. That is what makes the biggest difference to the sound quality; and as others have said, the technology has probably already reached optimum quality.


I've just checked - the Levinson ML 390 uses a Philips CD12 IND disc reader, having a substantial die-cast chassis, metal swing arm guide rails and glass (not plastic) lenses. It was designed to be used in CD juke boxes amongst others.

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Originally Posted by Pigmy Pony

Hmm, a lot more to CD players than I thought... Marco, I take your point about many of the more expensive players having better build quality. Just how much effect that will have on sound quality will no doubt be measurable, but whether that difference is audible will be up to the user. You can tell with your bat's ears, but probably not me.

Of course nothing lasts for ever, so it would be up to the individual user to decide whether the nth degree of sound improvement is worth the potential future pain of expensive parts being scarce or even impossible to find.

I suppose my question should have been: should I get the competent and relatively low cost Marantz player fixed, or get the Densen (which to be fair uses a readily available and inexpensive Sony laser mechanism) repaired.

Sod it, I'll get them both fixed, so I then have a spare player. And maybe with further plays the Densen will reveal why it should cost six times that of the Marantz.

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I inhabit very much the mid-fi habitat and find that the few hundred quid I pay for anything can bring large differences in SQ. My CDP of choice at the moment is a mid range, mid 90's Sony ES. It is built like a tank, is a joy to use and, to my ageing ears, sounds lovely.

The very large upside to mid range ES kit of this era is that it uses the cheap, ubiquitous KSS-213B Mech, so is easy to repair should it ever go wrong, and I don't imagine it will. If I were looking for a new CDP now, that is where I would be putting my money.

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Originally Posted by Barry

Most CD players, even some of the most expensive will use a fairly basic Philips laser mechanism. If you want the best find a player that uses a laser disc reader designed for CD juke boxes. They were designed to be in use for hours at a time, and hence are robust enough to have long-term reliability.

I forget the type number of the reader, save to say my Levinson ML 390 player uses the same.

After that it is all down to the electronics: how much oversampling is done; the size of the buffer and speed of input/output. That is what makes the biggest difference to the sound quality; and as others have said, the technology has probably already reached optimum quality.

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PSU arrangements also make a big difference, Barry, with the very best CDPs having dedicated (over-specced) linear ones for different parts of the circuit, reducing noise, and also where the detrimental effects of vibration (a big issue with CDPs) has been addressed.

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

A good EE can fix most stuff, and I know a few; not that I need one, as the Sony has performed faultlessly for the 20 years I've had it, and it was second-hand when I bought it! You can't beat bombproof engineering:)

However, I agree with your basic point. The days of great CDPs (new) are over, and have been for some time.

Marco.

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Is that Martin's basic point? Have you seen or heard his CDT? It's all you could ever need imo, complete with the peace of mind that brand new (hopefully) brings. I have no plans to spend big on a player, but if I was, that's where my money would be going. Because regardless of how good your EE is, he can't fabricate a replacement for an obsolete mechanism from nothing.

No, that's true, but he (or she) can replace like for like components, such as caps and resistors of the same value, which is often what needs replacing. As I said, I've had my Sony now for 20 years, and it continues to perform faultlessly to this day. The 'battleship' CDPs of old tend to last, IME.

No, I haven't heard Martin's CDP, but have no reason to assume it's not excellent. The point I was making, and I think Martin was too, was that hi-end CDPs of today are mostly built from cheap parts, so there's no point in buying one, unless the badge attracts, whereas 20 years ago, you got what you were paying for; where it matters, under the hood!

Marco.

Fair point. On a related note, I've just stuck a CD on, and the bloody Densen is skipping already! So it looks like I will be vinyl-only until I get off my arse and have these players seen to.

I had noticed though, that the familiar-to-me Cranberries CD sounds rather hot in the higher frequencies (and not in a good way), compared to how I remember the Marantz being last week...

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Originally Posted by Pigmy Pony

I suppose my question should have been: should I get the competent and relatively low cost Marantz player fixed, or get the Densen (which to be fair uses a readily available and inexpensive Sony laser mechanism) repaired.

Sod it, I'll get them both fixed, so I then have a spare player. And maybe with further plays the Densen will reveal why it should cost six times that of the Marantz.

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The problem with your Marantz is just the draw playing up? If so it's probably just needing a new belt. Sometimes the cogs fail but you can get replacements for those too now. So should be a cheap fix, just the cost of the belt (about a fiver) if you're up to doing it yourself.

Densen's always been one of those brands to me which charge a lot for something that's nothing special in a fancy case. That's true of pretty much any CD player from the boutique brands.

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Originally Posted by Marco

No, that's true, but he (or she) can replace like for like components, such as caps and resistors of the same value, which is often what needs replacing. As I said, I've had my Sony now for 20 years, and it continues to perform faultlessly to this day. The 'battleship' CDPs of old tend to last, IME.

No, I haven't heard Martin's CDP, but have no reason to assume it's not excellent. The point I was making, and I think Martin was too, was that hi-end CDPs of today are mostly built from cheap parts, so there's no point in buying one, unless the badge attracts, whereas 20 years ago, you got what you were paying for; where it matters, under the hood!

Marco.

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I've got a faulty X505ES here so it can happen they go bad. Like anything they will eventually wear out with use, they just take a lot longer to do it, and the problem with getting one now is you don't know the mileage. And prices are still way too high despite that.

Sure you can find an EE who will work on one but some won't touch CD players. Also you'll have a wait and a substantial bill if it's not at mate's rates.

Plenty of new CD players that will give excellent sound quality, if you want high end looks and build the market for expensive CD transports seems to be expanding. They still don't have the build quality and attention to every detail of the top Sony kit but then nothing ever did. Okay, maybe high end Yamaha and JVC and Accuphase came close too.

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Originally Posted by Macca

The problem with your Marantz is just the draw playing up? If so it's probably just needing a new belt. Sometimes the cogs fail but you can get replacements for those too now. So should be a cheap fix, just the cost of the belt (about a fiver) if you're up to doing it yourself.

Densen's always been one of those brands to me which charge a lot for something that's nothing special in a fancy case. That's true of pretty much any CD player from the boutique brands.

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It's not just the drawer, discs have started skipping towards the end. So that's not a job for me. I expect the repair to cost a few bob, but it will still be cheaper than ditching it and buying a new one.

The Densen is back to behaving itself again, but for how long who knows. I've decided I don't like the sound (now my ears have latched onto it I can't ignore it). Maybe I'll get it fixed then sell it. Or even sell as-is. I saw a non-working one go on Ebay for a couple hundred.

Budget end CD players may benefit from having mainly been developed by big companies to sell in larger numbers than those of the more specialist makes and therefore the cheaper models will probably have had more development and bugs ironed out.

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Originally Posted by Pigmy Pony

It's not just the drawer, discs have started skipping towards the end. So that's not a job for me. I expect the repair to cost a few bob, but it will still be cheaper than ditching it and buying a new one.

The Densen is back to behaving itself again, but for how long who knows. I've decided I don't like the sound (now my ears have latched onto it I can't ignore it). Maybe I'll get it fixed then sell it. Or even sell as-is. I saw a non-working one go on Ebay for a couple hundred.

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Skipping can also be due to a failing belt. People automatically assume that skipping means it's the laser although that's rarely the case. But it could also be any number of other things too.

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Originally Posted by Macca

Sure you can find an EE who will work on one but some won't touch CD players. Also you'll have a wait and a substantial bill if it's not at mate's rates.

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Lol, true, but I only ever do mates rates. If you've been in this game for 30-odd years and not befriended and EE in that time, then summat's wrong!;)

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Plenty of new CD players that will give excellent sound quality...

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Yes, you might think that until you hear a good oldie in comparison...

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Macca

Plenty of new CD players that will give excellent sound quality, if you want high end looks and build the market for expensive CD transports seems to be expanding. They still don't have the build quality and attention to every detail of the top Sony kit but then nothing ever did.

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Here's a nice one for £5k: https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/4444...intage-compact

Expensive, yes, but I'd put it up against almost any modern hi-end CDP you could mention, and expect it to more than hold its own.

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Here's a nice one for £5k: https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/4444...intage-compact

Expensive, yes, but I'd put it up against almost any modern hi-end CDP you could mention, and expect it to more than hold its own.

Marco.

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Yeah I did consider something like that when I was putting together my retirement system but I've owned enough vintage CDPs to be wary about longevity, so I went for brand new on the grounds it has the best chance of lasting for the longest time. It still goes through a 37 year old Sony DAC though!

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Originally Posted by Marco

Here's a nice one for £5k: https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/4444...intage-compact

Expensive, yes, but I'd put it up against almost any modern hi-end CDP you could mention, and expect it to more than hold its own.

Marco.

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:eek: £5k? here's one:

https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=L&ai=...BAgMEAs&adurl=

And here's another one:

https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=L&ai=...BAgMEBQ&adurl=

Still rather buy new. Peace of mind you see. Anyway, I would say when you're at this level, the room plays a bigger part than component changes.

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Originally Posted by Macca

Yeah I did consider something like that when I was putting together my retirement system but I've owned enough vintage CDPs to be wary about longevity, so I went for brand new on the grounds it has the best chance of lasting for the longest time. It still goes through a 37 year old Sony DAC though!

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You gotta keep the side up, mate!:eyebrows:

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Pigmy Pony

:eek: £5k? here's one:

https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=L&ai=...BAgMEAs&adurl=

And here's another one:

https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=L&ai=...BAgMEBQ&adurl=

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Just the first one I found, which does look minty. At least the ones you've linked to are affordable.

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Still rather buy new. Peace of mind you see. Anyway, I would say when you're at this level, the room plays a bigger part than component changes.

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No worries. Piece of mind is important.

The room plays the biggest part regardless of what any component changes can do:)

It's hard making a good sound in a bad room.

Marco.