* Why Technics? *

I really like the Technics SL-1200,1600,1800 (all mkII) turntables (the 1700 has a lighter platter). They seem like an unbeatable TT for the price. I have a question of inquisitiveness, and hope not to offend anyone with what is probably a reoccurring Technics theme, as I'm a new member.

In the USA they are considered fine products for the money, but not all that popular w/ audiophiles, probably because DJ'ers have adopted them as their own. But, in the UK these TTs seem very desirable, and I see a lot of postings on the 1200mkII. Is it because of the PRaT and pitch accuracy that a good DD turntable produces, or are their other reasons?

I have the modest Technics SL-D2 and want to upgrade to a better Technics because that is what my budget will hopefully allow.

Thanx

Leaving the current models aside for now, the Techie direct drives of the 70's were highly though of for their performance i.e. W&F, slowing under load and absolute rumble figures. The thing is, until 1975 or so, their decks fed back badly, howling all over the place if within a couple of metres of the speakers, which themselves were a bit boomy I suspect..

The SL110 and 120 were awful for feedback, but I suspect modern feet and loading the plinth innards would transform them. The mk1 1300/1400 and 1500/150 were similar, but I suspect that sorbothane sheeting on the base to bypass the tiny foot inserts and careful siting would transform them, together with a Herbies mat of the correct type for the deck.

The 1600/1700/1800 series had a sprung sub-chassis/bottom tray. Not like the softly bouncing Thorens/Linn/AR variety, but spring decoupled nonetheless, which vastly improved the performance IMO. The Dynavector 20A and 10X sounded swell in the supplied arms too and one of these with modern mat and headshell would make a great cheap deck. the Timestep can be modified to work with the non quartz motor units too, according to Dave C and torque, load instability and speed accuracy isn't at all a problem, the strobe light on my SL150 going all over the place yet the deck's speed is correct according to my Linn strobe which is battery powered at 300Hz....

So far so good. There was also an SL1350/1450 and 1550 IIRC, but they were short lived and we never saw them as they weren't replaced once the shipment was sold out.

The next series was the true ancestor of the current quartz-locked drive system. The 1300/1400 and 1500mk2 had radically different styling, the strobe now going internal driven by a frequency locked light source. The platters were plain like the SP10 and ours had nice rosewood effect trimming around the plinth bases. The arms had height adjustment too BUT, and it's a huge BUT, the nylon cueing collar which fits round the underside of the arm pillar breaks and cannot be replaced at present I understand. This means that the auto ones will just skate the stylus over the record instead of lifting the arm clear (I think the auto mech can be "switched off" and of course the cueing lever won't work either. If Technics could be a*sed to re-make this part it would be a PITA to fit 'cos of the dismantling needed, but would guarantee a higher resale price for this generation of decks.

By the late 70's, dealers like us were really into the fruitbox and Thorens and Rega at a lower price. The Techie direct drives (with the exception of the SP10/SL1000) and all their competition were regarded as devil's work and all but forgotten in the UK at any rate, much falsehood being thrown against them by ignorant Space-Cadets in Linn shops..

Fortunately, the exploding club market took the SL1200 mk2 to their hearts and we can now enjoy it. The arm has lower mass than earlier ones as far as I can see, but for non-critical DJ use, it's not a problem. Suitably shelled and with a counterweight sleeve sometimes available, the arm can be tweaked (KAB bits too), but the jelco's are very reasonably priced and for an extra £500 I'd go with a 750D, plate and cable and lift the deck totally. You then have all the other things as well.............

Hope this helps.

Above all, that motor is a galactic class piece of engineering. After all our arm mods, bearing upgrades, isolation etc. etc. it's the motor that's left doing its wonderful thing. When we're all finished with our upgrades, that motor will remain as the only original item. Fabulous!

Actually the USA regards the SL-1200 quite highly, read http://www.soundhifi.com/images/Tone%20SL-1200.pdf

Regards

Dave

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Originally Posted by Dave Cawley

Actually the USA regards the SL-1200 quite highly, read http://www.soundhifi.com/images/Tone%20SL-1200.pdf

Regards

Dave

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Let me rephrase it. The Tech 12xx is highly regarded, but many of our audiophiles are too snobby to own it, not esoteric enough looking. I would be happy to own one.

Not true, see my sales ledger!!

Dave

Since 1977 I have owned many different types of turntable all of which have been of the orangebox type of construction. Last year I bought a Technics SL1210 MkII and I'm using it as a standard unit. The first thing that struck me about this turntable was the astonishing amount of subtle detail noticeable. I am using an Ortofon OM30 Super moving magnet into a suitable valve phono stage and the level of detail is truly amazing. On this basis alone, that's 'Why Technics'

The SL1200 Mk 2 is either a love hate thing, it's like the East Coast, West Coast thing with speakers.

People either love them or hate them, there have been so many threads on AK about this and the two different camps are always at odds with each other.

Some regard it as a very "dark" sounding table, the sound is trying to get out but can't.

Once upgraded it is a different thing altogether, like comparing a race car to the original it started off as.

I think you have to balance the cost of upgrading against the end product. If you think that level of performance is good for the cost go for it. If you are a tweaker and have fun doing it go for it.

I would have upgraded mine but came across a very nice table for less than half the price of new which would be a quarter of the cost of upgrading so it was a no brainer.

Now there are those that argue that the upgraded Techie would outperform anything on the market. Maybe so but at what cost, there is a point of diminishing returns. You can put a SME Series IV arm and a Ortofon A90 cart on one if you have that kind of cash lying around.

If you want a table that has rock solid speed, will last a long time, works like clock work and can be upgraded at your own pace it's probably going to be at the top of your list.

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Originally Posted by Haselsh1

Since 1977 I have owned many different types of turntable all of which have been of the orangebox type of construction. Last year I bought a Technics SL1210 MkII and I'm using it as a standard unit. The first thing that struck me about this turntable was the astonishing amount of subtle detail noticeable. I am using an Ortofon OM30 Super moving magnet into a suitable valve phono stage and the level of detail is truly amazing. On this basis alone, that's 'Why Technics'

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I have to balance what I said with the fact that if I had 3k lying around I would very definitely buy a VPI Scoutmaster II and an Ortofon Rohmann cartridge. I don't have 3k and probably will never have 3k so for me, it's an SL1210 MkII.

But would the VPI Scoutmaster actually out-perform the Techie in fidelity? maybe not as much as you think.

So much "advanced" HiFi isn't advanced at all IMO. It's merely "bling-fi" with a hugely over-inflated price tag designed to be a mugs eyeful. the technics 1200 visual design has been with us for around 40 years and you can relate directly back to the 1970 SL 1200. That and the current "Rega" cost of the standard model tends to put audiophools off. Fine by me, as these audiophools bought the LP12 in the 70's because it was the "in" thing to have rather than anything else and they soon moved on the the "Orrible Oracle" (it was in it's very early incarnations) 'cos it was more expensive and looked more flashy.. And so it goes on.

I still think a suitably plinthed SP10 is a fantastic deck and because of the wider arm choice on a large plinth (a 1200 looks dreadful with a hole where the arm should go) I'd be delighted with one of these as an alternative to the amazing NAS Dias, which doesn't appear to have a sound at all.

Dave R, I fully understand what you are saying. I now have a turntable that does eactly what I want with my vinyl. It plays the stuff with no fuss and uncovers amazing amounts of detail when compared to previous turntables. By not buying a VPI Scoutmaster II I have saved myself almost 3k with which I could buy a newer car. Result...!

Hi Dave,

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But would the VPI Scoutmaster actually out-perform the Techie in fidelity?

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I doubt that it would outperform it, or vice versa; more likely they would just be different :)

There's only one way to find out though - has anyone here in the UK got a VPI and fancies a shoot-out with the Techy, chez-moi?

Marco.

I feel a nice Hi-Fi session coming on...:)

Do you know anyone who's got a VPI then, Shaun?

Marco.

Alas, I'm afraid I don't. I do love the look of it though. Very bling...:)
If a session is arranged it would be nice to attend. Bloody long drive though.

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Originally Posted by Light Capture

Let me rephrase it. The Tech 12xx is highly regarded, but many of our audiophiles are too snobby to own it, not esoteric enough looking. I would be happy to own one.

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I think that statement still applies to a greater or lesser degree in the UK. It's just some of the more enlighted who have discovered the potential wonders of the Techie.

Using myself as an example, and someone who BAOS (Before Art Of Sound), concidered myself to be 'into my HiFi', I would not have considered a Techie 1200 series to be a serious HiFi deck, but a well made, robust, reliable and non-fussy one.

It's was actually all those reasons that made me look into getting one originally, as I just wanted something that wasn't a PITA to use.

It was only when I started Googling and came across Dave Cawley's Sound HiFi site by accident that I realised I could apparantely have my cake AND eat it. :)

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Originally Posted by Haselsh1

I have to balance what I said with the fact that if I had 3k lying around I would very definitely buy a VPI Scoutmaster II and an Ortofon Rohmann cartridge. I don't have 3k and probably will never have 3k so for me, it's an SL1210 MkII.

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One of the positives for me is that the Techie is definately 'Stealth HiFi'. i.e. one of those things that manages to fly under the *What's That It Looks Expensive Radar* by not drawing too much attention, while very much delivering the goods sonically.

The other great thing is that it offers a Stairway To Heaven upgrade path like nothing else I can think of, with each step being worthwhile in terms of improvements but also sensible in terms of cost.

My Techie purchase started off as an interest in improving my vinyl replay at low cost as a side-project. Now I find that I have a true high end component capable of competing with my SACD player for attention. So I agree with all those who have upgraded theirs with no apparent ceiling to performance yet seen. It's an ongoing and very interesting project in its own right.

If you have to deal with warped records, I'm not sure that a outer record weight (VPI style) would fit on
a Technics turntable, the platter with the slopping edge might interfere with it , I'm not sure
but maybe some Technics expert will know.

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Originally Posted by markf

If you have to deal with warped records, I'm not sure that a outer record weight (VPI style) would fit on
a Technics turntable, the platter with the slopping edge might interfere with it , I'm not sure
but maybe some Technics expert will know.

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Mark,
this outer rings should fit the SL 1200 with the stock arm
http://www.ttweights.com/rings.html

The 290 gr sure does. The 600 gr needs a mat of 5 or 6 mm, since it interferes with the strobo lamp tower.

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Originally Posted by Marco

I doubt that it would outperform it, or vice versa; more likely they would just be different :)

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I agree. I own both, and this statement is quite accurate IMO.

Of course, my 1210 is modded to the point where my investment in it equals that of my (used) mint Scoutmaster:

• Jelco 750D
• New bearing
• Cu mat (with cork add-ons)
• Custom external power supply (battery)
• Sorbothane feet
• Reduced motor feedback
• Strobes and pitch control disabled

I used a Denon DL304 (great cart) on both. I also tried my 103R on the Jelco.

Result: Difficult to call. If pressed, I'd give a slight edge to the VPI - greater air and slightly more resolution. Technics is easier to use, however.

Opinion: If I add the external VPI power conditioner to the Scoutmaster, it would have a clear advantage. Of course, at $1K USD or so...

Cheers,

I know a couple of people who've gone from SSM (one with the 2 motors & extra flywheel) to an SP10. I don't think either would go back!

They have upgraded it to the Scoutmaster II.

Improved motor, plinth, arm and platter.

The price here in the U.S. is $2,400.00 which equates to 1610.00 GBP, sorry I don't have a pound sign on my keyboard.

Which means to me that people will be selling there originals much cheaper, don't you love upgrade-a-holics?:lol:

Hi Bob,

Welcome to AOS - where are you from, my friend? :)

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I agree. I own both, and this statement is quite accurate IMO.

Of course, my 1210 is modded to the point where my investment in it equals that of my (used) mint Scoutmaster:

• Jelco 750D
• New bearing
• Cu mat (with cork add-ons)
• Custom external power supply (battery)
• Sorbothane feet
• Reduced motor feedback
• Strobes and pitch control disabled

I used a Denon DL304 (great cart) on both. I also tried my 103R on the Jelco.

Result: Difficult to call. If pressed, I'd give a slight edge to the VPI - greater air and slightly more resolution. Technics is easier to use, however.

Opinion: If I add the external VPI power conditioner to the Scoutmaster, it would have a clear advantage. Of course, at $1K USD or so...

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Thanks for your comments. It's interesting to have my opinion (based on what I've heard of both T/Ts) confirmed as accurate by someone who actually owns them both! :cool:

I do rate the VPI - as I've said before, because it's properly engineered, well-thought out and contains high quality components, which is what a good turntable is all about.

However, there is one modification missing on your Technics which is highly significant and could lift its sonic performance ahead of that of the VPI.... The bearing mod ;)

Also, the above presumes that your battery PSU is as good as the likes of the Time Step, which of course I cannot pass any comment on - I'm sure it is though!

Marco.

P.S Could you do me a big favour and pop into the welcome area and introduce yourself to our members? This is standard procedure for new members joining our community. Use the other threads there as a template for what is required.

Cheers!

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Originally Posted by Haselsh1

I have to balance what I said with the fact that if I had 3k lying around I would very definitely buy a VPI Scoutmaster II and an Ortofon Rohmann cartridge. I don't have 3k and probably will never have 3k so for me, it's an SL1210 MkII.

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My dream TT in that price range is the new VPI Classic. I drool uncontrollably every time I think about it.

http://www.vpiindustries.com/table_classic.htm

That's definitely a looker, Mike! :eek:

Marco.

Stunning looking deck ' interesting motor position ' remember the Pink Link mod for the LP12 ?

Hi gang, I'm from Santa Clara, CA - the heart of silicon valley.

I'm glad to be a part of this fine community.

Re the above, the "New bearing" that I list is, in fact, Mike New's bearing. I agree - big improvement. I compared Mike's bearing side-by-side with another popular model. I voted with my wallet.

On the PS, I have tried 3 DIY units and the KAB. To me, the 24v SLA sounds best, by a small margin. I have rigged a sonically-transparent auto-charging solution for the batt's.

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Originally Posted by untangle

Hi gang, I'm from Santa Clara, CA - the heart of silicon valley.

I'm glad to be a part of this fine community.

Re the above, the "New bearing" that I list is, in fact, Mike New's bearing. I agree - big improvement. I compared Mike's bearing side-by-side with another popular model. I voted with my wallet.

On the PS, I have tried 3 DIY units and the KAB. To me, the 24v SLA sounds best, by a small margin. I have rigged a sonically-transparent auto-charging solution for the batt's.

Bob

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Hi Bob,

Your contribution is very welcome.
I presume that you are using a regulator of some sort after the batteries?
Is the 'reduced motor feedback' mod a component change somewhere?

Hi Bob,

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Re the above, the "New bearing" that I list is, in fact, Mike New's bearing. I agree - big improvement. I compared Mike's bearing side-by-side with another popular model. I voted with my wallet.

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Jeez, dunno how I missed that! :doh:

Losing the plot, I guess.... :eyebrows:

Nice one - well you have a fully tricked-out Techy, then!

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On the PS, I have tried 3 DIY units and the KAB. To me, the 24v SLA sounds best, by a small margin. I have rigged a sonically-transparent auto-charging solution for the batt's.

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Got any pics of that - in fact, we'd love to see pics of your whole system in the Gallery section, but some extra detail on the PSU would be good!

Could you arrange to do this when you get a chance? :)

Marco.

Sounds like a bench mark.

A modded Techie is comparable to the Scoutmaster.

It's a testament to the upgradibility of the Technics.

I have always wondered!:)

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Originally Posted by jonners

Hi Bob,

Your contribution is very welcome.
I presume that you are using a regulator of some sort after the batteries?
Is the 'reduced motor feedback' mod a component change somewhere?

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Yep, regulator is used (but may be overkill for this application).

Motor feedback mod is documented elsewhere, I think. I can adjust R and C on mine, which makes for some fun (and learning). Minor impact on sonics, IMO.

Bob

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Originally Posted by Marco

Got any pics of that - in fact, we'd love to see pics of your whole system in the Gallery section, but some extra detail on the PSU would be good!

Could you arrange to do this when you get a chance? :)

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I'll try to put something together soon. At a higher level, I plan to detail all of my recent turntable experiences soon. I just haven't decided when/where/how!

My 'system' is really more of a lab - 5 tables and multiple amps/speakers/etc.

I have compared the 1200 in various stages of mods to: Empire, AR, Rega 25, VPI 19 w/ linear arm, Sugden, and VPI SM Sig. This has taken four months. I have a Lenco in the queue.

But it's been fun!

(Prior to last December, I hadn't played vinyl in 25 years. Since December, I've played nothing but. All part of my grand experiment to determine how much vinyl could get me 'closer to the music'...)

Bob

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Originally Posted by Hypnotoad

Sounds like a bench mark.

A modded Techie is comparable to the Scoutmaster.
:)

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I'd suggest think of it as a 'data point' or 'existence proof' that a modded 1200 *can* produce music at the level of a SM.

I also discovered several (many?) ways to sink $1000 USD or more into the Technics and have the SM blow it out of the water!

Having said that, I tried to make the final test as comparable and fair as possible. And I owned both units and had roughly the same investment in both. So I had no favored outcome.

They are both excellent music-makers IMO.

Bob