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Over the last 20 years speakers have become smaller and smaller to adapt to modern living expectations.
Yet there is something about the scale and dynamics large speakers are capable off that makes muisic sound more realistic
My own view is you need to match speakers to suit your room size So small rooms require smaller speakers but if you want real scale then bigger speakers are the best way to go if you room allows
I am inclined to agree with you 100% ' but not sure if Marco would ' have you seen his Lockwood's and the room they are in :eyebrows: .
Yes I have but they somehow work in his room so maybe room size is over stated
If I can be devils advocate for a minute and try to dilute AVI's Ashley's comments regarding small vs large loudspeakers.....
Big speakers like large Tannoys have an effortlessness about them which few small speakers posess it seems. However, the larger the drive unit and box, the more scope there is for colouration to creep in and there can be problems with dispersion etc if the large bass cone is allowed to go too high in frequency - physical fact I think rather than opinion. WE mustn't also forget the WAF and, in the UK, smaller living rooms with thinner walls. Three way speakers with large bass unit crossong over to a mid driver also have the lower crossover point right in the middle of the vocal region which can be extremely difficult to design away and even more difficult to deal with.
Modern small speakers have never had it so good, the advances in small drive unit technology in the last fifteen years or so have been huge and I dare say Ash is correct when he makes huge claims for his 6.5" bass/mid driver having a very long and controlled "throw" and with very low distortion at high cone excursions..
The fact remains though that a small but capable speaker reminds me of those thrashy little "hot hatches" yuppies used to spin around in (literally in the case of the Peugeot 205 GTI 1.9) compared to, say, a big Jag or Merc or 5 series up B&W, these latter being just as quick to 60mph but so much nicer getting there.
'Scuse the clumsy prose above. I can see a case for top quality small speakers from the likes of Sonus faber, Harbeth and, yes, AVI, but I also love the easy way with music that golden oldies like the IMF's and well fettled Tannoys have (ok even a VERY good pair of 'briks too, in a room they like and preferably EAR 509 driven.....).
Interesting points I do think the WAF factor plays a part in this; maybe a lot more than most would like to admit
I think that perhaps in the past Ashley views had a lot more merit But I have heard quite a few big speakers recently and none of them had any colouration issues, all have been dynamic and clean
I do however think small speakers can create good music but good big ones well we really talking
I like the difference you describe between big cars and small cars I guess for most people a big car is not going to be to practical but on long distant journeys it will be a lot more comfortable
Old Tannoys without Marco's expensive fettling can squawk and screech with the best of them. A better cabinet fixes one thing and a crossover re-think (as Tannoy themselves did in the early eighties) usually sorts out the other, together with either the tulip tweeter wave-guide or a properly made pepperpot (which wasn't always good on the HPD drivers it seems from online photos).
Big bass is one thing. properly controlled bass that rooms don't screw up is another and the extremes get bigger - 'Briks could sound fine in one room and bass-light in another. The big Spendors and Harbeths are designed to work in a properly controlled room and plonking them down in a room with bass problems will make them sound off like a foghorn at certain frequencies - Hamish is finding this with his FB1's at the moment I think....
The above is one reason why small speakers can be so popular, as their lack of bass "power" and "extension" suits often small concrete box style rooms as we have in the UK...
I've always thought that though small speakers are 'safer' and easier to get acceptable results from, a good big 'un, well placed is unbeatable.
AgreeQuote:
Originally Posted by The Grand Wazoo
My listening room is small 3.5m x 3m
I use 15" Augmented bass speakers and manage to have well controlled bass so it is possible to control bass speakers even in a smallish space
For me clean controlled bass is essential I want kick bass drums that kick and clean extended bass notes I want to hear the bass underpin the drums its not easy to achieve this but is possible but i do not have to compromise around room set up
My room is the same size as yours John and I use floorstanders. I get a little bass boom.
Have you done any acoustic treatment?
I have some natural room acoustics that seem to allow for the bass to be well controlled Perhaps one of the reasons why I can get away with it is that I can have my speakers set up with adquate space from back walls
You should separate the room from the speakers. In order to tame the room, use acoustic treatment, not downsized speakers. If you ever want to experience the true scale of music, you need large speakers - probably larger than you'd match to a room. Reference to colouration should be aimed at smaller speakers: of course a small speaker working hard is going to distort more than a large speaker working less hard. In order to move air, you need surface area and cone excursion. Small cones need large movements and that spells distortion and heat dissipation problems.
You can't beat large speakers. If WAF is a big issue, you haven't got the right W!
I think that one just sneaks in as post of the year, Martin! :clap:
I agree with every word. I'll comment more on this topic later, chaps, although it's been done before under a very similar thread title (which I think TGW has already resurrected once)... Check the archives! ;)
Marco.
Great post Martin
See 'From The Grave'Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Post No. 1
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3088
Now also appearing as Post No. 57
Basic question, but a good one :)
There is a high intimacy and innate musicality factor that high quality stand mounts can generate, that all bar the very best large floor standers can not compete with. Due to less cabinet/driver constraints, near field listening positions etc.
However, if you truly wish to be absorbed in music within its entirety of performance then the old adage ‘they ain’t no substitute for cubes' comes into play.
We are fortunate to have to have all options open to us here, and we appreciate both methods equally as well.
so standmounts can be just as good as floorstanders?
Nahh
It might be eaiser to build and get right but a really good large speaker will beat a really good small one
But you can get some good sounds from them
A smaller speaker on a decent stand can sound much better than the same speaker with carcass going down to the floor - Sometimes a floor standing box has a rigid partition inside keeping the speaker working volume the same as the stand mount version. the trouble is, you have a secondary hollow void underneath which adds its own colouration. Just making the box internals doesn't work either unless the driver is optimised for such, as TDL did so well with the delighful RTL2 mk1 (shame about the godawful plastic veneer though).Quote:
Originally Posted by hifinutt
large boxes can add colouration as I've said before, but most british listeners not used to such are usually bowled away by the extra ease and scale such speakers usually have in abundance. Currently, my money (if I had any) would be on either some mid sized Tannoys (gawd, they've worked hard on them despite boxy boxes...) or Harbeth 40.1's, which sound so good in passive form I wonder if the actives really would be a huge improvement, assuming they make such - I don't think they do currently...
IMO nothing beats big drivers and large enclosures. You shouldn't just think about driver size, the enclosure and driver become one system. The problem is that almost all commercial speakers have enclosures that are smaller than optimum. The ones that have the large enclosures tend to be for willy waving and as, as such have too many drivers and crossovers so complex you don't stand a chance as they have too many passive components sucking the life out of the music.
Quote:
A smaller speaker on a decent stand can sound much better than the same speaker with carcass going down to the floor - Sometimes a floor standing box has a rigid partition inside keeping the speaker working volume the same as the stand mount version. the trouble is, you have a secondary hollow void underneath which adds its own colouration.
Wise words indeed!Quote:
The problem is that almost all commercial speakers have enclosures that are smaller than optimum.
The trend to stick a little speaker in a big box was one of the worst things that ever happened to the loudspeaker industry - how to make a reasonably good small speaker sound crap and make more cash while doing so.
Small speakers can be astoundingly good at what they do. However, there are some things they just can't do.
The midrange driver is incredibly important and much underrated too. If a speaker can't do voice accurately, it doesn't matter what else the speaker does well. Good midrange is absolutely paramount and that is why three-ways (in general) get my vote, because that all-important midrange driver is dedicated to its job.
Three ways need the bass to mid crossover to be designed with absolute care, the the phasey mess that often ensues is right in the voice region - 250 - 500Hz. Steep active crossover slopes do this best, although I must give a happy shout to Hatbeth for getting the passive 40.1's about right...
This is where active 3 ways come in to their own imo. With care you can design an active crossover that is a fair compromise to the passive crossover it replaces. Also active crossovers are far easier to get right and higher order crossovers are possible.
Agreed, and large dual-concentrics do a rather good job too, in all the areas you mention - especially when it comes to coherence ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinT
Paul, you're right, actives (done well) can be very good, but the problem is that this approach takes valve amps out of the equation, so what may be gained on one hand is (for me) taken away rather more on the other...
Again, it's all about choosing your compromises or selecting your priorities (whatever way you wish to put it) :)
Marco.
Use electrtostatics or go full range and get rid of the crossover alltogether.Best way forward IMHO.
Strange, I always thought that dual-concentric was not a good solution for the midrange... : too complicated, compared to individual speakers. :scratch:
It seemed to me that the best midrange is the dome ones, not the cone.
And, the midrange purity relies a lot on the filter. Not the amplifier. :)
Yes, Ali, but by doing so you obtain the compromises of electrostatics or OBs (despite their considerable talents in certain areas) - there's no such thing as a free lunch...Quote:
Use electrtostatics or go full range and get rid of the crossover alltogether.Best way forward IMHO.
Those compromises (for me) are too much to live with, just as those of a box speaker are for you :)
There ain't no such thing as the perfect speaker, muchacho!
Marco.
Perhaps in some cases that's true, Dimitri (again one must be careful not to fall into the trap of abolutes), but I can assure you that the midrange on my Tannoy Monitor Golds (along with sheer scale) is one of their major attributes. Like anything else in hi-fi, it's all to do with implementation.Quote:
Strange, I always thought that dual-concentric was not a good solution for the midrange... : too complicated, compared to individual speakers. :scratch:
The Tannoys in Lockwood cabinets are superior in that area to any other 'conventional' speaker I've heard so far. Indeed, they are miles better in that repect to the 3-way Spendor SP100s they replaced - one of the BBC designs for broadcasting/monitoring purposes famed for its midrange neutrality, or indeed any other 3-way speakers I've heard so far :)
Marco.
I have huge duel concentrics as well and they are pretty good, maybe just a bit on the clinical side but upgrading the crossovers should get rid of that
I think the only really major issue I found was just how long they take to fully burn in I read on the Hawthorne site people can still hear improvements after 6 months
Marco -
How so?Quote:
.............actives (done well) can be very good, but the problem is that this approach takes valve amps out of the equation, so what may be gained on one hand is (for me) taken away rather more on the other...
Maybe so,but you get rid of an even bigger problem-the box! No going back for me.I would find it very difficult to live with a box speaker again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Yes agree we have to choose our priotoriesQuote:
Originally Posted by Marco
What I like about OB is how easy they are to build and how much sound per pound you get. My speakers cost £1000 including 2 sub plates great value for what u get
Indeed, my Ushers' Beryllium dome midrange drivers are fantastically detailed and neutral.Quote:
Originally Posted by Themis
Ali,
And so would I with the lack of scale (and bass grunt in comparison to what I’m used to), low sensitivity and loudness capabilities, of electrostatics ;)Quote:
Maybe so,but you get rid of an even bigger problem-the box! No going back for me.I would find it very difficult to live with a box speaker again.
Good Tannoy dual-concentrics in superbly-made cabinets offer a very entertaining slice of the benefits of both approaches, in my experience, as you hear very little of the box and get all the benefits of massive (tightly controlled when driven by a suitably capable amp), extremely time-aligned, coherent, drive units showcasing music in all its glory. If you're coming to Scalford Hall in March, I look forward to demonstrating this to you :)
Marco.
Each to their own.I'm sure the Tannoys are very good,but high spl's are not a priority for me.The statics go more than loud enough.Also,I don't think a cone speaker exists that can match a statics transparency and imaging capabilities.These things are a priority for me.Some do get close though.However,next year will hopefully see the direct-coupled amp completed.This,to mine and other's ears has raised the bar in what is possible from a valve amp.I can't wait!
Ali,
Believable scale and 'musical realism' (read as: truly extended dynamic range and the highest level of resolution possible from a system and loudspeakers within my financial and room constraints) are as important to me as imaging ability (and other recognised traits of electrostatics) is to you.
I don't often listen really loud, but when I choose to do so, I enjoy the ability to create the (near) effect of a live gig (or acoustic musical performance) in my room without things running out of steam, or worse, sparks flying from the partnering equipment or speakers! ;)
That's it in a nutshell, matey!Quote:
Each to their own...
Could you expand on this a little? That sounds very intriguing! :)Quote:
However,next year will hopefully see the direct-coupled amp completed.This,to mine and other's ears has raised the bar in what is possible from a valve amp.I can't wait!
Marco.
Beryllium dome midrange drivers are the best, full point. Unfortunately, they are a bit expensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinT
Hi Chris,
I suspect that valves would be much too microphonic to perform optimally inside the cabinets of actively-driven speakers (although it seems that Ali may have heard something to disprove that theory) :eyebrows:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grand Wazoo
I'm also not aware of any valve-based active speaker designs on the market (certainly any of repute), are you?
Marco.
Active amplification doesn't need to take place inside speaker cabinets - surely you know that as an ex-Naim guy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Get yerself another copper amp (or three!) & get Anthony to wack together a valve crossover for your Tannoys- that would be something to hear wouldn't it?
Marco, I'm sure your amps are truly wonderful, but they're still *only* 30WPC, which means that the Spendors you had were probably clipping the amps on peaks at the levels i expect you listen at. The Tannoys of yours have several db more sensitivity at least, so I suspect your amps are far happier with this and never straining at high levels..Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Dimitri, sorry to disagree with you, but so I've been told by speaker designers I knew, the dome ISN'T the best form to use. In fact, the best tweeter form would be a sort of cone/dome with the coil about half way along the profile I understand..
Mid domes, I think, have a very narrow operating range with severe breakup outside of this "ideal." making the things out of beryllium may improve things in the passband, but the supposed Hi-Q resonances outside of this don't bare thinking about, if the doped fabric ATC mid dome behaviour is anything to go by.
Another huge can of worms and it would take a properly experienced speaker drive unit designer to explain it properly with facts to back it up. My sources for countless conversations were Elac/TDL/Musical technology's Clive Gibson and the legend who is Epos/Mordaunt Short/MA/Audiomaster's Robin Marshall..
I think this potentially could raise the bar even higher if that is possible:lolsign:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grand Wazoo
Yes sure,I've talked about it before.Nick made up a breadboard prototype using 813 valves.This amp drives the electrostatic panels directly from the anodes of the output valves,avoiding the need for either output transformers in the amp,and also step-up transformers in the speakers,as using the right valves will give enough voltage to drive the panels directly.The fact that the prototype was just made up from what he had to hand,and a lot of it was not really suitable,yet the resultant sound was nothing short of amazing,at least in the mids and highs.Bass suffered a little due to using a pair of output transformers from a PP 6550 amp as chokes-the problem being they had far too little iron in them,so were running out of flux when bass notes were called for.I will be having some bespoke chokes made for the amp,probably by Sowter.These will be neither small nor cheap,but will allow the amp to give of it's full potential.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
I understand, and your post deserves an accurate answer that I can't give right now. I promise I will detail my arguments soon. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by DSJR
ATC's Billy Woodman would disagree with me as well, but it would be interesting to discuss what we can about these things ;)
The only problem with active valve setups is cost perhaps, power consumption and loads of heat. otherwise I'd say "Go for it..."
One thing I never did hear was three sets of EAR509's driving active 'Briks. One set did very well with the passive ones and Jimmy's three Krell KSA50's also sounded great used this way with the Naim crossover. I'll go as far as to say that by the time Linn mastered the active crossover slopes late in the day, their amps had gone off big time - IMO... By the time I thought Linn had sorted their amps out, the 'Briks were history!
The bottom line...
Well designed and implemented, the small monitor, particularly the active one with a well-integrated sub, offers its advantages. But there are some things it simply can't do, that more speaker surface can. Personally, I prefer multiple small drivers (5 - 7") over big ones, as the big ones don't play as well into the critical midrange. And even when small, excellent midbass drivers are used, I've yet to hear a passive system that has quite the midrange clarity and imaging precision of the best two way actives. On the other hand, I've yet to hear a two-way/sub system, including actives, that had the sense of breadth in the mids that multiple midbass drivers can deliver. It all comes down to choosing your compromises, especially when it comes to transducers.Quote:
there's no such thing as a free lunch
I realize I've just made a terribly subjectivist argument. I'll leave my credentials at the door...
Tim
:stalks: :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by tfarney
Welcome back Tim!
Hey Marco,Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grand Wazoo
Did you see the above?
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.
Personally speaking this configuration is what I have had in mind for years as my final goal - transistors on bass & treble, valves on midrange & a valve crossover into some big expressive three-ways.
Hi Chris,
Haha - I laughed then as I'm laughing now... Are you gonna treat me and foot the bill, like? :lol:Quote:
Get yerself another copper amp (or three!) & get Anthony to wack together a valve crossover for your Tannoys- that would be something to hear wouldn't it?
Nice idea, and I'm sure that it would be possible with some sort of valve amps (as Anthony is no longer making the Copper amp) but I doubt that I'd go there unless I moved to a house with bigger rooms. Trust me the results I'm getting now are more than 'adequate'! ;)
Go for it, baby! If you do it right and get everything to synergise properly, the results could be pretty spectacular :)Quote:
Personally speaking this configuration is what I have had in mind for years as my final goal - transistors on bass & treble, valves on midrange & a valve crossover into some big expressive three-ways.
Marco.
Marco, the pleasure's all mine shall I write the cheque to you, or direct to Anthony?