Spotted THIS over on VE and wondered if any technically minded bods on here had any comments?
Cheers:cool:
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Spotted THIS over on VE and wondered if any technically minded bods on here had any comments?
Cheers:cool:
Well, Dave Cawley has been hinting strongly about a forthcoming bearing mod from Sound HiFi. Hopefully he will comment here.
Isn't Dave Cawley working on a version of this for the UK contingent?
The original bearing ain't that bad as many are thrashed for thousands of hours with little to no lubrication, but anything to further quieten it from its already impressive levels must be a good thing IMO :)
Watch this space for one that keeps the oil in!!
Dave
We're watching and waiting... :)
Like the birds.....and the sheep.....watching.....waiting....waiting:mental:
Not long now...........
Dave
Yes, Dave we're counting on you :D
Cheers
Joerg
Any chance of a teeny hint on how much it's likely to cost and whether it's going to be a DIY fit?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Cawley
It is a total DIY fit. Taking only 10 minutes at the most, and everything done from the top, so you don't even need to move the turntable. All you need is a Philips screwdriver.
The spindle is a solid single piece of polished 303 Stainless Steel and the bearing is polished PB102 Phosphor Bronze. A ceramic ball and PTFE thrust pad are fitted. The whole assembly is in a captive oil bath.
The retail price including UK VAT will be £175.00 and the A.O.S. price £150 or less if bought as part of a package.
They could be as little as 3 weeks away?
Regards
Dave
Dave
Please can you put my name against one as soon as they are available?
Thanks,
Shuggie
Me too - will order one as soon as available.
I don't know whether just to buy one of Dave's refurbished SP10s instead (which is in the pipeline, anyway) and get the 'bearing mod' thrown in for free! ;)
How much is the bearing mod going to be then?
Marco.
Tidy, looking forward to this mod:)
Do pay attention Marco!;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Cawley
LOL. Missed that. Too many threads/posts to monitor... Hey, it's tough at the top, you know! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Here's my order:smoking::smoking:
Cheers
<---that should have been a :), sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tolstoi
Joerg
I have one in stock, and a few more to come!
Form an orderly queue................
Dave
How mucho is it, daddy-o? :smoking:
Marco.
:doh: ^^^^^ post #10 or 15 Marco! ^^^^^ ;)
Hahahaha... Therein lays the problem of returning to old threads (at the latest post) where you've forgotten what has been discussed further back! :lolsign:
Marco.
Yes please! When do you want an order?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Cawley
One for me please....:)
I think I'll let you chaps be the 'guinea pig', for a change, on this one. Let's hear all about the effects when one of you has done it :)
Marco.
http://www.soundhifi.com/images/bearings.jpg
As predicted, its here now! See http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4475 and http://www.sl-1200-mk2.com/
Dave
Hi Dave,
The photo is fine, but what exactly are we supposed to be looking at? It might be self-explanatory to you, but remember, we're not all techies or engineers! ;)
Why are there three 'thingies' shown in the photograph (what are the differences between all three?), and where exactly have the modifications been carried out? Is the bearing shown at the end the finished article that you're selling? :)
Also, what sonic improvements is one likely to obtain with this modification - have you carried out an A/B comparison between one deck with the standard bearing and another with the modified one? If so, what did you hear? These are precisely the things potential customers will be interested in.
:cool:
Marco.
The link tells all, you did click on it??
Dave
Yes, but this doesn't tell me the thing that I'm most interested in........
What sonic improvements the new bearing brings about! Remember you're dealing with audiophiles/hi-fi enthusiasts here, not engineers ;)Quote:
The standard bearing on the left cannot keep the oil in place. Instead a high viscosity "anti-fling" oil must be used. The centre Timestep bearing has the spindle as a solid single piece of polished 303 Stainless Steel with a much larges base diameter and the bearing is polished PB102 Phosphor Bronze. A ceramic ball and PTFE thrust pad are fitted. The whole assembly is in a captive oil bath so that you can use more suitable thin oil, or any oil of your choice. The right hand bearing is by Mike New which is precision ground and would not be out of place in a £12K turntable. Mikes bearing includes a Silicon nitride ball, carbide pad, brass for housings and a 35mm long top grade sintered bronze bearing.
I presume you've listened and compared? :)
The Mike New bearing is the one I'd be interested in (were I not going to buy an SP10 from you), and £400 is quite a lot of money to shell out on a 'speculative' improvement, from a sonic point of view. It certainly looks nice, though!
Marco.
Oh yes!! I believe we actually have quite a few engineers here!! All bearings were brand new and run in for 10 hours, expect greater things after 30+ hours.
As StanleyB always says "I let my customers do the talking"
But yes have auditioned all three on the same deck in the space of 90 minutes. On my bearing the bass is even more solid in a dry, articulate and faster sort of way, as you may expect; the timing/smearing is slightly improved and long piano notes are even smoother. This all comes about because of the better bearing, and especially because there is about twice the surface area, so the platter only does what it should. Mikes bearing is arguably better than the SP-10 and it shows, it is like mine only even more so, relentless electric music from Kraftwerk has metronome timing and classical music on direct cut Sheffield Labs is sublime, musical notes hold their own as if you were in the front row.
But this is subjective. Engineering is not, and that is why we have quoted specifications and materials. I expect customers to comment soon?
Regards
Dave
Looking at the technical design construction of that new bearing, I would expect it to be at least a few decibels more detailed than the standard cast bearing. I wouldn't mind trying one with an oil filled mat. -85dB SNR or better looks a distinct possibility. That's Red Book CD territory, but without the missing bits.
Which missing bits ? The ones dropped at the remaster ? ;)
In the A to D conversion process. If you listen to an Ampex tape, a vinyl cut, and a CD pressed from it, a complex orchestral piece can sound wildly different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Themis
This bearing could be a Caiman beater:(.
Hmmm... I'm sure Dave all-amplifiers-sound-the-same Clark would think different... :lolsign:
(all this reminds me once more how good tapes sound :()
Mike New bearing now ordered. Can't wait to test it out!
Mr Cawley sir, I cannot get the link to load. Every time I try it, I get the "Internet explorer cannot display the webpage...). What am I doing wrongly?????? :scratch:
Hi Dave,
Well done - this is excellent and the first time I've seen you write that way! I think you should include that information on your website (or at least an edited version of it) :)Quote:
As StanleyB always says "I let my customers do the talking"
But yes have auditioned all three on the same deck in the space of 90 minutes. On my bearing the bass is even more solid in a dry, articulate and faster sort of way, as you may expect; the timing/smearing is slightly improved and long piano notes are even smoother. This all comes about because of the better bearing, and especially because there is about twice the surface area, so the platter only does what it should. Mikes bearing is arguably better than the SP-10 and it shows, it is like mine only even more so, relentless electric music from Kraftwerk has metronome timing and classical music on direct cut Sheffield Labs is sublime, musical notes hold their own as if you were in the front row.
It's important to remember, Dave, that the majority of your target customers are primarily interested in the audible sonic effects you detect with your modifications through any comparisons carried out; the fact that they're subjective doesn't matter. People will still be able to relate to what you're describing, and it's this which piques their interest.
I await Martin's report with great interest! :cool:Quote:
I expect customers to comment soon?
Marco.
Admission time: the GCPH is no longer doing it for me. It's not the sound quality, which is very good. The problem is that it hums and I cannot do anything to reduce a low level but still annoying hum when playing at my normal playback volume. The hum changes with gain and volume control setting and seems intrinsic to the circuit design. No amount of cable swapping and repositioning makes a damned difference to that hum, which now that I'm aware of it I cannot stop from irritating me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
What I want to do, therefore, is sort my phono stage before I receive the new bearing so that I can make the best possible before-and-after comparison. I'm in discussion with Dave C about a possible swap to the Whest PS.30R.
I'll let you know how that goes and will report on the new bearing in due course.
That's interesting. My GCPH is as quiet as a tomb; much better than the Trichord Dino/Dino+ that it replaced.Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinT
I was on the blower to Dave ordering my MN bearing last night as MartinT was posting here about ordering his, looks like anyone considering this had better get their order in quick:smoking:.
Still can't access the 1200-mk2 site. The cached Google one is a week or three out of date :(
It probably isn't worth it, but would the new bearing(s) fit the SL150? My existing one doesn't have the cut-out on the side (the auto variants may well have done back then)
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...s/DSCF0462.jpg
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...s/DSCF0460.jpg
Hi Dave
I have a SL150 here, but can't get to it right now! (it's buried). If you could have a look at the bearing and send an image or two? BTW the link works perfectly here.
Thanks
Dave
It's about time to switch to Firefox :)Quote:
Originally Posted by DSJR
Cheers
Joerg
Hey, Dave, there's a bit of a 'hot' debate regarding bearing matters going on over on Vinyl Engine, eh? :eyebrows:
Btw, we're the most polite and friendly forum, not them! ;)
Marco.
Hi Marco, yes and one member has already been banned!
However, here is what Mike says:-
For the Technics SL1200:-- a Completely New Designed Rigid Close Tolerance Bearing
Design Philosphy:-----
This completely new design of bearing for the SL1200 arose from an evaluation of the shortcomings of the present bearing, and the realization that to extract 100% of the potential sonic quality from the excellent SL1200 Direct Drive Motor then a completely new design of bearing was justified.
This new design based on the considered application of engineering physics, optimizes the allowable design envelope by the use of Computer Aided Design (CAD) and represents the ultimate possible Bearing that can be designed and manufactured to fit within the constraints of the existing SL1200 motor/platter design. This new Bearing has been manufactured to the highest quality possible and I therefore cannot apologize for the price.
At this time I will have a further batch of 25 bearings available by the end of the year, and from there on, Dave Cawley of Sound HiFi and I will be able to offer immediate deliveries.
It is very interesting to observe how many highly perceptive audio devotees who understand what this bearing will do to their listening pleasure have already ordered one. These are people who seem to have a technical understanding of the merits of the design and who do not demand to have proof of “listening to it”!!! The fact is you are paying for a bearing that you “cannot hear” and consequently what you do hear ‘is all of the recorded music’ faithfully reproduced.
a) The Bearing Housing is machined from a solid billet of machining quality brass bar 65mm dia. by 45mm long.
b) The three locating posts on the Bearing Housing have been made as large as practical (allowing for the manufacturing tolerances of the SL1200) so as to provide the largest possible mechanical contact between the housing and the main chassis and also for maximum accuracy of concentricity with the Magnet Rotor and Motor coil assembly to which it attaches.
c) The centre column of the Bearing, which fits into the centre of the printed circuit/motor coil assembly, has been made as large as possible for maximum rigidity.
d) The bearing bush is made of close sintered bronze impregnated with oil and honed to fit each spindle as a set, to a nominal clearance accuracy of 0.008mm (less than 1/2 of a thousandth of an Inch) There is a procedure to honing sintered bearings A course stone is used on the hone in order to keep the pores of the sintered bearing as open to oil as possible.
e) The main shaft/Spindle is 12.8mm in diameter by 39mm long. The 12.8mm diameter was chosen so as to allow for any under tolerances in the nominal 12.7mm (1/2”) bushes.
f) The main shaft, record spindle and the locating taper are made from a single piece of M200 Cr-Mo tool steel hardened and gas Nitrided.
g) The shaft and Taper are precision ground in a NC grinder to an accuracy of 0.002 TIR. The polished surface finish on Diameter is 0.4 Microns.
h) The vertical load of the Platter and associated copper mat (if fitted) is supported by a 8mm dia. Silicon Nitride Ball. This Ball floats in a 6mm deep cavity cylindrical cavity in the end of the shaft. This cavity allows the Ball to locate within the Honed Bearing for absolute maximum rigidity, removing any possible resonance problems. This design also allows for the maximum length of bearing.
i) The Silicon Nitride Ball rests on a 3mm thick solid carbide pad. These components are housed in a large sealed oil well in the bottom of the bearing housing.
j) The record locating Spindle has been made 3mm longer to cater for those people who wish to use the increasingly accepted copper mats with 200Gm vinyl and center clamps.
k) These Bearings are totally made in Australia by myself with the main spindle being supplied by a high precision tool and gauge manufacturer who is NATA approved and a NCS International-Certified-Quality company for Aero Space and Medical Work.
____________________
And I said:-
I have auditioned all three on the same deck in the space of 90 minutes. On my bearing the bass is even more solid in a dry, articulate and faster sort of way, as you may expect; the timing/smearing is slightly improved and long piano notes are even smoother. This all comes about because of the better bearing, and especially because there is about twice the surface area, so the platter only does what it should. Mikes bearing is arguably better than the SP-10 and it shows, it is like mine only even more so, relentless electric music from Kraftwerk has metronome timing and classical music on direct cut Sheffield Labs is sublime, musical notes hold their own as if you were in the front row.
______________
More to follow.............
Regards
Dave
Very nice explanation, thanks Dave. I like the passage of the "paying for a bearing that you cannot hear" : very accurate.
(It seems I accumulate information about my future deck ^^)
Hi Dave,
Sounds excellent, and I suspect is liable to elevate the performance of the Sound Hi-fi-modifed SL-1200/1210 to a level which almost no belt-drive turntable in the world can match.
In your opinion, how does Mike's bearing compare with what's used in an SP10 - and if you reckon it's better, could it be fitted to one?
I'm thinking ahead here for next year!
Marco.
Dave, I'd like your thoughts on this mate... :cool:
Marco.
In your opinion, how does Mike's bearing compare with what's used in an SP10 - and if you reckon it's better, could it be fitted to one?
It is better than a well used SP-10 bearing. No it could not be fitted to a SP-10. With a wife on crutches and a cat convalescing with only one kidney, the whole story will have to wait.
What I can say, is that within 5 years, I with the help of others, will have completely designed the existing plinth, platter, bearing and control electronics on both the SL-1200 and SP-10.
Regards
Dave
Hi Dave,
Thanks for the info. Sorry to press you on this, but it is vital to me deciding what my future plans are.Quote:
It is better than a well used SP-10 bearing. No it could not be fitted to a SP-10.
Ok, I guess that below is really what I need to know. I would very much like your advice.
In your opinion, what should I do: wait for Mike's new bearing to become available, buy it from you and have it fitted to my SL-1210, or buy a fully refurbished SP10 with SP10 Timestep PSU early next year?
What I'm getting at here is this... As the best possible sonic performance is ultimately what matters to me most, what will give me the biggest 'bang for my buck'; the former or the latter option?
Moreover, in your opinion, which has the greater influence on sound quality overall: the superior motor mechanism in the SP10 (together with your larger SP10 Timestep PSU) or fitting Mike's new bearing to an SL-1210 with the standard Time Step?
This is basically what I have to decide on, so your advice here will be invaluable.
Having the facility of fitting two or possible three tonearms to a suitable plinth is partly what makes the SP10 option very tempting, but if in your opinion my deck fitted with Mike's bearing is liable to sound as good, or perhaps even better, depending on the condition of the particular bearing on whatever SP10 I get, then I may think twice about obtaining an SP10.
Give my regards to Jill. I hope she's on her way to a full recovery - and best wishes to your wee cat, too; one of ours in for some treatment today, too :)Quote:
With a wife on crutches and a cat convalescing with only one kidney, the whole story will have to wait.
Marco.