{Moved from Stefano's system pictures thread}
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
'open baffles' marco, thats my idea of out of the box
some nice kit there stefano
and a good website.. i've been there before, for 124 info page
good stuff..
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{Moved from Stefano's system pictures thread}
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
'open baffles' marco, thats my idea of out of the box
some nice kit there stefano
and a good website.. i've been there before, for 124 info page
good stuff..
LOL. I know, mate - Al brought his ones round last night. I was very impressed, as I think he was with the system and the variety of music we played :)
Marco.
Let's have some comments then chaps!
Well, Ali, for the £200 that they cost they are hilariously, laughably, good! In fact, aesthetics aside, they would quite frankly disgrace any sub, say, £3000 commercial speakers I've heard in terms of 'disappearing' and communicating the music minus usual box colorations, and they have all the clarity and detail that you could ever wish for (in fact more so), and also very good bass for OB designs - and they were just simply plonked in front of the Spendors without being in any way ideally positioned.
However, I have to say that I've never heard them sound anywhere near as good at the Owston or Chester fests. Al will comment himself I'm sure, but whether it was the room, the equipment, the set-up thereof, or a combination of all three (and perhaps some other things) to my ears Al's speakers have never 'sung' before anything like what we heard last night, as good as they undoubtedly are with his own kit. Even the cones of the full-range drivers he uses (supposedly) solely to reproduce the midrange and treble frequencies were moving (which they don't normally do in his own system - something which has alerted Al that the frequency response crossover point may need further adjusted) such was the sheer bass energy that was being pumped into the speakers, and those big 15" cones were producing effortless, extended bass, with almost the same visceral impact as the Spendors.
There are areas where the Spendors have more refinement, as one would expect, considering that these are £5.5k loudspeakers, and I could still live with the SP100s, as they are remarkably 'un-boxy' for box speakers (as I'm sure Al will confirm) but at the same time there is a magical openness and clarity with OBs which I would definitely like to explore further with the likes of the Bastanis, which I suspect will be into another league again.
But, as I said, for £200 home-made speakers you quite simply will not get audio performance like it for anything approaching that price commercially. It really does drive the message home just how good D.I.Y audio is when done right. I salute Al for his talent and thank him for his company last night. He arrived at 7pm and didn't leave until midnight. We got through some very varied music in that period and also some home-made Christmas cake! He's most welcome again anytime, as is your good self and Mo :)
Marco.
Because the topic has been raised, my one cent about open-baffles and full-range speakers... I collected over the years some speakers which, cheap or noblest they were, reached an high level of sonic refinement.
Axiom 80s, Siemens KL-306 and 405, Coral's 12" inchers, Zeiss-Ikon 26,5 cm, Green Saba's, Philips 9710's... all the above, in my desert island collection, when I mounted on a large baffle gave to me shivers and great satisfaction... limited but uncompressed dynamics, true to life timbres and coherence...
Horns, their complexities and price-tags, seems simply unnecessary after a careful listening session with these old humble masterpieces.
It's not DIY-ing anymore, but a good-taste exercise and a lesson in sound at home.
As I often say... buy a Philips 9710's pair for cheap and you'll blissfully find best musician's friend.
They're well kept secrets of old-timey good workmanship and materials... and freedom from shops and the like... like becoming actors instead of audience.
sorry stefano, i'm easily confused...read your link to your page and not realised that it was part of the bigger site..Quote:
Originally Posted by twogoodears
never the less, all very interesting,
i a bit of a collector of hi fi equipment.. and am very impressed with your set up, the more vintage kit i hear ( and own) the more i'm sure modern hi fi is missing something.. well.. missing quite alot really..
i have many of the valves you use, and i've a good idea of the sound that you will be achieving..but thats not like hearing it.. its a shame you are so far away..
Marco, what Al has achieved with quite a low budget is quite remarkable in my veiw.. the costs really start to rise for just slight gains..
steve
Hi Steve... so we share same name:doh::lolsign::)
I'm jealous about your PX25's... the best sound I ever listened - cost no object - was coming from a Axiom 80's baffles-pair fed by single 71A based amps... also love RE-604 and AD-1's DIY amps using 70's Partridges irons and paper-in-oil caps... In my system: too bad I find single WE300B/Partridges amps and autoformers x-overs MUCH better than (better on paper) multiamping, these days... and 10Y, 71A, AD-1 and 45 or 350's have finesse BUT not guts enough for my actual system... too bad.
I tried yesterday evening a couple disks using a DIY amp using 71A and, airy and poetic sound, it lacked the authority and cojones of 300B...
A friend recently improved his 211 single transformers-coupled amps using WE212... i.e. - 211 guts and filament using the same material of WE300B... AMAZING blend of good qualities... for BIG bucks price-tag.
... but Koji at EIFL-Japan still have plenty of these super-triodes... 'til they last.
IMHO DIY is the way to go. If you can live without the glitzy name tag and the pat on the back from like minded brand hungry forum goers, you can save yourself a bundle and have a fantastic system to boot!
I love what Open Baffles do to the sound recently heard the Hawthrone Duet and was very impressed
At the weekend I plan to hear some home made open baffles and Vic will lend me his pair
The two things I would like to try next would be maybe the Hypex amps and also open baffles. I have here a pair each of Fostex FE103E and modified FE206E - I am sure there may be a design for an OB that I could try them in, preferably the 103's and a pair of big woofers!Quote:
Originally Posted by John
Owning an embarassing plethora of DIY amps, me and my audio pals sort-of invented a code, nothing special, it's a joke, but... we call our projects with friend name who made or tuned, who gave the haviest foot, better "finger" print to circuit or aesthetic... i.e. - Gianni's transformers-coupled WE300B are leaner than Franz's Partridges/WE300B... Eugenio's RE-604... nice.. well, you got the idea.:smoking:
After this little, cheap, humble, revolutionary "naming", we sort-of gave a new dignity to these painstakingly assembled, tuned and lovingly listened and cherished handicrafts.
As we're all aware, humanity and culture are greatly word-sensitive, and "no-name" is blamed per-se. Try to call your partner: (using a gruntly voice) "hey, woman!"... :lol:
DIY, seems sub-culture, but it's a little better, as it defines an area, at least... but a "Franz's WE300B" sounds (it indeed do!!!) much, MUCH better and makes a world of difference, don't you?
:)
Any piccies of these speakers?
i'm looking for a low cost project to get my juices flowing over the next few months
Gareth,
If you do a search for 'Chesterfest' or 'Owston' and look for the big-ish white, flat, OBs in any of the pics, those are Al's. Otherwise when he gets to this thread he might be able to post some separate pictures :)
Marco.
I think this should be added to the 'Ethos' post :) I would always rather have a well made DIY component than spend a wad trying to achieve the same performance with no effort. And that goes as much for DIY equipment bought second hand as stuff I'd made myself (of which I have very little right now, but hope to improve upon soon :))Quote:
Originally Posted by aquapiranha
I think i'll use that when my wife asks what they'll look like:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Stefano,Quote:
Originally Posted by twogoodears
I'm into british valves, px4, px25 and the 2p are my most used output valves..
mainly because i dont need many watts.. a couple is enough.. i have quite a lot of valves.. but there's some i haven't tried.. mostly US types,
i have a nice old pair of 4300a's, they sound very well, i do need to make an amp for them soon
steve
open baffles.. well i thought a picture of mine might be approprate at this point.. they are quite big but dont look too out of place
the size is the issue with most baffles
I would not get them past every wife i've had...
... but, if failing (something I'm not wishing, indeed...) on this, I nonetheless kindly ask you to drop me a line... my offer pronto won't be late...Quote:
Originally Posted by SPS
Mo' seriously... nice collection.:smoking:
How many wifes have you had, you sex God? :lol:Quote:
I would not get them past every wife i've had...
Marco.
I'm not sure if they're all his own... come on, 'fess up, Steve :)
Sorry for being late into this thread. My PC is working at the speed of a snail on valium.
Firstly. Thanks Marco for the hospitality. Even if you're not into this hifi nonsense, it's worth going for his wife's coffee.:)
A worthwhile evening; hope i didn't overstay my welcome. The fact that i was still there at midnight, suggests i was quite happy to listen to your setup.
I was impressed with everything i heard. Some serious dynamics that i don't quite get at home with my SET. More convincing bass than i'm used to.
A nicely balanced system, i would say.
Your Spendors aren't too shabby either - for a box.:lol:
Good to be introduced to some new artists, though i suspect i some of it will sound less interesting on my stuff.
I'll return the favour soon, with a visit to my place. Though you may have to strap a speaker to each ear, to achieve the same volume levels.
Steve S.
I keep meaning to redesign mine, so they look a bit more appealing. But my one and only wife hasn't complained yet. So i get a bit lazy.
More comment later perhaps.
Hi Marco,
Thanks again for the invite,and yes,will take you up on it sometime.Not sure when,am working 7 days a week at the moment!
Al's system has always sounded excellent to me.Such great sound for so little outlay is a lesson for us all.
i' know what you mean about being lazy.. if i did less posting and reading the net i may have time to make the stuff i've had plannedQuote:
Originally Posted by alb
i've only had two wifes in the past,.. i've lived in 'sin' for the last 6 years, she will moan about the kit on a bad day.. but that's all..
the second divorce was within a couple of months of my large horn speakers joining us in the lounge... good move with hindsight.. not at the time
my view now is.. you only get one life.. and you can spend it pleasing her
or pleasing yourself.. i'm somewhere in between that...
large speakers in the lounge are like those wind turbines are to the countryside,... every one complains beforehand.. but one soon gets used to them.. and.. when think about what they do.. there's benefits..
steve
Is there a diy source available that can show me what to buy, dimensions and specs that y'all OB experts can point me towards? recommended designs obviously.
I'm hoping to do it on the aforementioned £200ish budget and want it as a suck it and see project. Trouble is, like a lot of people i have limited knowledge of how things work. I can cut wood, solder and test which makes my construction of WD amps and speakers seem a bit more clever than it actually is :)
If any of you chaps have tech details available and is willing to spread the love to someone who wants to give OB a try please - feel free to show me how:)
muffinman -
The open baffle forum on Audiocircle is a good place to start. I built my OBs as a result of reading the enormous 'Dark Star' thread there. I'm using Visaton B200 8" drivers plus Celestion 15" to boost the bass. That would be more than your budget, but some people are happy with just the B200s, albeit in largeish baffles.
John
cheers john,
i'll take a long look at that over the w/e and see what sparks my interest.
home made open baffles
it actually quite a complicated subject if you read the net.
to be fair it is .. but there is always more than one way to approach it
I'm of the suck it and see type.. so i'll give you my opinion..
1st.. you need to decide on the drivers,
maplin supply the popular 15" emminence speakers,
look at the response graphs.. then choose a full range for the mids/ top.
again, do some research and look at the responses.. with both drivers look at the decibles you get at 1 watt, you want as straight a line as you can get with both drivers combined ... or better still more bass output
then.. a baffle.. look at mine or al's for a rough guide i would recommend flooring grade chipboard, two layers.. mine are up to 2 layers of 25mm.
you can run them both full range to test.. then you can look at crossovers to pad down the peaks . and peaks from where both speakers work to create peaks..
ensure you try them without the cossover so you can listen to the effect of it
there is long write ups on diy audio full range about baffles..
remember the if you want deep bass you may need 2 15" drivers a side then role the upper bass off (a low pass filter) to get the responce level with the smaller driver.. the same applies if you have a bass speaker with more output than the full ranger its paired with
for cutting i would get b&Q to cut the large panels
a router is best for cutting circles, the adjustable guide usually has a central hole that a bolt can be inserted and used as a pivot
look before you buy..
if you build a known plan, you dont learn as much .. but you may get a better speaker to start with..
most drivers have a box to work against, the air in the box works like the springs on a car.( it also affects the sound)
so where a speaker is rated at say 100 watts.. don't turn them up to 100 watts in on open baffles.. they will not work well if you do .. so always well overspec, you will not need many more than 5-8 watts to go loud i would guess
that is a good basis to learn from..
if you dont want to learn the hard way.. just build one of the designs out there..
hope thats some use
steve
Hi Al,
No worries - I know the feeling!Quote:
Sorry for being late into this thread. My PC is working at the speed of a snail on valium.
You're very welcome, matey. I'll tell Del you liked her frothy little concoction!Quote:
Firstly. Thanks Marco for the hospitality. Even if you're not into this hifi nonsense, it's worth going for his wife's coffee.
Nope not at all - that's the advantage of having an understanding wife and no neighbours! :eyebrows:Quote:
A worthwhile evening; hope i didn't overstay my welcome. The fact that i was still there at midnight, suggests i was quite happy to listen to your setup.
Indeed it was a most worthwhile evening and we must do it again sometime. As you can tell, I was impressed with your cheeky white boxes!
Well that last comment is important simply because as a non-OB user I have no real way of knowing how 'boxy' or otherwise my speakers sound. As you say, they seem pretty good in that respect, which was proven when after listening to the SP100s for a period of time we concluded that your OBs didn't sound too remarkably different in the areas you would expect them to be.Quote:
I was impressed with everything i heard. Some serious dynamics that i don't quite get at home with my SET. More convincing bass than i'm used to.
A nicely balanced system, i would say.
Your Spendors aren't too shabby either - for a box.
Further listening afterwards when you had gone confirmed that very little readjustment by my ears was required in terms of the 'magic' OB factor having being removed from the equation, which for my bank balance (in terms of the Bastani factor) could be a very good thing ;)
But we shall see what happens - it's still an itch I have to scratch!
I'll see if I can knock up a playlist of the tunes we listened to. It might take a while, though!Quote:
Good to be introduced to some new artists, though i suspect i some of it will sound less interesting on my stuff.
LOL. I'll look forward to that - I could always bring the Copper amp with me to guarantee the same 'disco' levels if you can square it with the necessary parties concerned :gig:Quote:
I'll return the favour soon, with a visit to my place. Though you may have to strap a speaker to each ear, to achieve the same volume levels.
Marco.
A nice site:
http://www.maclementhorn.it/PHY-HP_Open_Baffle.html
... also worth exploring proved using the different sized "wings" option, pals... will post project and pixes soon.
http://www.phy-hp.com/English/Commun...ffle_Plan.html
Used this with my Philips 9710 and... well, it's nothing less than incredible... also in no-sand, no-frill, no-hassle version, as I lazily did.
Baffles aren't always special in super-heavy plywood... must tune-in: say 18 mm on 10 inches wideband and up to 25 mm with 15" woofers...
I love what open baffles do but must admit I am a bit scared by the DIY side and will it work in my room. I would want really good bass the kind that does kick drums well yet has no sense of overhang
I now heard the Atlas just a great speaker and the Hawthrone Duet which I need to hear again under better condictions. On Saturday i am off to hear another Open Baffle system
I cannot afford the Atlas and the Hawthorne I would need another amp as well and not really looking at adding another power amp into the system so seems to rule out that option. Maybe Saturday might prove more fruitfull
Open baffles don't get much more simple than mine. Just two or three bits of MDF, which you can get cut to size. The wiring and crossover is deliberately minimal. You can make some alterations to the shape to improve aesthetics, without seriously affecting the sound.
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...ll/Baffles.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...all/amp007.jpg
The above photos are old and do not show the low pass filter on the bass driver.
They look really nice. Even from the back they look well thought out and the wiring is neat :) You might give people some ideas :)
They sound bloody good, too, Beechy! I'm not easily impressed ;)
Marco.
Wow nice speakers
I am not worried about the woodwork but no experience of designing a crossover so its stuff like that really has stopped me so far
No need to design a crossover. No need to overcomplicate matters.
Mine uses a low pass filter from Maplins on the bass driver. If Maplins no longer sell them, i've seen similar things on Ebay. Mine feeds the bass driver with frequencies up to around 120Hz.
Then it's just one capacitor in line with the full range driver to keep out the bass. Again this should cut in at around 120Hz.
Maybe a resistor as well to prevent the FR driver output overpowering the bass driver. The whole thing can be easily and cheaply tuned for personal preference or for different drivers..
Al, how did you get on with that movement in the 'full range' driver cones - did it do the same thing back at yours? :)
Marco.
Dunno what it is, Marco. Everything seems ok. Doesn't do it here at the volume i play at.
Might just be a reflection of the bass wave off the Spendors, which were right behind.
Anyone thinking about building these,just go ahead! It really doesn't get any easier than this and yes,they sound superb.As Al said,the good thing is you can easily tune them to your taste/room.The folding baffle is an excellent idea also.You can open them out for listening,and fold them away when not in use for better WAF.
When I built the "PHY" style w/different wings size open baffle with piano-hinges, I lived happily for some weeks as I used some paperwall I had handy on front-panel which she loved... much more than my horns(speakers), actually.
BTW: please use birch plywood, NOT MDF... IMHO it's a sound-killer... NOT a killer-sound:smoking:
Also worth considering as a top-quality baffle material, a Panzerholz 25 mm thickness... http://www.ltlewis.co.uk/b15.htm
My apologies for (someway) playing the "I-know-all role"... please note the IMHO foreword:)
Yes, that could well have been the reason, although it was interesting that it was happening on one speaker more than on the other... I think what we should perhaps do is for me to bring my kit to yours (everything minus the speakers) and see if it happens again. I think it's also partly to do with how they're being driven.Quote:
Originally Posted by alb
It's an interesting one for sure!
Marco.
Excellent info here. My mind and heart are set and i'll definatley be doing a straight rip off of alb's design. it's gonna take a few months so i can slip it under the wifedar - no mean feat as she's an air traffic controller:lol:
I'd like to use veneered mdf for the baffle so i can get a pretty finish should i like them. this stuff can be a little expensive though so would like to know what the front baffle dimensions are (so i can cost it and decide)
many thanks
Gareth
I see there are various emince 15s at vaying prices alpha-delta £35-£65ish
are these pretty much similar or is the power handling (200-400w)a major concern. I don't wish to sell my self short but if i don't need to buy the most expensive then that's a help.
Marco, it seems unlikely that a reflected bass wave from your Spendors would cause cone displacement on the OB bass. As you suggest it seems more likely that this is something to track down upstream. Was this a big cone movement, ie like a badly warped record can cause? Did it happen with CD too? I assume it wasn't continuous, just when music was playing, did it happen all the time music was playing? Valve pre and power amps when they go unstable they "motorboat", this is a low frequency beating, normally though you would hear this rather than only see it and it would be continuous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Don't worry. It's just the LF instability in Marco's rubbish old music centre! :eyebrows:Quote:
Originally Posted by alb
:lolsign:
Oh, I see Clive beat me to it.... Sorry.
Hi Gareth,
Al will confirm I'm sure,but I think he used the Betas.I think the different models have different impedances and sensitivity.
Clive.
It's just a noticeable cone movement on the full range drivers. These only have an Xmax of 1mm and normally don't move visibly on my system.
It's nothing like motorboating or the kind of movement you get with dc.
I'd expect this to happen if i was running them as full range, but they should be crossing over at 120Hz. Its not enough to concern me, but the fact it was more obvious on the left side just made me think.
LOL, Mikey, good one! :ner:
Clive, I'm sure Al will be able to describe it much better than I can, but I don't think it's as a result of what you describe above. The best way I can describe it is that the 'full-range' drivers (their response tailored to be used as midrange and high frequency units) were 'pulsing', or moving in a piston-like fashion, in time with the music and in conjunction with the bass cones, but on one speaker it was doing it significantly more (L/H channel) than on the other.Quote:
Marco, it seems unlikely that a reflected bass wave from your Spendors would cause cone displacement on the OB bass. As you suggest it seems more likely that this is something to track down upstream. Was this a big cone movement, ie like a badly warped record can cause? Did it happen with CD too? I assume it wasn't continuous, just when music was playing, did it happen all the time music was playing? Valve pre and power amps when they go unstable they "motorboat", this is a low frequency beating, normally though you would hear this rather than only see it and it would be continuous.
I'd be interested in your further thoughts on this. I basically put it down to my rather punchier and more powerful push-pull amp putting more bass energy into the drive units than normally happens with Al's SET amp, together with perhaps the slightly more capable source components reproducing a stronger 'musical signal' and thus both combining to drive the speakers much harder than normal with Al's equipment.
It's worth noting also that at no point was there any audible distortion and that the speakers could quite clearly be driven very loudly and with seemingly endless available headroom.
That's why I'd like to take my gear around to Al's and see if the same thing happens in a different room and without the Spendors in situ, and also compare the effect of Al's source and control components to mine using his speakers. The only way to ascertain what's happening is to remove as many variables as possible.
Marco.
Perhaps the filters are not doing the job properly? I would imagine that may be a possible cause, and as for the effect being greater on one side that may simply be down to to the fact that bass is considerably less directional than mid / treble energy and therefore it would "sound" like the problem is coming from both channels? all hypothetical of course.