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Does anyone remember my previous encounter with Marc? It was certainly 'entertaining', although despite what he's learned since then, it still doesn't appear that he's grasped what the whole purpose is of extensively modifying an SL-1200/1210, if he thinks you can get there simply by buying a P9! :doh:
Your thoughts please, gentleman, on Marc's (continued) somewhat misguided ramblings?
Marco.
Does it really matter what he thinks?
Probably not.
Does he think that his shit don't stink?
Comes across that way :eyebrows:
Indeed... I just thought it was rather amusing how someone could continue to so spectacularly miss the point!
Marco.
Link to the original thread please?
I might not necessarily agree with him 100%, but he does have a point... :cool:Quote:
It all comes down to the fact that there are two types of audiophiles. One group wants to tweak and modify until the cows come home. They're constantly scouring the Internet for tips from other tweakers. The other group, however, wants to buy something that works right out of the box. They want quality, durability and performance. You just have to decide which group you belong to.
Think about these approaches as it relates to the automobile industry. Would you rather own a Hyundai Excel that has been tuned to the hilt using $20,000 worth of parts from a dozen different companies from all over the world? Or would you rather just own a Porsche Cayman S? I'll take the Porsche... and the P9, please.
Not really, as a P9 will never sound like a modded Techy, or vice versa! :doh:
The point is NO other T/T in the world sounds like an SL-1210, modified in the way, say, mine or Martin's has been done, or Andrew's - it's unique. You either love it or you don't, but it *is* unique! Therefore, it you want that particular brand of uniqueness, there is simply no other way of obtaining it - and there's no arguing that fact.
Furthermore, he fails to realise that if your ears cannot tolerate what low and medium-mass belt-drive T/Ts do so fundamentally wrong, then why would a P9 (or any turntable of that ilk) ever cut it in preference to a high-quality direct-drive T/T, which has a totally different way of presenting music? If you like what *that* does, then NOTHING ELSE will do.
That's my whole point, Dave, and it's one that Marc patently fails to grasp... :rolleyes:
Marco.
I think the point is better encapsulated in the first paragraph Marco, and besides, everyone is entitled to their point of view even if it may differ from our own. surely? From what I've read he's as passionate about Rega's as we are for 1210's so who are we to argue? He obviously prefers the sound of a BDTT so no amount of bitching on our part is going to change his mind... ;)
I'm not saying that he's not entitled to his views, of course he is, but rather that he's completely missing the point about the whole purpose of heavily modifying an SL-1200/1210.
That much is blatantly obvious.
Marco.
The thing is Marco there are always going to be people who don't get the point. Marc is honest enough to admit that he's not heard your rig and was even willing to admit it might sound like the dogs danglies. Although his article isn't entirely free of judgemental comments, on the whole he makes his point well from his perspective, and I suspect many would share his reservations. From speaking to me on the phone you know I have my doubts about lavishing thousands of pounds on my SL. That doesn't mean I'm not a fan of the Techie sound it's just that I'd rather buy a product that was fully formed from the outset, if you get my meaning? Like a good many I suspect, I don't possess the skills or confidence to perform the majority of mods available for this deck therefore by definition, rather than upgrade via mods I cannot fit myself it would be safer to go out and buy a fully formed product, that way I'm not risking fucking up the one I have.
EDIT: I am mixing up my personal circumstances with my commentary on Marc's article and I apologise for that. I shall expand on my own circumstances in a little while. I'm not saying either of you are right or wrong, just that you are both espousing opinions which originate from different sides of the same coin :)
Sure, Dave, I get that, but you don't know the history with this guy. He was as blinkered as they come, and has only softened his stance slightly, after being suitably 'educated' from the last time we crossed swords!
If someone can find a link to the original thread, you'll understand more where I'm coming from :)
Marco.
This one?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Marc Phillips of the Anti-Direct Drive League: Does he know his stuff or is he BS?
.
I think Marc's good point is questioning spending so much in moding a product rather than buying a better designed TT in the first place. Where he is wrong is that a viable alternative to Marco's set up is unlilkely to be a Rega P9. My only brief exposure to this TT at shows suggests it's more a highly refined P3 rather than something that competes with high end TT's.
That's the one, dude. I knew that I could rely on you to find it! ;)
Those who missed it the first time around, like Dave, should read that thread to the end, which will then give a better perspective on the comments I've made here.
Marco.
Just to be absolutely clear, specifically which T/T are you talking about, Paul?Quote:
My only brief exposure to this TT at shows suggests it's more a highly refined P3 rather than something that competes with high end TT's.
Marco.
Let me explain the Techie mod path from my own perspective... ;)
I suffer from extremely restricted movement due to a chronic back injury. This affliction is ever present but it waxes and wanes in intensity over periods of time. This affects everything I do to such an extent that it is very difficult for me to plan ahead, also not having a car now has robbed me of all my mobility too. Public transport is a total no-no because I cannot walk more than a few yards on a good day and I can't walk at all on a bad one. What little ability I do have to work on my TT's is totally governed by the length of time I can sit comfortably on a chair (this varies). Consequently, me spending hours with a soldering iron doing mods is never going to happen. I even had to get someone to come fit the SME to my Techie because I couldn't cope with the work. Incidentally this is the sort of thing that I would have thoroughly put my back into (excuse the pun :D ) before I had my accident, so to be brutally honest I am a victim of circumstance. Taking the above into consideration it is highly unlikely I am ever going to be able to perform some of the wonderful mods contained within these forum pages other than the very basic ones (platters, feet, mats and such like).
Truth be told regarding my Techie, apart from a few small upgrades this is probably as good as it is ever going to get unless I win the lottery, in which case the Techie will be out of here to be replaced by an Inspire Monarch. This will give me piece of mind (it will come with a warranty), and a very smart looking TT complete with many of the SL's little foibles already ironed out, and that my friend is my preferred way of doing things based on my circumstances. Of course, most of that last paragraph is a pipe dream :lol:
Due to my circumstances the most efficient hifi solution for me would be to go totally digital. I listen to stuff on Spotify 90% of the time anyway. I am not averse to paying for good quality digital downloads and I if I want CD's I order them online, so it could be argued that going analogue is detrimental to my lifestyle. On that basis I will need to give this some serious thought... :scratch:
Fair enough Marco, I'll read the thread in a mo ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Lol - no worries. I can't dispute anything you've written in your previous post, other than that, to me, the Inspire looks like a pile of shit :eyebrows:
No doubt it's a very good T/T, though. It just does nothing for me, aesthetically, and I don't like the guy's morals who designed it.
Marco.
Okey dokey I get the picture now :lol:
Marc was a bit of a silly billy sounding off immediately like that. Perhaps he became embarrassed which might help to explain his, shall we say, robust comments... :D
Bear in mind Marco, it's not that I wouldn't wish to try out the mods, I just can't... :eyebrows:Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
While he does make a 'point' it also belies his enormous lack of understanding here.
His analogy of a Hyundai +$20k of parts or a Porche Cayman s is also way off of the mark further proving his non understanding of the point.
Now if he had said take a Porche and add $20k of bits he would be a lot closer to the 'point' in my view :-)
After all - the 1200 does have one of the best 'engines' out there for stability and responds very well to tweaking with better bits I'm led to believe. ;)
Think everyone has a bit of history here and there, sometimes best just not to drag past stuff into the present I find.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Like a lot of areas of this hobby, different ways to achieve the same goal I guess?
We all feel strong about "our" way :)
Its just someone else's opinion man. :)
The P9 may come across as a souped up P3 concept, but it IS a great and highly valid top end turntable, even if it doesn't float Techie owner's boats. That expensive ceramic platter wasn't done for show you know...
I just looked at the link to the origianl thread - WHERE do direct dives vibrate? The thing is, they don't! There may be an issue with the rapid servo regulator supply frequency/jitter? in the techie? but all these tweaks probably get rid of it at a stroke, and the Funk platter has answered any questions of the heavy platter changing things in the way the motor works.
Dynamic wow on belt driven decks is a HUGE issue for some. My way of dealing with it is to recommend a low tracking weight cartridge if possible, so the drive isn't loaded up too much. I know this doesn't solve the problem, but it certainly helps.
Too many blinkered idiots in audiophoolery, and if it takes one to know one, then so be it :lol: Never say never in anything - leaves you a get-out clause......
That is it in a nutshell... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazjam
Everybody is entitled to their opinion, even when they're wrong :) .
Regarding the Rega's running fast...
I still have and use the Linn strobe/alignment protractor. This uses a hand held battery operated light at 300Hz frequency and I found it invaluable in getting LP12's to proper speed (having a little technique for getting playing, rather than static speed absolutely spot-on), making LP and CD comparisons a doddle, but that's another story. I can say without any prejudice that ALL Rega 2's and 3's up until the P3 in 2000 or thereabouts, ran slightly fast AND THIS WAS AUDIBLE as well as clearly measurable. Roy Gandy dismissed it out of hand at the time, but I'm sure I'm correct when I say that the fixed-motor upgrade they introduced, with fresh pulley stuck to the motor spindle, seemed to bring the speed accuracy into line. haven't played with the new ones, but I'm sure the above is history now..
I only mention this as my findings are easily proved with the correct accurate strobe and a collection of LP's and partnering CD's. Until 2000 or therabouts, no doubt of it.....
IMHO (and in terms of what I have experienced), I feel that SL1200 modded or un-modded represents great value. Its a real shame that production has stopped, since the SL1200 offers the end-user plenty of choice, and they can take it to whatever level their interest or budget allows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
(In stock form, I think you just need to choose your cartridge very carefully, since it can be a bit hit-and-miss.)
I suppose Marco's SL1200, and some others on this forum represent the pinnacle of what can be done with a SL1200. I still think when the costs are added up they still represent great vfm, or SPPV in AoS-lingo.
My own SL1200 (Sa750d, TS-STD-PSU, MN bearing, Kontra-B, LH-6000) is probably very much "middle of the road" in AoS terms. But last year having attended a hifi show, and listened to some mega-buck off-the-shelf TTs, I came to the conclusion that I am not really missing all that much from my own setup.
I also own a (1987)LP12/Hercules/RB1000, so I am not really tied to any particular camp. At the end of the day, we only need to please ourselves. (Also if you price up a brand new LP12 to a decent spec level, the cost is pretty astronomical!!! You would be able to have carte-blanche in terms of similar budget if deployed towards a high-spec SL1200.)
But yes, based on my limited experience the SL1200, can definitely punch above its weight at whatever level you spec it out to.
Summary I find myself in agreement with Marco, much more than Marc..
:)
EDIT: i don't really agree with the need to argue absolutes, if you prefer a Linn, Rega, Technics, Thorens, whatever that's all fine. So long as you are happy yourself at the end of the day, and are able to enjoy the music.
It does seem the bloke has lived with these decks rega/technics for a fair while so at least he has real world experience of his likes/dislikes.
Rega P9 ! I will expand on that in saying it is a good package at it's price point and has the advantage of being as near to plug and play a top end TT can be. It still has the Rega house sound and for similar money I think others are far better to my ears such as a Mitchel Orbe or possibly a modified Techie with the same money lavished on it. I think you have to be looking at something more upmarket in making comparisons either positive or negative against your particular deck. I'm sure Marc's main point is that he would rather have something good of the shelf than spend vast amounts on mods a point which many of us would agree with. His anti Technics comments appear to be based on the standard deck or a more lightly modified version which would cover the versions offered by KAB, Sound Hi-Fi and Zu.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Some of you guys are still continuing to miss the point. Whether Marc loves Regas, Michells or Fischer Price turntables, is moot – I really don’t care. Yes, he’s entitled to his opinion, but that’s not the point either... :rolleyes:
The point (and let’s hope it sinks in this time) is that in this argument the concept of 'just buying a proper high-end turntable in the first place' is fallacious, simply because doing that will NOT result in one ending up with the SAME thing!
Marc uses this analogy:
Ok, what if instead you wanted (and indeed owned) a very rare sports car, that for you had something unique and special, and that car was only made in tiny quantities, such as, for example, the Lamborghini Walter Wolf Countach, of which only three were made – and only one of those cars, for you, would do?Quote:
Would you rather own a Hyundai Excel that has been tuned to the hilt using $20,000 worth of parts from a dozen different companies from all over the world? Or would you rather just own a Porsche Cayman S? I'll take the Porsche... and the P9, please.
In that situation, would you be satisfied instead with a Porsche Cayman S, or indeed ANY other car?? No, of course you wouldn’t! And that’s my whole point...
A Technics SL-1210 turntable, modified in a unique way, with bespoke components, is my (and others) Lamborghini Walter Wolf Countach. For those interested, here's the chap in question:
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/649...lterwolfco.jpg
Therefore, just like a Porsche Cayman S would never satisfy the Lamborghini aficionado, neither would a P9 (or any belt-drive turntable) satisfy the bespoke modified SL-1210 aficionado (and also someone whose ears are attuned to the specific way that direct-drive T/Ts present music). That last bit is very important! How many brand new 'off the shelf' high-end D/D T/Ts are there to chose from currently - and how much do they cost in comparison to a modded Techy?? Think about it.
Thus one cannot simply 'just buy a proper high-end turntable in the first place', simply because there is nothing else out there available 'off the shelf', like a bespoke modified SL-1210, so doing what Marc suggests would not result in giving modified SL-1210 aficionados what they wanted!
The point of this exercise was not to "bitch" about Marc’s legitimate and justified turntable preferences, but rather to expose the fallaciousness of his car analogy, in reference to highly modifying a Technics direct-drive turntable.
Are we getting it now, chaps? :)
Marco.
Count me in, with bells on!!Quote:
Originally Posted by DSJR
I can hear it straight away (and its effect on music reproduced) every time I listen to low or medium-mass belt-drive T/Ts, including Regas.
Direct-drive T/Ts are by no means perfect (after all, all T/Ts are a compromise of some sort), *but* the effect on music of dynamic wow is completely absent - and *that* aspect of music reproduction is extremely important to me, and why I could not live with any T/T which exhibited the former trait.
Couple that with my love for SPUs, which track at 4g, and you can see why, for me, only T/Ts with sufficient 'balls' (D/Ds, idlers or high-mass string drives), to overcome the effect of dynamic wow, would ever cut it.
This is also a point that Marc completely misses, as 95% of what I suspect he'd consider as being 'proper high-end T/Ts', are low or medium-mass belt-drives! :rolleyes:
Indeed!Quote:
Too many blinkered idiots in audiophoolery.
Marco.
Whoa nice lambo!
It didn't really come across that way Marco to be honest mate, hence the replies you got.
Its not that we didn't get it ;) it was just a bit open ended and ambigious what you were meaning? :)
You cleared it up though just there. Cool. :cool:
PS This is coming from an ex Planar 3 owner!
That's interesting, Rav... May I ask what "mega-buck off-the-shelf TTs" you compared it with?Quote:
Originally Posted by gx502
That's a very good point indeed, and one some should think about very carefully! ;)Quote:
(Also if you price up a brand new LP12 to a decent spec level, the cost is pretty astronomical!!! You would be able to have carte-blanche in terms of similar budget if deployed towards a high-spec SL1200.)
Marco.
Excellent! For a while there it was feeling like a severe case of :brickwall::brickwall:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazjam
:D
Marco.
RAV makes an interesting point. I have often come away from shows with the same feeling re TT's I have heard in megabuck systems. However this is obviously not exclusive to owning a modified Technics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Using the latest modded up LP12 as a price v quality comparison is a little extreme to say the least. These have got to be the most overpriced mods ever dreamed up, reinforcing the impression I have always had of Linn for profit maximisation based on taking advantage of those who blindly buy into their philosophy. It puts the LP12 in competition with some seriously good and better thought out ground up designs. So basicaly irrespective of the SQ improvements it's pretty easy to come up with something that is better value.
Hi Paul,
Just before I sold my soul to the devil, and went all 'direct-drivey', I auditioned both the P7 and P9, at a dealer, taking my (then) heavily-modded P5 (with Funk Firm AchroPLAT, stripped, polished, and Cardas-rewired RB700 and Rega T/T PSU) along as a reference. I also had a custom-made solid brass counterweight balance (made by Thrunobulaxx, who used to post here), fitted to the RB700.Quote:
Rega P9 ! I will expand on that in saying it is a good package at it's price point and has the advantage of being as near to plug and play a top end TT can be. It still has the Rega house sound and for similar money I think others are far better to my ears such as a Mitchel Orbe or possibly a modified Techie with the same money lavished on it.
I enjoyed both the P7 and P9, the latter which was notably superior (although rather 'cool and lean' in balance), but neither were sufficiently better than my 'race-tuned' P5, to justify the necessary expenditure. It was therefore at that point that I decided to abandon belt-drive T/Ts and go the modded Techy route, which was something at that point I had been doing a considerable amount of research on.
Based on direct experience, therefore, of comparing all three Regas to the first incarnation of a 'fully tricked out' Technics, which I bought from KAB USA, I can confirm that to my ears the latter was unquestionably superior in many areas - and of course the current iteration of my T/T is significantly superior to that of the original KAB version. Go figure...
I'm sure that some people view me simply as a 'Techy fanboy', but what they don't realise is that I've only reached where I am now after having conducted vast amounts of research on modifying the Technics, and having had considerable experience of listening to many viable alternatives. I'm simply not the type to jump on bandwagons or be influenced by 'flavours of the month'.
You can therefore bet your boots that when I own a particular piece of kit, it's for a bloody good reason! ;)
My love of the Technics is founded purely and simply on my respect for it (when suitably modified) as a first-class transcription device of music on vinyl, not on a desire to be part of any 'club'. Some folks need to get that into their heads... I don't do cliques!
Indeed, and I'm glad you agree.Quote:
I think you have to be looking at something more upmarket in making comparisons either positive or negative against your particular deck.
Again I agree. He does come across, however, as rather blinkered and closed-minded, and keen to devalue other people's valid choices. What he writes on his blog, IMO, verges on a hate campaign against the Technics and what it stands for - weird... :scratch: Like I've already explained, the fact is, there is no 'off the shelf' alternative to a fully tricked-out Techy.Quote:
I'm sure Marc's main point is that he would rather have something good of the shelf than spend vast amounts on mods a point which many of us would agree with. His anti Technics comments appear to be based on the standard deck or a more lightly modified version which would cover the versions offered by KAB, Sound Hi-Fi and Zu.
But it takes all sorts, I guess. He is certainly a 'character'!
Marco.
And yet many, who could afford it, Paul, wouldn't baulk at spending the necessary dosh, but at the same time are critical (often to the point of ridicule) of those of us who've spent many thousands of pounds on modifying the Technics.Quote:
Using the latest modded up LP12 as a price v quality comparison is a little extreme to say the least. These have got to be the most overpriced mods ever dreamed up, reinforcing the impression I have always had of Linn for profit maximisation based on taking advantage of those who blindly buy into their philosophy. It puts the LP12 in competition with some seriously good and better thought out ground up designs. So basicaly irrespective of the SQ improvements it's pretty easy to come up with something that is better value.
The feeling seems to be that, with the Linn, such expenditure is justified because it's a 'proper turntable', whereas the Technics isn't... That's my point.
Such brainwashed thinking smacks of both double standards and an ingrained belief system (not to mention, snobbery) which is long past its sell-by date, no?
Marco.
The decks were, an Audio-Note w/ Io-Gold MC, an Avid-Acutus/SME-V, and a Feickert Blackbird/Kuzma arm. (I also heard some mid-line OL decks.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Of course we are talking about unfamiliar decks, listened to in unfamiliar systems, with at times unfamiliar music setup in hotel rooms. So the comparisons are pretty vague.
I am not saying that either of the two turntables I have at home are better than any of the above. But my overall feeling was that I am not missing all that much....
Kind regards....
PS: I only mentioned the brand new LP12, since Linn is a very established hifi manufacturer, and is indicative of a off the shelf solution.
You can see exactly where he is coming from with his analogy at the end of the piece:
'Think about these approaches as it relates to the automobile industry. Would you rather own a Hyundai Excel that has been tuned to the hilt using $20,000 worth of parts from a dozen different companies from all over the world? Or would you rather just own a Porsche Cayman S? I'll take the Porsche... and the P9, please.'
If he had actually done some listening comparisons then there would be some credibility in his views but he obviously hasn't and the analogy gives this away - he is basing his views on an idea, on a principle and not on practical experience.
incidentally a pal of mine owned a Porsche 911 Carrera for a year or so. He traded it in for a Subaru Imprezza. Why? Because the Subaru was just as quick and it handled better.
There are many out there that will douse the 1200 camp. Some will do it because they are involved with the industry and retailers do not sell the modded. If the reviewers did, then they would be supporting the "buy it direct from the cottage" and where would their advertising come from? Sometimes though, it can be out of confusion or worse still, arrogance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
As there is a car analogy, here comes my spanner.
Modding anything will always give different results, whether the engine, suspension or bodywork. The product will get further away from the original. The Porsche in standard stock form is a known result. By spending a lot on mods to any car will take it off in a different direction than nthe initial performance criteria. (No pun intended) Some better, some worse.
The problem with 1200's and modding as I see it, is that there are variations of SL1210, plus by mixing the pieces (several each of the following)
Mats
Platters
Bearings
Power Supplies
Arms
the end result will not be the same. There would be a terrific number of variant SL1210's. Which route to go down?
There already may exist on this forum a chart with two possible avenues to go down, but I am unaware of it. This would help people to mod their 1200 in a logical path knowing the final outcome.
Whether you are a "Hot Rodder" or a "Plonk & Player", there are always going to be different opinions. Personally, I am a P&Per because the final result is consistency, however, at heart I am a rodder when I see a weakness in the basics. The only thing that I am amazed with in this industry is that so few UK manufacturers went down the DD route like JBE - Fashion or Bullshit. A DD Oracle would have been great. As for BD, I doubt I would ever go back.
Regs
Pete (DD all the way I'm afraid)
BTW If someone with the tech skills wants to rip apart a 1210 to be left with the guts, I can supply the slate cut platform for the exercise. A total rebuild from the ground up resulting in a SL2100.:uhho:
That's the problem, though, Martin - and unfortunately he's not alone... :rolleyes:Quote:
If he had actually done some listening comparisons then there would be some credibility in his views but he obviously hasn't and the analogy gives this away - he is basing his views on an idea, on a principle and not on practical experience.
People who think that way with audio, do my head right in, especially when they use their 'views' (based on the sum total of next to hee-haw) to attack those who've arrived at their choices, via the only valid and acceptable method: the practical experience of listening to and comparing equipment!
I will simply never understand the alternative mentality. Indeed it's dangerous, as the gullible and easily influenced will swallow the dogma and potentially ignore going down a route which could lead to their audio nirvana. Exposing such misinformation and prejudice is *precisely* why I continue to champion the Techy cause so vehemently here on AoS.
Marco.
P.S Excellent post, Peter. I'll get to it after lunch :)
Marc is definately entitled to is opinion without a doubt. His car analogy sort of felt like he was making a point but at the same time exagerating whilst firin a bit of a cheap shot, some may disagree. Getting back to the Techie modding - Again, I'll say that for me I cannot think of a more solid foundation of a turntable to build on with regards to achieving a high end performer to that regard. The thing is as solid as a solid thing which for me was so reassuring from the off. The fantastic motor system which we've covered loads of times and equates to rock solid speed would alone cost the others a bomb to manufacture and is only possible at the price these things left the shelves in the millions at because of mainly dj demand (solid build !!). Ease of use is second to non from scratch (pardun the pun). I picked my first ever 1210 Mk2 about 3+ years ago in very good order for a mere £160. Moved on a couple of years ago to my MK5g which cost me £430 brand new boxed. The 1200 / 1210 is a lot of deck for the money IMO.
Ok - The doubters say why spend £1K / £2K / £3K blah blah Like we all just find that sort of money in one hit and mod the thing and thats my point. Building over time at your own pace has always reaped great results for reasons including those above. I've spent just over £1K on KAB damper, Mike New bearing, Issonoes, External psu BUT over time. The music now sounds the best and more 'real / natural' than I could have ever imagined, built upon a seriously good, solid and reliable platform. A Mike New Platter of some kind will follow at some point which would probably add another £600.00 and then I'd happily pit my Techie up against any deck costing double what I've spent. Also remember that the parts added are not the equivalent of go faster stripes and big exhaust pipes. We are talking properly engineered and researched items that when purchased have brought real genuine improvements in all areas of the sonic presentation, not through colouration but through iliminating the crap. Testimonies in abundance through guys who care, research then produce quality - (Mike New, Paul Hynes, Vantage Audio, Audio Origami.............
Hi Rav,
Sure, but at the same time, if there had been any genuine vast sonic improvements, compared with what you're used to, you'd soon have heard them! :exactly:Quote:
The decks were, an Audio-Note w/ Io-Gold MC, an Avid-Acutus/SME-V, and a Feickert Blackbird/Kuzma arm. (I also heard some mid-line OL decks.)
Of course we are talking about unfamiliar decks, listened to in unfamiliar systems, with at times unfamiliar music setup in hotel rooms. So the comparisons are pretty vague.
It's interesting what you say, as those were some serious T/Ts.
I feel the exact same way whenever I go to shows. I find most high-end modern T/Ts flatter to decieve, are ridiculously overpriced, and generally offer little (if any) improvement over the classic designs from yesteryear, when most of the important engineering challenges, in terms of designing a high-quality turntable, were solved with some considerable aplomb! ;)Quote:
I am not saying that either of the two turntables I have at home are better than any of the above. But my overall feeling was that I am not missing all that much....
Marco.
And that's exactly where he seems to be missing the point/plot. We are all in this, passionately so, because we firmly believe that our components or systems truly reflect our personal tastes whether in music or simple aesthetics. We chose our equipment after careful listening, research and discourse with other "enthusiasts", to reach something that best does it for us. We spend more time and effort (and maybe money) on system building than buying a car - we are dead serious about it. On this premise alone I would never counter-argue with anyone over his choice of equipment. I think he knows best what stuff his ears like listen too.
So, I couldn't possibly agree with any of the points he raises - if a "pimped up" Hyundai with a turbocharged 164 valve, quadruple intercoolers, faster than light engine with Kevlar doors and gold door knobs is one's cup of tea and he enjoys owning/driving it then what's the problem? I'd certainly prefer the above over that poseur's delight the Porsche Cayenne.
If you mean digitally, then I would agree? How much better is 1989 GREAT than 2012 GREAT? I am with you on that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Regs
Pete
But you have an opinion and counter-argued as expressed by you choice of descriptions.Quote:
Originally Posted by vouk
How many times have you heard something and thought to yourself, the equipment chooser was deaf and missing something?
Regs
Pete
I think there are a couple major factors at play here. Firstly show exhibitors seem to be largely incapable of setting up a system to produce it's potential due to environmental problems or plain lazyness. Also the law of diminishing returns sets in rapidly. I have yet to hear a TT that shows a completely clean set of heels to a Mitchell Orbe within a sensibly priced system and in all round sound reproduction.Quote:
Originally Posted by gx502
I have heard a few good ones that would be worth buying but for their very high price. There are a number of new decks that from reviews and forum comments may be worth the money but I haven't heard them. They all have subtle differences in presentation and any manufacturers top of the range model takes a particular approach to its limits.
The result is the expensive deck may be harder to live with for most listeners than something that is built with a good balance of compromises. This also applies very much to flagship speaker models. I think a lot of high pricing is a result of superfluous cosmetics and unecessary overengineering as well as limiting demand to a restricted manufacturing capability. To some buyers exclusivity is all in hi-end hi-fi. This is similar to ownership of Rolex watches and Ferraris.
It depends on what you mean by "a completely clean set of heels". I've heard my Techy, in an earlier stage of its development, against an Orbe, in a familiar system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Audioman
The Techy did not piss all over the Orbe, but rather it offered an equally valid take on the music listened to. I could still hear what I don't like about belt-drive T/Ts, but I could also hear what the owner preferred about his Orbe.
If you value wide soundstaging and a sense of delicacy and air and space around voices and instruments, more than anything else, then Michell T/Ts have few rivals - it's the 'thing' that they do right the most, just as unwavering speed stability, solidity, and its impact on music reproduced, is what the Techy (and other D/D T/Ts of similar quality), do best. It's simply a matter of defining what aspects of music reproduction are the most important to you.
There is no 'perfect' anything in audio - only different flavours of one's own definition of 'perfection'.
I completely agree. What it appears to be mostly about now, in the high-end, is who can sell the best 'sizzle', and thus create the greatest cachet with their products, amongst well-heeled audiophiles, through the desirability of owning the badge with their brand name on it.Quote:
I think a lot of high pricing is a result of superfluous cosmetics and unecessary overengineering as well as limiting demand to a restricted manufacturing capability.
Bullshit to that, I say, even though I could afford to play in that playground! :mental: :wanker:
Good luck to them. The majority of these people, however, in my experience, are rarely genuine music lovers, which for me is the whole point of owning a high-end hi-fi system!! It shouldn't be there as an ornament or a status symbol - if it is, then you've got it for the wrong reasons.Quote:
To some buyers exclusivity is all in hi-end hi-fi. This is similar to ownership of Rolex watches and Ferraris.
Marco.
The essence of the argument remains the same though. I obviously have my own opinion on many things and know what I personally like/dislike - and I have certainly heard or read great things about equipment that I would personally never buy or recommend. But as it's all a matter of personal taste and we are all in a position to chose what suits us best - any counter argument becomes by definition redundant.Quote:
Originally Posted by bogle111
Yes, I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by vouk
Wholeheartedly agree. But then again there are many out there that wouldn't consider a Rolex or Ferrari as exclusive. Far from it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Audioman
Here's something that just occured to me & another point that Marc missed by way more than a country mile :lol:
I think Marco kind of alluded to it, but maybe even he didn't hit the nail on the head quite as squarely as he'd have liked ;)
This bloke appears to want something straight out of a box to be the be all & end all of the situation. I get the impression that if he didn't have to set the deck up in any way or even fit a cartridge he'd be a happy bunny.
Well there are people out there that don't like moving into a Barratt show home, they like to maybe renovate an older property to create something that is exactly what they are looking for, rather than simply keeping up with the Jones's.
What pride in ownership is there for people that can simply afford to drop a good few thousand on a TT compared to a person that has taken their time & built something that will do exactly what they want with far few compromises.
As Marco states, you'll be looking for a needle in a very substantial haystack if you want to find a modern top qualty direct drive turntable. While there is one that I believe uses the Techie motor (maybe), I can't think of another..
So you build it or compromise...
While I know there are manufacturers making incredibly expensive subwoofers out there, I neither have the money & neither am I willing to accept the compromises that these manufacturers have built into their own products!
No, I'd rather design & build my own & not compromise & have a heck of a lot more pride in ownership of what would be a unique item.
But then it's so much easier to compromise if you have a fat wallet isn't it :rfl: