Denon 103 Pro and his step up

I have read on the audiocircle forum that Marco owns a Denon 103 Pro as I do.
A really great cartridge that has really more hights then the 103R and simply a better sound of another classe. I'm really happy about it (I use the 103Pro with a (japanese) Ortofon AS-309 S 13inch tonearm on an old Garrard 401 with a massive german plynth that sounds like a little Verdier!

I want to ask here if someone tried the step up of HIGHPHONIC HP-T5S with this cartridge and if it can compete with Denon's AU-S1 ?

Actually I use a twicked (better cables and cinches) Denon AU-300 that I want anyway to improve with a better product and that's why I'm asking your advice.

Ciao from Rome,

Piero

Hi Marco, I need your answer!

Kind regards,

Piero

PS I choose the 103 Pro after reading an article of guru Reto Luigi Andreoli on the alternative magazine HiFi Szene from Swiss. This magazine doesn't exist anymore because was against any promotion and brain washing of the hifi industry. Reto Andreoli simply wrote what a nonsence was the philosophy of a VdH diamond referred on how records were pressed. For him a well combined 103 (heavy tonarm as Fidelity Research, Ikeda, 3012 + a massive player as a Verdier Platine) was the heaven of reproduction, at least, without any artefacts.
A swiss friend sold me one of his 103 Pro bought in Japan telling me that it was simply a cartidge of another level (better hights, great deepness, etc.) and he was really right!

I use a Denon Au-300 with my Denon DL301ii, a nice little step up.

For Denon Dl103 (regardless of type) try and check the availability of an Audiotorium 23 (try googling that name). It's a German made step up transformer and is specifically made for the DL103. If you do a search on the Stereophile website you may be able to find the review on there (it was in Art Dudley's column).

By all accounts it's an excellent step up and Marco has used one.

Hi Piero,

Sorry for the delay, I've just been a bit busy lately :)

The Highphonic HP-T5S is a very good step-up transformer, and ideally matched to the 103Pro. I used to have one and sold it to Scoobs (Nick) who posts here before buying my Auditorium 23. He has since sold it on to someone else after himself buying an A23. It certainly works very well indeed but in my opinion it is not as good as the A23 or Denon AU-S1 (see links below):

A23: http://www.toneimports.com/auditorium23/a23stepup.html

Six Moons review: http://www.sixmoons.com/audioreviews...rium23/23.html

AU-S1: http://www.audiocubes2.com/product/D...ansformer.html

Much depends on how much you want to spend. The AU-S1 is priced on the Audiocubes website, and the A23 is £350 in the UK. You can email Tone Imports and find out how much they are to send to Italy and be informed of your nearest dealer. Keith Aschenbrenner, who designed the A23, is a lovely guy to deal with - a real enthusiast with a terrific ear for voicing hi-fi equipment.

He values tone and timbre, which sadly are qualities that are lacking in so much hi-fi equipment made now, particularly moving coil cartridges, which these days prioritise detail retrieval and 'clarity' (not how I would consider it in the genuine sense) above all else resulting in a somewhat 'forensic', clinical, portrayal of music that does not appeal to my ears. This is where classic cartridges such as the Denon DL-103, EMT TSD/XSD-15 and Ortofon SPU score over their 'forensic' counterparts. Keith also has a wonderful system which I'm sure you'll approve of!

You are absolutely right about the 103Pro. It is in my opinion the best of all the 103 derivatives, mainly because of the extended high frequency response to 55,000Hz (instead of the 45,000Hz of standard models). This gives it detail and clarity which other 103s can't manage, whilst retaining the bass drive and 'funky' sounding factor that the 103 is renowned for.

I hope that helps. If there's anything else you'd like to know just ask. If you'd like to know about the Audiocom modifications to the Sony X-777ES (as per your email) start a thread in The Digital Impression and I'll pop by and deal with it :smoking:

Marco.

Hey Marco... I'm not sure if this 'extra clarity' will be due to the extended frequency range. Not even my STAX earspeakers go up to 55Khz and your Spendors are measured at 20Khz +- 3db. I'd not really expect to see anyone on this forum with speakers that extend past 30Khz.

Yom, you're right. But it's a bit like the effect of a supertweeter: you can 'hear' its effect, even though technically you can't, if you see what I mean. The extended high frequency response of the Pro also adds 'air' and 'space' to music.

It's about the knock-on effect, sonically, further down the frequency range where the ear is most sensitive that the extension to 55,000Hz is noticed. This is what makes the 103Pro special compared to other 103s :)

Marco.

Hi Marco et al.,
I´m using an AT-650 with my 103Pro into a P10/Sugden a21SE. It´s the only SUT I´ve heard and, living in the Canaries, am likely to hear unless I buy blind as I did with my 103Pro. How does the AT compare ? I´m having a Kondo rewire on my Ittok LV111 for Christmas and hopefully I will then be in a better position to appreciate what one of these SUTs can do. I rather fancy the Highphonics one - any idea of the price ?

By the way, would you contemplate a retip job for the 103Pro or do you favour staying with the original spherical one ?
Chris

Hi Chris,

Mmm, where should I start... First of all I rate the P10 and Sugden as excellent bits of kit, so you're fine there. However I'm afraid that an Ittok just isn't really suitable for a DL-103Pro, or otherwise. It's an excellent arm, but it really needs a Linn or a Lyra cartridge, or perhaps an OC-9 or AT-33PTG, which would work well with your AT-650 step-up transformer.

The problem with a 103 on an Ittok is that a) there isn't sufficient effective mass, particularly at the headshell, to optimise its performance, nor is the headshell large enough to accept its physical size comfortably, and b) the Ittok's mid-forward sonic signature doesn't suit the 103, as it possesses similar traits in that area. I'm sure you're getting acceptable results but it's far from an ideal combination.

The other thing is that I suspect your AT-650 will not provide the correct loading and impedance values which the 103Pro (or otherwise) requires. Ideally, although I appeciate the challenges in your part of the world, MC cartridges and SUTs should be purchased together as a combination and both designed together from the ground up. This is what happens, for example with the Denon AU-300 and AU-S1 devices and Denon cartridges, and what has happened with the likes of the A23 - it's why they work so well.

Depending on what's most important to you, I would either keep the Ittok and find a cartridge which suits it better, or if you really like the 103Pro, find an arm which it'll work with - something high-mass with a detachable headshell would be ideal, athough these are pretty thin on the ground, and then buy either one of Denon's own SUTs, a Highphonic, or an A23. You don't say what deck you've got. Given that you're using an Ittok I'm presuming it's an LP12. If so, again this is not the ideal deck to use with a DL-103.

As for re-tips, personally I'm not a big fan as I feel that they remove some of the original sought after character from cartridges, even though certain sonic improvements may be gained in other areas. Troikas are a good example - I don't think the ESco re-tips sound as good, and I've heard similar things happening with DL-103s. I'd be interested to hear how Nick (Scoobs) gets on with his recently sapphire-modified 103Pro. Perhaps this will be an exception to the rule :)

Marco.

Hi Chris
Would I be right in guessing you post as Alvolake on the wam?

The Highphonics SUT new from Japan will set you back around £220 with import tax etc. I sold mine to a wammer (musicbox) who has recently been trying to shift it on...have you not seen it? I think he still has it.

Being the grateful recipient of Marco's hand-me-downs I also have a 103pro too...well it was a pro, it is coming back hopefully tomorrow with a sapphire cantilever and fancy paratracer stylus. Trouble is the guys at Expert Stylus Co have taken over 2 months to do this which is killing me now as I hadn't budgeted for a back up cartridge, and had I asked previously they would have sent me a stock 103 as a courtesy car(t) as these fellas work on 1908 timescales not 2008 :steam: :doh: I just hope I'm back tomorrow singing their praises as they are just meticulous.

You should also consider nuding your 103pro, as it responds well to the additional mass, and if, like me you're not convinced by the poor headshell/cart coupling interface of the 103.

Regarding the Denon AU-S1. I think this is really aimed at the ultra high compliance and ultra low output DL304 and top of the range A-S1. The best options for you would be the hiphonics, or a really nice letter to Santa asking for a Auditorium23, or perhaps a CimeMag. Have a butchers here for details.

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Regarding the Denon AU-S1. I think this is really aimed at the ultra high compliance and ultra low output DL304 and top of the range A-S1.

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Did you mean the DL-S1?

I'm pretty sure that's not the case, mate, regarding the DL-304. If anything it's the opposite. I'd imagine that the DL-103 and top of the range DL-S1 are more fussy with step-up transformers than the DL-304. I know where you're coming from, and I could be wrong, but most people I know who run DL-304s do so quite happily into active transistor MC stages.

With a 103Pro the best SUT, IMO, is either the top Highphonic one (I forget the model number, but it's up from the HP-T5S), a Denon AU-S1 or an A23.

Hey, you could have grown a big bushy beard by the time ESco have taken to do the mods on your cartridge! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Funny enough Marco, I haven't shaved since last friday, as I have the week off work.

Just looking at that link again and came across his 1210 page...interesting.

Interesting link (the first one). The CimeMag looks like another viable SUT option. I had to chuckle at this bit, though:

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As has been recently said:

"The Denon DL-103 enjoys to right since 1962 (!) Cult status with innumerable music lover. In spite of the bargain entry, this system resides almost always in very expensive and ausgefuchsten units. For the Japanese broadcast conceives, conquered this hochaktuelle classic, style just in heavy, robust tone arms e.g. a SME 3012-R since then the entire world. The DL-103 is with security of one of the tonal most balanced cartridges, that there is. It plays warmly, mightily, voluminous, incredible dynamically, enormously bass festival and in addition with a means area and high tone area breach loose subsequent itself."

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"As has been recently said" indeed! Yeah, I couldn't agree more :lol:

The stuff in the second link is a bit too 'home-made' looking for me. I'm not sure I'm into strapping brass pipe caps to the end of my tonearm. I'd far rather have one of Thruno's lovely polished solid brass designs!

Marco.

Hmm...now I just need to remember where I put that whale oil I had hanging around, and Marco needs to recall how J7 flushed out and re-oiled his bearing. lol

LOL. Indeed, but that made a big difference and doesn't look butt-ugly! ;)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Hey, you could have grown a big bushy beard by the time ESco have taken to do the mods on your cartridge! :eyebrows:

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Well, in their defence I feel obliged to point out it's a very small and very busy outfit.

On a positive note; when I've used them in the past I've never had ANY complaints whatsoever about their craftsmanship. I'm sure it will be worth the wait. :)

I'm also interested to see how these retips sound

a few months ago i got my hands on an old 1962 shure M3D, they are quite rare broadcasting mm cartridge, and where in the same price league as an spu, it has an orginal stylus, but it is damaged..

About a month ago i got hold af a jelco replacement, and it has taken some breaking in and setting up..
but i've got there, it produces a big smooth musical sound now, records sound like music, not fantastic detail but very good, more listenable than the kesiki or the lyra i had before it.

it needed alot of mass, i have it on the fidelity research arm, on a thorens 124
i've had to add even more mass to the headshell..

i have been pondering about getting the original sylus retipped

must say i'm very impressed as it is...

steve

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shian7

Well, in their defence I feel obliged to point out it's a very small and very busy outfit.

On a positive note; when I've used them in the past I've never had ANY complaints whatsoever about their craftsmanship. I'm sure it will be worth the wait. :)

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Yes they are very busy, especially with this new 103 mod, and I feel guilty for saying what I said. It's just I've have had two separate delivery dates come and go now :( Here's to another evening of CD replay. :drugs:

Hi Scoobs,
yeah, you clocked me good and I used to be no-vice on the Mana forum which is where Marco and I first met. He´s responsible for the dirty great 6 gram glob of Blutak I have on my Ittok ´tho Thrunobulaxx has since made me a rather spiffing brass weight for my headshell which I haven´t yet fitted ´cos my arm is about to travel tae Glasgae ta see yon J7 for some Kondo stuff - if the effect of the Cardas rewire on my mate´s Ittok is owt to go by, the SUT, whichever one I finally go for, is up for a kick in the ass.
Will report soon.
Chris

Hi Steve,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SPS

a few months ago i got my hands on an old 1962 shure M3D, they are quite rare broadcasting mm cartridge, and where in the same price league as an spu, it has an orginal stylus, but it is damaged..

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Like this? http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...3-04-06238.jpg :)

They're excellent old things and have soul, emotion, and realistic 'tone' in spades, similar to the DL-103 and SPU - exactly what is missing with about 95% of modern cartridges. Any true vinyl aficionado should do themselves a favour and hear one with a suitable turntable and tonearm. For a similar thing try a Shure SC35C, which is the modern equivalent (the body is unfortunately plastic but the generator and stylus assembly, though detachable, are similar):

http://www.bswusa.com//product_popup...shur_sc35c.jpg

It's touted these days as a 'DJ/scratch cartridge', but mounted on the right turntable and arm, it can sound truly magical (it also has bass to die for) - and it's cheap as chips, as with the DL-103 for very similar reasons (economies of scale).

Quote:

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About a month ago i got hold af a jelco replacement, and it has taken some breaking in and setting up..
but i've got there, it produces a big smooth musical sound now, records sound like music, not fantastic detail but very good, more listenable than the kesiki or the lyra i had before it.

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Lyras are clinical, frigid, things in comparison. Jonathan Carr seems like a lovely chap, but I hate the way he voices his cartridges!!

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it needed alot of mass, i have it on the fidelity research arm, on a thorens 124
i've had to add even more mass to the headshell..

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For an elegant solution, since you've got a detachable headshell arm, use one of these - 18g mass and with almost zero resonant properties:

http://www.audiocubes2.com/brand/Aud...ead_Shell.html

But the cost might be an anathema to your D.I.Y sensibilities ;)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Shian7

Well, in their defence I feel obliged to point out it's a very small and very busy outfit.

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Don't get me wrong, Mike, I know where you're coming from but I have to disagree. I run my own business from home as a 'one-man band' and have in the past taken on more work than I can realistically handle. Thing is, it's ultimately counter-productive because when you can't deliver orders placed by customers in the timescale agreed then in the long term it's doing your business more harm than good as customers will get fed up waiting and in future go elsewhere.

There is simply no excuse for an established company like ESco, who've been trading for a number of years now, taking months (in Scoobs' case) to deliver orders. You take on more staff, move to bigger premises, or do whatever you have to do to guarantee an efficient service. If you're getting enough business (which by all accounts ESco are) then you should be able to afford the cost of higher overheads - even if you have to increase your prices slightly most customers would rather that than having to wait months for their goods!

Much as I sympathise with running a business myself, and being under pressure to deliver products often within very tight timescales, there is simply no excuse for such production delays. I certainly wouldn't give ESco my business, no matter how good the job was, for that reason because all they're doing is trying to make as much profit as possible at the inconvenience of the customer, hoping they'll put up with it, instead of investing profits made in more manpower, machinery and/or bigger premises to cope with the demand for their services and thus pass on increased production efficiency to the customer.

That's a no-no in my book!

Marco.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marco

You take on more staff, move to bigger premises, or do whatever you have to do to guarantee an efficient service. If you're getting enough business (which by all accounts ESco are) then you should be able to afford the cost of higher overheads - even if you have to increase your prices slightly most customers would rather that than having to wait months for their goods!

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Well...

No!.... In this sort of business I would maintain that you do NOTHING that may compromise quality.

We ain't talking about quantity here... sorry matey. ;)

I would much rather wait for a high quality product than have some 'mass produced' tat sent out in no time...

Yes of course I agree, but you can have both by putting into place whatever is necessary to do things right in the first place... I.E, employ more staff with the necessary skills to maintain product quality and move to bigger premises! It's not rocket science ;)

Marco.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marco

Yes of course I agree, but you can have both by putting into place whatever is necessary to do things right in the first place... I.E, employ more staff with the necessary skills and move to bigger premises! It's not rocket science ;)

Marco.

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Ah, but that's the crux of the matter...

This sort of stuff is nothing less than an art...

You don't find folk like that at the local job centre! :eyebrows:

Seriously though... where the hell do you find these sort of craftsman skills?... Think of the likes of Koetsu etc! we're talking about a very rare skill-set here boyo! ;)

As usual, matey, seek and ye shall find! There are enough companies around making cartridges so there must also be enough people around who know how to re-tip them!

You can also train people, too, you know... How do you think the ones who are doing the job now learned? ;)

The bottom line is ESco are not offering an efficient service and IMO that's not acceptable.

Marco.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marco

As usual, matey, seek and ye shall find! There are enough companies around making cartridges so there must also be enough people around who know how to re-tip them! ;)

The bottom line is ESco are not offering an efficient service and IMO that's not acceptable.

Marco.

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Bullshit!!!!

Sorry bud... try looking!

Go-on... give us all a list ;)

Well we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, mate. I'm not in the business so how would I know where to find the right people? But ESco are, so they should! The bottom line is there's NO WAY I would EVER wait months to get my cartridge back from re-tipping! F*ck that for a game of soldiers! :lol:

Marco.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marco

You can also train people, too, you know... How do you think the ones who are doing the job now learned? ;)

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Picture this....

You are are company who provides a service, say, plumber, sparky, joiner, picture framer, telecoms installer... etc..

You train them for a couple of years and they think 'I can do this on my own' and do so... what is the impact on your business?... not that much I'd guess.

You are a very rare and specialised company, of which there are only two or three in the country who provides this service and you spend a couple of years training them and they think 'I can do this on my own'!... and you lose 30-50% of your business!

Errr....

Not necessarily, mate. I'm afraid that's a rather simplistic, narrow-minded view. Not everyone wants to run their own business and take on the risks that go with it. Some people are quite happy to work for others and be paid a regular wage. There will always be 'do-ers' and 'followers' on this Earth and that principle applies to people who re-tip cartridges the same as in any other business... ;)

Like I said before the fact is, ESco *could*do something about it if they wanted to, but have deliberately chosen not to. Good luck to you (and others) if you have the patience to wait so long to get your cartridges back. Anyway, as I said, I'm not into re-tips for reasons specified, so thank goodness I'll never have to use their services!

Fingers crossed though that Scoobs gets a good result with his :)

Marco.

Okey Dokey...

I hope you don't want to wait more than a few minutes for your Slatedeck! :lol:


Quality comes at a price.... sometimes the price is 'time'! ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marco

Hi Steve,



Like this? http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...3-04-06238.jpg :)

They're excellent old things and have soul, emotion, and realistic 'tone' in spades, similar to the DL-103 and SPU - exactly what is missing with about 95% of modern cartridges. Any true vinyl aficionado should do themselves a favour and hear one with a suitable turntable and tonearm. For a similar thing try a Shure SC35C, which is the modern equivalent (the body is unfortunately plastic but the generator and stylus assembly, though detachable, are similar):

http://www.bswusa.com//product_popup...shur_sc35c.jpg

It's touted these days as a 'DJ/scratch cartridge', but mounted on the right turntable and arm, it can sound truly magical (it also has bass to die for) - and it's cheap as chips, as with the DL-103 for very similar reasons (economies of scale).



Lyras are clinical, frigid, things in comparison. Jonathan Carr seems like a lovely chap, but I hate the way he voices his cartridges!!



For an elegant solution, since you've got a detachable headshell arm, use one of these - 18g mass and with almost zero resonant properties:

http://www.audiocubes2.com/brand/Aud...ead_Shell.html

But the cost might be an anathema for your D.I.Y sensibilities ;)

Marco.

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Thats the one Marco, the very same

The headshell has a coin blu-tacked on.. working a treat.. if i keep the cartrige on full time i may invest in one of those 15gram headshells..

its funny, i quite liked the lyra but i supose i've also changed my veiw of what I like since then.. I will go back to the keski in a week or so.. and see how it sounds.. it does detail in spades.. but i am now playing records.. something I'd stopped doing.. and really enjoying the music.

I may bring it to owston ..

steve

Mikey,

Nah, of course I won't mind waiting for that. But the difference is Darren's upfront about the timescale required to do the job. He hasn't quoted me 2 weeks to do the job (or whatever) and then actually taken two months to finish it, which appears to be along the lines of what ESco have done with Scoobs.

I don't mind waiting 2 months to get a job done to my satisfaction, providing I've been told in the first place that's how long it will take. What I will *NOT* tolerate is being told one thing and it ending up being something very different. Furniture and carpet stores, for example, do this regularly when you order goods, and many other places too, and it's totally inexcusable. In business you deliver what you promise - end of. It's how I've always run my business and why through sheer bloody hard work and a dedication to perfection I now don't have a mortgage to pay... ;)

Marco.

LOL! :lolsign:


Bugger off!.. Scoobs is having a custom made Sapphire cantilevered cartridge, not a sodding sofa! :sorry:


Or a custom made picture of Elvis! :D



HeHe... Time to 'leave it' I think! ;)

Yes, that's why I said "for example", ya dafty! ;)

How long is this silly and pointless argument going to last? We obviously have a very different mindset on this. I'm off tomorrow so can stay up and type bollocks all night if necessary :lol:

:lolsign:

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Shian7

HeHe... Time to 'leave it' I think! ;)

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Ya missed this bit ya knob! ;)

Nope, ya wee jobby, I didn't! :lol:

But why should you get the last word? :eyebrows:

:ner:

Marco.

Coz I'm 'harder' than you! :bum:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SPS

Thats the one Marco, the very same

The headshell has a coin blu-tacked on.. working a treat.. if i keep the cartrige on full time i may invest in one of those 15gram headshells..

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You should, Steve. I use one with my DL-103R and Pro and it sounds fantastic. It's undoubtedly the best detachable headshell I've ever used, and over the years I've had a few!

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its funny, i quite liked the lyra but i supose i've also changed my veiw of what I like since then.. I will go back to the keski in a week or so.. and see how it sounds.. it does detail in spades.. but i am now playing records.. something I'd stopped doing.. and really enjoying the music.

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It is funny because a Lyra and an M3D are about as far apart sonically as you can get with cartridges, but the fact that you're just playing records now and enjoying music says it all...

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I may bring it to owston ..

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Please do. If it's on a detachable headshell I can listen to it on my 1210 :)

I'll also have the LH-18 with me so we can try your M3D on that if we get time.

Marco.

Oh gawd blimey!...what have I started. Can we leave this now please.
Isn't the azimuth slightly out on this?
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/e...epa/nipple.jpg

Seems fine, but I'll just have to 'tweak' it to find out... :gig:

Where on earth did you find that image - Googling for tits or 1210s? :lol:

Marco.

Lol. I found it whilst browsing off the 103 mod page earlier.

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Originally Posted by Chris

Hi Scoobs,
yeah, you clocked me good and I used to be no-vice on the Mana forum which is where Marco and I first met.

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Hi Chris,

I had no idea you were 'no-vice' - small world! :)

Do you miss the old Mana forum? I've tried to get Mr Pig to join but he's given up now on forums. Mind you that was about a year ago when I was running the infamous 'Hi-fi Corner', so if he sees this place now he might change his mind, and then again with Mikey's and my shenanigans here tonight he might not :lolsign:

Do you have contacts for some of the old crew?

Marco.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marco

Interesting link (the first one). The CineMag looks like another viable SUT option.

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The CineMag works great and is very musical. It only cost me $150 to build but it took me six months to get around to it. That's part of the reason I don't mind paying Jim in the other thread.

Hagerman Audio Labs makes a step-up built around the Cinemags with a ton of loading options but he charges $649 for it.

http://www.haglabs.com/stepup.html

Marco, grazie mille, for all your advices on the step up for my 103 Pro. Now I'm on search of the A23 because I'm too curious how it sounds together with the cartridge from Denon.
Ciao from Rome, Piero

Hi Marco,
Yes, I do miss the Mana Forum ´tho´of course "life was very different then" - and whatever anyone says, I don´t foresee ever removing my Phase 5 from under my Linn in fact one day I might even scout round for a couple of Soundstages to go to 7.
Pity no-one has taken up on a "New Mana" or at least JW could have pointed to a replacement material for the "balanced boards" - I have mislaid 2 of mine for my speaker bases and don´t know what best to use.
Also a shame about Mr. Pig - he was always a good read and a mine of suggestions for aging beginners like myself. I do see threads from familiar posters on different forums from time to time - even Parry (or was it Kilroy)? "Nuff said.
All the best,
Chris

Blimey, so many things to disagree with Marco on this thread :lolsign:

I still find it very strange with people declaring the Lyras to be clinical. I've never found this in my setup. I've certainly never heard bass as well textured and with as much depth and detail, both in my own setup and several others I've been to visit (in bake offs otr at friends). I always welcome going back to listening to the Dorian and it's great even sound.

Listening to something like Squarepusher where the bass is making the walls tremble always puts a smile on my face and for me it;s still by far the best cartridge I've used for claissical music, it gets the seperation of instruments and scale spot on. Of course this is just personal preferences.

when I purchased the Orbe it had a DL103 on the end of the tonearm and I really couldn't wait to get it off. I really hated the thing. Of course I'm a bit more aware that a Rega based arm isn't the best to hear this cart now but judging from what people on the firums were saying at the time you wouldn't think that.

As for the DL304 (and DL301ii I also own), both these carts benefit hugely from going through a step-up. I've owned a DL304 and it needs a real quality active set up to get the most out of it, I've heard it doing much better things through a step up. The problem I have with the DL304 and DL301ii is they lack dynamics, imo, especially when compared to the Lyra cart and even comparing both to a Goldring Elite you realise how soft the bass performance from these carts are - even through a step up.

I keep meaning to revisit the DL103, just for curiosity more than anything, now realising that more weight would need to be added to the Technoarm. What I find so strange about this is people like Arthur from Funk using DL103 carts in his demos with just a bog standard RB300. He always seems happy enough with it.

Hi Dave,

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Originally Posted by dmckean

The CineMag works great and is very musical. It only cost me $150 to build but it took me six months to get around to it. That's part of the reason I don't mind paying Jim in the other thread.

Hagerman Audio Labs makes a step-up built around the Cinemags with a ton of loading options but he charges $649 for it.

http://www.haglabs.com/stepup.html

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Thanks for that. I think I might put all these links for good SUTs into a thread in 'The Artist's Palette' for useful future reference. That way people will know where to find them easily should they be looking to buy an SUT :)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Historicus

Marco, grazie mille, for all your advices on the step up for my 103 Pro. Now I'm on search of the A23 because I'm too curious how it sounds together with the cartridge from Denon.
Ciao from Rome, Piero

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Prego, Piero. Non è niente :)

The best thing for you to do is email Tone Imports and find out who your nearest dealer is; then order one from there. I doubt you'll find any for sale on Ebay or second-hand.

Marco.

Hi Chris,

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Yes, I do miss the Mana Forum ´tho´of course "life was very different then" - and whatever anyone says, I don´t foresee ever removing my Phase 5 from under my Linn in fact one day I might even scout round for a couple of Soundstages to go to 7.

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Indeed; life was very different then, and there's a lot you can do now that perhaps you didn't know about before! I'll explain... I still have all my 'Mana' supports - *but* only my stainless steel 6-tier rack and speaker stands are 'genuine' Mana. I sold all my 'official' racks and Stages for good money and got identical replicas made for a fraction of the price from a local metal fabricator. If you get it done right they sound identical to the stuff JW sold, in fact better because you get it made in non-magnetic stainless steel instead of magnetic angle-iron! I've got tons of the stuff now, which would have cost me a small fortune from Mana... :eyebrows:

I've got contacts for all the stuff you need - powder coaters, glazers, balanced boards, spikes, etc. PM me and we can chat about getting you a couple of Stages and some balanced boards ;)

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Pity no-one has taken up on a "New Mana" or at least JW could have pointed to a replacement material for the "balanced boards" - I have mislaid 2 of mine for my speaker bases and don´t know what best to use.

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I've dealt with the latter issue - you have no worries on that score. With regard to the "New Mana" thing, JW and I discussed starting the business again under a new format but it never got off the ground before we ended up falling out - long story! I've thought about doing it myself, as I have all the right contacts, but I just haven't had the time with running my own art business and now this place. I know I could make it work and be profitable but perhaps some other time. I don't mind getting the odd few bits done for people, though.

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Also a shame about Mr. Pig - he was always a good read and a mine of suggestions for aging beginners like myself. I do see threads from familiar posters on different forums from time to time - even Parry (or was it Kilroy)? "Nuff said.

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I'm confident I'll get the piglet on here someday. There are also a few of the old crew on pfm, so perhaps they'll find their way here in due course.

Marco.

Hi Griffo,

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Blimey, so many things to disagree with Marco on this thread

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Well it'd be right bloody boring if everyone agreed with me all the time, so disagree away! :eyebrows:

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I still find it very strange with people declaring the Lyras to be clinical. I've never found this in my setup. I've certainly never heard bass as well textured and with as much depth and detail, both in my own setup and several others I've been to visit (in bake offs otr at friends). I always welcome going back to listening to the Dorian and it's great even sound.

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It's simply a matter of context. Don't get me wrong, if Lyras are your 'thing' they'll do the job better than most. I've owned a couple (a Helikon and Argo i) so I know exactly what they do. The thing is when you get a 103R or 103Pro working optimally (and I mean optimally) they just sound utterly sublime in every area, particularly in the bass, which trust me makes Lyras sound positively anaemic! The only area they lack slightly in is absolute detail retrieval at higher frequencies. If you want to dissect every nuance on a recording with forensic precision then you need a cartridge with a good fine-line or VDH stylus. However, when a 103R or Pro have been optimised to their maximum potential everything else is spot on in the most beguiling way.

The standard 103 is not in the same league for a variety of reasons so I will omit it from the discussion. The 'R', Pro, or 'SA' versions are where it's at with 103s.

Trouble is, getting a 103R or Pro to sound right (as it was intended by the manufacturer) is both difficult and expensive. First of all, you need a top-notch direct-drive or high-mass belt-drive T/T to hear it at its best (bouncy decks or Regas just won't do) and, most crucially, a high-mass arm with a detachable headshell from a similar era to when the 103 itself was produced (think Fidelity Research, SME 3012, if you have a deck big enough to take it, Denons own arms, AT broadcast, etc). It only works on the 1210's arm once the counterweight balance and existing headshell have been upgraded to something which adds more mass.

Once all that's been attended to, you then need to buy a suitable MC step-up transformer which loads the 103 correctly and provides the correct impedance and gain, and then run it through a top-notch MM valve phono stage, if you wish to maximise its capabilities. The last bit is optional but preferable.

Now tell me, how many people do you know with 103s that've gone to all that bother? The fact is the majority of people using 103s are only hearing a fraction of its potential, and it is *this* that it gets unfairly judged on. The 103 may initially be cheap to buy because it's made by a huge Japanese company like Denon, but getting it to perform optimally sure as hell isn't!

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when I purchased the Orbe it had a DL103 on the end of the tonearm and I really couldn't wait to get it off. I really hated the thing. Of course I'm a bit more aware that a Rega based arm isn't the best to hear this cart now but judging from what people on the firums were saying at the time you wouldn't think that.

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Exactly. Like I said, that's the problem. The 103 just isn't meant for set-ups like that. Cartridge and tonearm fashions have changed dramatically since the 103's era and so you simply can't use it with most of today's ancillaries if you have any notion of hearing it properly.

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As for the DL304 (and DL301ii I also own), both these carts benefit hugely from going through a step-up. I've owned a DL304 and it needs a real quality active set up to get the most out of it, I've heard it doing much better things through a step up. The problem I have with the DL304 and DL301ii is they lack dynamics, imo, especially when compared to the Lyra cart and even comparing both to a Goldring Elite you realise how soft the bass performance from these carts are - even through a step up.

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I don't doubt that the 304 needs quality ancillaries to get it working optimally, but most people I know who use them get very good results simply running them through good quality active MC stages. It tends to be more the 103 and DL-S1 which are talked about in conjunction with SUTs. I suspect that Denons own models are produced more with the 103 in mind than the 304. However, I believe that all low output MCs perform better through specifically-matched SUTs than through even the best active MC stages. There is simply less noise that way, and noise is the main enemy where phono stages and moving coil cartridges are concerned.

Also, your DL301 sounds nothing like an optimally set-up 103R or Pro, so until you hear what the latter sounds like (perhaps by visiting me sometime?) you'll never be able to appreciate what I'm getting at and why I think Lyras sound so 'frigid' in comparison ;)

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I keep meaning to revisit the DL103, just for curiosity more than anything, now realising that more weight would need to be added to the Technoarm.

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My advice is only do it if you're willing to go the whole hog as I've described. Any 'halfway house' measures will only result in disappointment and ultimately the wrong impression about what a 103R or Pro are truly capable of.

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What I find so strange about this is people like Arthur from Funk using DL103 carts in his demos with just a bog standard RB300. He always seems happy enough with it.

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Yes, I know, but Arthur is Arthur. I know him quite well - he's a lovely chap and an extremely talented designer, but at shows his demonstrations - how shall I put it - are not set-up for ultimate sound quality... He uses fairly bog-standard ancillaries simply to show differences between his deck and a full Linn one, which are always readily apparent in my experience; the 103 fitted on the Rega 'does the job' in that sense. You'll notice that whenever the Sapphire is demonstrated by a Funk Firm dealer there are no 103s anywhere in sight! :)

Marco.

Marco,
When I went looking for a new cart to have a play with I refused to go near the usual suspects with regards to forums. I tend to find forums, especially on our side of the pond, tend follow fashions quite strongly only for them to slag off the component they raved about so much previously.

I did a LOT of research in to carts and found a lot of 'happy' DL103 owners (and not just the extended models you mention) were doing a lot more with them then simply slapping them on the end of a Rega of Linn arm. this really opened my eyes up to the whole hifi thing. the other pattern I noticed was how many serios vinly lovers, and I mean very serious, hating all forms of digital playback, all pretty much ignored any epensive cart. So many seemed to be happy with the cheaper end of the market - the baby Benz Micro bing particularly popular.

I chose the DL301 for various reasons. Their popularity in Japan, where they simply don't bother with the DL304, it;s stylus profile, the exceptional mid band and tonal balance. It has an amazingly natural sounding treble.

I have the extra heacy weight that comes with the Technoarm, so I would just need to add more weight at the headshell end but I may well go out and get a DL103R at some point. I have the Denon AU-300LC which, as you mention, get matched up to these carts quite a lot.

It may be a interesting few months.