Which Tannoys, folks?

:(

That's the thing with Tannoys generally. No two pairs sound the same in any two systems due to condition, cabinet choice, amp matching and in-room response.

What they are capable of and what you may hear when visiting someone who has them could be light years apart....that's the learning I've taken after listening to quite a few.

Everything can be improved upon, even the best of the best, and personal tastes vary meaning that they won't be to everyone's tastes. Its doesn't bother me personally what other people think as having heard well implemented Tannoys, there's no way I'd now go back to using anything else. They're not perfect, and like everything in life, what you put in (in terms of learning and effort) will pay dividends with them.

The only advice I can offer to anyone curious is to listen to as many pairs as possible, do your homework and choose carefully if you decide you'd like some. The amp is the only other headache as what works for one person in one room may not work for another. Room size is less important than you think as their's a DC to suit all room sizes (the modern 10 inch units and the older 12 inch units will do small very well).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by John

Yes far to long perhaps sometime in spring
I think people like us the systems we have are constantly developing its just the way we wired up, its a journey without end

---

Lol... I can't see the core components changing in my system anytime soon, and indeed they haven't since you last visited (apart from the bits that make now up the Techy), but how the system receives power from the mains has been further optimised, and the mains and signal leads themselves upgraded, along with the copper amp and Croft being further, fairly extensively modified, resulting in pretty fundamental sonic improvements across the board, and the Lockwoods sounding 'naughtier' and more frightening than ever!! :trust: :eek: :fingers: :hairmetal:

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marco

Hi Andy,



Fair enough, but it wasn't mine, when I heard those ones that chap was selling one time, a few years ago on AoS, after his father had died and left him the speakers. Remember the ones? I hadn't heard of BTH speakers then and you told me all about them, and also the chap who was selling them when he joined AoS.

I was interested in buying the BTHs, and so drove to see him, taking my Croft and Copper amp with me. They were pretty good, but to my ears, nowhere near as good as my 15 MGs. However, maybe those weren't the best examples? :)

Marco.

---

Marco, the ones you looked at were DC12's sometimes known a QA14's. Although they are very good in the mid range they are not in the same league as the K10A or your 15MG's as they only have a FR of 50 to 14kHz.

The K10A uses the same cone and Basket as the Western Electric 4181a and Jensen M20 with a BTH E5a derived compression driver through the middle. The K10A bass notes certainly have more clarity and speed than the 15" Tannoys and reveal more of the subtle nuances.

http://www.hifido.co.jp/KWwe/G0204/E...0926-39093-00/

http://soundup.ru/index.php?option=c...rs&directory=2

Hi Andy,

Quote:

---

Marco, the ones you looked at were DC12's sometimes known a QA14's. Although they are very good in the mid range they are not in the same league as the K10A or your 15MG's as they only have a FR of 50 to 14kHz.

The K10A uses the same cone and Basket as the Western Electric 4181a and Jensen M20 with a BTH E5a derived compression driver through the middle.

---

Ah, thanks for the clarification. Those BTHs look well cool!

Quote:

---

The K10A bass notes certainly have more clarity and speed than the 15" Tannoys and reveal more of the subtle nuances.

---

That situation may change, though, once one has upgraded the stock Tannoy crossovers with the highest quality parts, and hard-wired them into the 'flat' position, removing the switches, as I've done. That resulted in a MASSIVE sonic improvement!

Trust me, there is now no shortage of clarity or speed in the bass, nor the revealing of subtle nuances, with the Lockwoods, therefore it would be interesting now to do a comparison between them and the K10As! :)

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rare Bird

And some of us have tiny rooms that won't house a pair of sky scrapers the inability to crank the volume up is a no no anyway :unfair:

---

Well, I dunno about you Andr'e, but my listening room is about 11 feet by 10 feet and my Tannoy Cheviots work just fine in there (not to mention the other two pairs of Tannoys in the room too and the twenty five odd decks, amps & CD players, etc.).


Geoff.

But im in the living room, all the sofa, TV, records & all that crap doesnt leave me much room

How many rooms has your flat got, dude? Is there no chance of converting one of them into a dedicated listening room, or is the living room the only decent-sized room you've got? :)

Marco.

I have a spare back room that ive decorated out, but i can't position the speakers right without my symetrical OCD kicking in :lol:

Lol - what are you like! :D

Marco.

Regarding the operating frequency range of the Celestion Ditton 66. Here's a scan of the B&K response graph along with general spec details:

http://i48.tinypic.com/14bthkl.jpg

Hope you can all read it OK.

Ignore the vertical cut-off at approx 27kHz on the response graph. The machine would have been set to go only to that point, the actual top end extension of the HF2000 tweeter would continue past there.

You don't see modern speakers quoted for their harmonic distortion figures very often. I wonder why?:eyebrows:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by walpurgis

Regarding the operating frequency range of the Celestion Ditton 66. Here's a scan of the B&K response graph along with general spec details:

http://i48.tinypic.com/14bthkl.jpg

Hope you can all read it OK.

Ignore the vertical cut-off at approx 27kHz on the response graph. The machine would have been set to go only to that point, the actual top end extension of the HF2000 tweeter would continue past there.

---

Also, from elsewhere on the brochure:

Quote:

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The HF2000 super-tweeter reproduces the upper region of the audio spectrum, functioning from 5 kHz to well beyond audibility.

---

Kinda proves what I was saying... There's defo more top-end extension on the 66s than on my 15" MGs - I ain't deef! ;)

Marco.

The axial response is 'textbook' too, very good indeed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by walpurgis

Regarding the operating frequency range of the Celestion Ditton 66. Here's a scan of the B&K response graph along with general spec details:

http://i48.tinypic.com/14bthkl.jpg

Hope you can all read it OK.

Ignore the vertical cut-off at approx 27kHz on the response graph. The machine would have been set to go only to that point, the actual top end extension of the HF2000 tweeter would continue past there.

---

Sensitivity is lower than I expected. Usually figures are quoted at 1 Watt input :scratch:

Marco:

I have an advert from Hi Fi News Aug 1973 it has the Specs of the Ditton 66's

I don't have a review on the 66, nor the 662 except for a positive comment in one of the HiFi Choice summary reviews - a bit too expensive for a "recommendation" but nowt untoward. The simpler but directly related 552's DID get a recommendation and their response isn't so different from the one above.

I do remember we traded in some 552's and I'm sure there was a scrappy pair of 662's come in as well. They were very good indeed and far smoother and less coloured than most non KEF's around in the early 70's. The taller and slimmer boxes also confirm the excellent dispersion they have.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by walpurgis

The axial response is 'textbook' too, very good indeed.

---

Hi

any axis responce for the ditton 44's

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dantheman91

Marco:

I have an advert from Hi Fi News Aug 1973 it has the Specs of the Ditton 66's

---

Nice one, Dan - much appreciated... I'll add it to my collection :)

As everyone can see, the 66s, on paper, are rather impressive, and I can confirm that when you hear them, on the end of a good system, that impressiveness is even more impressive! :eyebrows:

A very nice alternative to 15" MGs (or any Tannoy DCs), yes indeedy.....


http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/4737/66s4.jpg


http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/8488/66s3.jpg


Marco.

I'll have a look see if i have any reviews.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marco

Nice one, Dan - much appreciated... I'll add it to my collection :)

As everyone can see, the 66s, on paper, are rather impressive, and I can confirm that when you hear them, on the end of a good system, that impressiveness is even more impressive! :eyebrows:

A very nice alternative to 15" MGs (or any Tannoy DCs), yes indeedy.....


http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/4737/66s4.jpg


Marco.

---

Hi

No Problem. I love advertisements like this. I am still listening to my ditton 44's they just don't make them like they used to the craftsmanship and engineering thats for the time is outstanding there built to last no like today's. Some people slate the 44's but at the end of the day the play music simple as.

Coolio! :)

Paul, sorry about the thread drift!

Marco.

Don't worry :lol:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dantheman91

Hi

any axis responce for the ditton 44's

---

I can give you scans of the Ditton 44 brochure.

Just deposit £120 into my PayPal account. (JOKING!)

You are welcome if you want them really.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by walpurgis

I can give you scans of the Ditton 44 brochure.

Just deposit £120 into my PayPal account. (JOKING!)

You are welcome if you want them really.

---

Hi

Yes Please :)

Right folks, to get things back on track ;) ;) nudge nudge


Have ordered a set of these for each cabinet:

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/images/cmc858muagl.gif

CMC pure OFC silver plated binding posts....yum.


Have decided to keep the standard cross-over but just replace the caps with a like for like value polypropylene cap replacement.

Any suggestions for the best without breaking the bank? Hovland, Jensen, budget ones? I won't risk lifting the original solder tracks as they're not really designed for re-soldering too many times so instead plan to snip the existing capacitor legs leaving a stub which I'll clean up with emery then solder the new capacitor legs to these using crocodile clips to hold the two together and act as a heat sink.

Clarity Cap are good imho and not pricey.

Hi Paul,

I use Clarity Cap MRs in mine, with excellent results (just depends if you can get the right values, though). Also many people modifying Tannoy crossovers have had excellent results with the Ansar 'Glasshouse' types:

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/ansar.html or here: http://www.cricklewoodelectronics.co...me.php?cat=155

Superb sound, and don't break the bank either! They also look a little more 'vintage' than others :)

Marco.

Thanks guys, I'll check out which ones I need although I'm told that the large one near the inductor is in a rating no longer available, so I may have to wire two or three in parallel to get the right overall value (by summing the collective capacitance values of each). Looking at using polys, and in addition to the above, was told to check ouy the CPC caps (part of Farnell)

Some preogress today.

Drivers removed and cones/cage cleaned up, then carefully packaged ready for Lockwoods.

Crossovers removed and 4 pin plug for connection to the drive units. It seems Tannoy have used 0.5mm diameter copper lighting flex (twin and earth) for the speaker connections! Copper by pins was corroded as were pins so all that will be binned and pins cleaned up. Nothing wrong per se in using twin and earth providing its 1.5mm OFC or tinned copper. I'd rather have speaker cable such as the Van Damme Blue series, but my local DIY store sells 1.5mm OFC twin and earth and tinned cables, so I'll replace the lighting flex with something more substantial.


Next was the crossovers which looked to be in good shape. Caps all look ok with no leaks etc but would benefit from change. One thing that stood out was the flimsy wiring from the poor quality speaker binding posts to the PCB, so this was de-soldered:

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/...ps1891e494.jpg

and replaced with some 2.5mm section Talk 3 cable. The Talk 3 is the Red/White cable. The original wiring is Blue/Brown and looks to be some snipped off lengths of twin and earth (0.5mm):

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/...psf05c004e.jpg

I haven't yet worked out how to get the cross-over chassis apart without de-soldering the inductors, which is a real pain. In theory, I could simply remove the existing caps and if very dexterous and careful may be able to solder in some new ones, but looks too fiddly without taking the chassis apart (inductor plastic housings are glued to the top half of the chassis whilst their wiring is soldered into the bottom half consisting of the PCB).

Perhaps its me being thick and someone can show me an easier way to do this! Also, I'm having trouble reading the capacitor values. Anyone got a circuit diagram with the values marked on it? (315/8 HPD crossover)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marco

Hi Paul,

I use Clarity Cap MRs in mine, with excellent results (just depends if you can get the right values, though). Also many people modifying Tannoy crossovers have had excellent results with the Ansar 'Glasshouse' types:

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/ansar.html or here: http://www.cricklewoodelectronics.co...me.php?cat=155

Superb sound, and don't break the bank either! They also look a little more 'vintage' than others :)

Marco.

---

I started with the standard Claritys but later had Nick Gorham update with the ESAs, well worth the extra few bob. Hadn't considered the MRs :scratch:

More progress today on the 2nd crossover and wiring:


This was the state of the wiring from the crossover to the existing 4 pin HPD connector:

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/...ps751f6186.jpg

Junked the 0.5mm lighting flex, re-tinned the 4 pin plug and soldered a new better quality 1.5mm conductor size cable between crossover and 4-pin connector. Here it is all tidied up:

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/...ps45c49aa0.jpg

Also designed the new plinth, selected the timber, drew up the cutting list, marked up and cut the timber needed:

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/...ps3da55b7b.jpg

I couldn't find a decent matching Teak veneer for the final finish anywhere (like rocking horse stuff is the original veneer used) so have selected a lovely sheet of Sepele which should be with me later in the week. Got some casters too, so once I have the stands completed I'll post some more pics.

Really going for it Paul ... and you haven't even heard them yet ;)

There's no stopping an express train Tom :thumbsup:

Doesn't really matter in some ways what they sound like as the whole aim for me is to bring back to life a classic set of British designed and manufactured loudspeakers, hopefully making some improvements as I go along!

One thing's for sure, and that's that they'll be about as good a set of 12 inch Vintage Tannoys as you can find when everything is done.

I'm also working on a super-tweeter design for them (DIY of course) but that's on the back burner for now as I want to get the main speakers completed and up and running.

Looking good so far, Paul! :)

Quote:

---

I'm also working on a super-tweeter design for them (DIY of course)...

---

:eyebrows: :eyebrows:

Were you influenced at all by recent discussions on that subject?

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marco

Looking good so far, Paul! :)



:eyebrows: :eyebrows:

Were you influenced at all by recent discussions on that subject?

Marco.

---

Nope, not at all Marco. It stems back to before I bought the Turnberrys when research showed some benefits of using supertweeters to enhance harmonics which was said to improve overall presentation. Ever the sceptic, most commericial brands are way over priced so I decided then that if I were to try some, they'd have to be DIY. A fellow enthusiast and electronic engineer recommended some units along with the values to try for the caps on a basic crossover. It is something I'll get round to but not for a few months.

Hi Tom,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by montesquieu

I started with the standard Claritys but later had Nick Gorham update with the ESAs, well worth the extra few bob. Hadn't considered the MRs :scratch:

---

The MRs are quite an improvement on the ESAs, due to the unique design features of the former, in terms of addressing the issue of mechanical resonances. The white paper written on the subject makes interesting reading:

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/pdf/claritycapmr.pdf

I've compared the MRs against the ESAs, and there is no question that the former offer a significant sonic improvement. If you can get the right values in MRs, then you've got a nice upgrade waiting there, should you wish to pursue it ;)

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reffc

Nope, not at all Marco. It stems back to before I bought the Turnberrys when research showed some benefits of using supertweeters to enhance harmonics which was said to improve overall presentation. Ever the sceptic, most commericial brands are way over priced so I decided then that if I were to try some, they'd have to be DIY. A fellow enthusiast and electronic engineer recommended some units along with the values to try for the caps on a basic crossover. It is something I'll get round to but not for a few months.

---

That's cool, Paul. I definitely think that if done right, and integrated properly, there is mileage in the use of super-tweeters with Tannoy DCs :)

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marco

Hi Tom,



The MRs are quite an improvement on the ESAs, due to the unique design features of the former, in terms of addressing the issue of mechanical resonances. The white paper written on the subject makes interesting reading:

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/pdf/claritycapmr.pdf

I've compared the MRs against the ESAs, and there is no question that the former offer a significant sonic improvement. If you can get the right values in MRs, then you've got a nice upgrade waiting there, should you wish to pursue it ;)

Marco.

---

Thanks Marco really interesting. Luckily I scored a spare set of crossovers (which Russ C has just wired & boxed up for me) so I'm ready to part with my existing ones for a bit ... I was in touch with Nick G yesterday and will be sending them up when some new bits arrive:

• Decent quality connectors (the ones currently are very cheap)
• Dave Slagle autoformers to replace the current fixed inductors

There aren't all that many caps in there so maybe the MR upgrade will be affordable ... any idea what the caps bill in total came to on yours?

Hi Tom,

It was a long time ago, mate, and I got them from Hi-Fi Collective along with all sorts of other stuff, such as Duelund resistors and Mundorf air-core foil coil inductors, etc, so I couldn't say for sure, but the final bill certainly wasn't cheap! :eek:

If you check the HFC website, you'll get a good idea of the costs involved of using the MRs.

In my experience with upgrading crossovers on Tannoy DCs, however, the sonic rewards are significant from spending as much as you can afford on the best components - that is if the end result you desire is genuinely high-end sound, as opposed to something else that is good, but not quite at that level.... :)

Marco.

Really enjoying this thread keep it up chaps :)

Some more progress this morning:

First of the new plinths made and fitted. For now I've just fitted the base with the steel domed feet removed from the original base until I drill and fit the castors.

Just need to fill and lightly sand to a decent finish to accept the veneer. Fit is exact. The new plinth sits very precisely to the old one with no steps or gaps, so the veneer which will go across both sections should fit very well and it will look like a monolithic construction:

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/...psca9d741a.jpg

Front View:

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/...ps75f0a15f.jpg

To give an idea of scale, the speaker now stand a whopping 43 inches high (1.1m) without castors. The castors will raise them to 45 inches (1.1.5m). The base is also very heavy and stable. With the drivers fitted, these will be a 2 man lift job.

Makes my Contiboard efforts look a bit crap..:scratch:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hifi_dave

Makes my Contiboard efforts look a bit crap..:scratch:

---

I could mess things up yet Dave! The only thing I hadn't thought through was the type of castor. I've bought standard 40mm dia plastic wheeled castors. They'll most likely crack every porcelain tile in the utility and kitchen as I move them to their resting place in the living room! Empty cabs must weigh in at 30 to 35Kg now.

A little more progress this week:


http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/...psb54622fd.jpg

Both plinths now completed and castors fitted to bases. Bases filled and sanded to get a perfect finish prior to applying Sapele veneer.

Rear view showing joint with existing base:

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/...ps1412fac5.jpg

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/...psef930ee4.jpg

Silver plated binding posts fitted to crossovers:

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/...ps9da43f82.jpg

New Mills wire wound resistors on order to replace the existing 50 Ohm ones (one has a nasty looking bulge in it).

I've gone the whole hog and am fitting new crossovers in a few weeks (custom built using foo caps etc) but wanted to have the originals functional too as these stay with the speakers for the eventuality they may get moved on later.

Speaker drive units inspected in detail. One driver shows signs of wear to the suspension, probably as the result of being driven with the foam surrounds gone so I've bitten the bullet and decided to have them re-coned and new suspension fitted. Also have on order a new 4-pin connector for the new crossovers.

Long lambswool/polyester mix internal wadding will replace the sponge foam internal padding which is really rather poor at controlling resonance and in reality does little to attenuate anything other than HF. LF cannot be attenuated using this type of foam so the lambswool mix is targeted at prevention of LF standing waves within the cab.

It's looking good Paul, and interesting.

Shame the cones need replacing. Still, once it's done they'll last indefinitely. Will you be able to tailor the tweeter output with the new crossovers? There can be too much output from the compression driver in relation to the bass in some systems.

I'm thinking of building a couple of short plinths for my Cheviots, to get them off the deck by three or four inches, I'm not getting bass boom, but it may make a difference.

Loving the attention to detail, Paul!

Glad you've decided to make some 'fooey' crossovers too, and retain the originals, should you sell the speakers. That's exactly what I'd have done, and you'll now *really* hear what those drive units are capable of! ;) Castors are also the way to go, too!

Look forward to following the rest of the journey, as it unfolds :)

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by walpurgis

It's looking good Paul, and interesting.

Shame the cones need replacing. Still, once it's done they'll last indefinitely. Will you be able to tailor the tweeter output with the new crossovers? There can be too much output from the compression driver in relation to the bass in some systems.

I'm thinking of building a couple of short plinths for my Cheviots, to get them off the deck by three or four inches, I'm not getting bass boom, but it may make a difference.

---

It is a shame but to do the job properly, the whole units need refurbishing really and once done they'll just need a re-foam in perhaps another 15 years time. I haven't gone for the HE surrounds as this can destroy the magic of HPD/MG drivers but stuck to original spec with improved voice coils.

The crossovers aren't tuneable save for manually changing cap values if needed. Mark Pitcher is designing and making them up for me only because I have no frequency generator or oscilloscope to test them on afterwards. mark will test and tweak from 20Hz to 20KHz. I'll eventually get round to desoldering all the components from the standard crossovers and replace everything like for like. The cost of the components is around £55 per crossover.

Raising your speakers off the ground ideally should be done to get the tweeter at ear level when seated. It does make an appreciable difference (improvement). Bass boom where it exists is more likely due to cab internal dimensions/padding and some cabs suffered with it, some didn't. I'm told that for ported enclosures the recommended volume for 12 and 15 inch drivers is 150 to 170 litres for best response and for sealed cabs with my 12 inch HPDs its much smaller...from 70 to 110 litres. Mine are 115, so a little extra wadding should improve LF, but it's suck it and see. I've bought enough to redo both cabs completely but may end up only using a fraction of that.

Loving the attention to detail, Paul!

Quote:

---

Glad you've decided to make some 'fooey' crossovers too, and retain the originals, should you sell the speakers. That's exactly what I'd have done, and you'll now *really* hear what those drive units are capable of! Castors are also the way to go, too!

Look forward to following the rest of the journey, as it unfolds

Marco.

---

Thanks Marco...yes, attention to detail is something of a fixation with me, a hang-up from my engineering days where it mattered! (...and still does!). Cabs are too big and heavy to man handle around the room so castors seemed the obvious solution.

Interesting Paul and in this case, I await your findings with bated breath, as it's wonderful to see such careful dedication to the restoration of vintage gear like this :)

When did these models go over to foam surroundss? I remember the last of the pre HPD models did, but cannot remember when.. These cabs would have been originally fitted with the corrugated ones IIRC, tightening the bass at the expense of a bit of extension and giving a touch more sensitivity as a result. Up to you of course and practical experience of the difference is lacking this end, as it wasn't until 1973 that I first heard these both at Radiolux in Watford (decades before they became a solus B&O shop) and also KJ Watford who took Tannoy on six months or so before the "Girdacoustic" HPD models were launched - the Lancasters and Chatsworths they had were sold through pretty quickly I remember.

The thing is, you still have? the Turnberry to use as a modern DC reference, so it'll be great to read what the differences are to you :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DSJR

Interesting Paul and in this case, I await your findings with bated breath, as it's wonderful to see such careful dedication to the restoration of vintage gear like this :)

When did these models go over to foam surroundss? I remember the last of the pre HPD models did, but cannot remember when.. These cabs would have been originally fitted with the corrugated ones IIRC, tightening the bass at the expense of a bit of extension and giving a touch more sensitivity as a result. Up to you of course and practical experience of the difference is lacking this end, as it wasn't until 1973 that I first heard these both at Radiolux in Watford (decades before they became a solus B&O shop) and also KJ Watford who took Tannoy on six months or so before the "Girdacoustic" HPD models were launched - the Lancasters and Chatsworths they had were sold through pretty quickly I remember.

The thing is, you still have? the Turnberry to use as a modern DC reference, so it'll be great to read what the differences are to you :)

---

Thanks David,

These were made in 1974 at the London factory using arguably the best quality of the HPDs and with the foam surrounds boast a sensitivity close to the Turnberrys (91dB V's 93dB). They have a self-resonance of 20Hz and in sealed cabs can drop lower than 35Hz before any appreciable roll-off kicks in. The sealed cabs also help with timing...they're meant to be far more agile than the Cheviots or Lancasters as well as more powerful in the bass. I still have the Turnberrys (they're not going anywhere soon) so it will be interesting to see how close the Mansfields come. They don't have the power handling of the Turnberrys but in most domestic situations, that's not too relevant.