SL-1200 Platters, bearings, mats and PSU's, cartridges, arms, and more...

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Originally Posted by Paul Hynes

No Starbucks, but the Stepping Stones restaurant in Balivanich serves good coffee and great seafood. I import good coffee/tea/wine/luxury goods for personal use. See, the internet can be useful.

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Balivanich. What a great name. You should open a distillery there, build it up as a luxury niche brand and then sell it to a Indian millionaire. Job done ,early retirement.

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Originally Posted by dale kid

If I may be permitted to make some comment on all this bravado and shameful behaviour from certain quarters. In my opinion there are two purveyors who should hang their heads in shame.

After spending nearly a life time involved with these direct drive motors and circuits I find unbelievable to read some of the nonsense spouted from certain quarters. To my mind all I see is confirmation that there is a great deal lacking in real understanding of the design and true function of the circuit.

In my senility I have attempted before now to allude to this lack of in-depth knowledge and understanding (this actually takes years to aquire) and provide some hints as to the thought and reasoning behind these motor circuits. The predictable response from certain quarters arrived in due course without recourse to well informed debate or rebuttal. It is easier to attack, delete, ignore or rebuff with barbed comments than face the truth and perhaps to actually learn something.

Huge resources and a great deal of man hours were put in to the design and development of the original motor and circuit. The final product represents the best value for money vs performance available for the design as a whole. I would also like to add that the orignal factory supplied parts such as the bearing and chassis are of a very high standard and not deserving of remarks that appear to class them as less than high quality (especially when compared to an proffered "improved" item as part of the sales pitch).

Speaking of component tolerances, we are told that oil is "flung" around, bearing shafts are sloppy or suchlike. Good heavens I have bought a pile of junk, what am I to do? My records sound terrible now that you mention all this "slop" and "flung dung".

Whilst it may be true that there is a smidgen of performance gain to be had by applying certain, shall we say tweaks, to the original design there is a ceiling that cannot be broken through. These tweaks do not need to cost a small fortune (and in fact I have seen and heard tweaked models of this turntable that perfom beyond their original design specifications, whilst still not in the league of models such as the SP-10MK2 for example, but at a very cost affordable level).

One may feel that handing over unnecessarily large sums of money for these modifications is providing the ultimate vinyl listening experience (to the one handing over these sums and of course that is your perogative) but is it not just possible that, more likely, the feelgood factor is providing a larger percentage of the perceived enhancement vs the percentage of measurable performance benefit?

Speaking of measurements, I have variously read that one purveyor claims to have a virtual warehouse of test and measurement equipment available to test and measure just about everything (would that include rumble I wonder?). I then read contradictatory remarks from the same purveyor when asked for example measurements that such are in effect meaningless and not necessary.

Just what are we to believe?

There are also contradictions concerning the raised lip on a certain turntable model platter. One the one hand we are told that this is bad and that only a certain platter mat wonder product will fit, work or whatever and allow the record to lay flat. Then we are told that a newly marketed platter disc is the next best thing to have on this platter.

Bear with me here as this contradiction gets interesting.

The cross section of an LP is designed to lay with a certain degree of curveature for correct playback. The designers of the platter in question knew all this and incorporated the miniscule raised lip to provide the correct presentation for the LP. The platter disc mentioned above has, guess what? Curvature of 1 degree to provide the correct presentation for the LP. So where does this leave us regarding the certain platter mat wonder product? Flat support or curved support?

I wish someone would explain all these contradictions to me.

There is no need for all this shameful behaviour as it lessens the enjoyment of those who are genuinely interested in maximising their listening experience. I suppose this happens when greed rears its ugly head.

May your days be long and PEACEFUL, Dale

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Hi Dale,

Excellent post with some interesting insight. I'll go through your points in detail later, as some things you've rasied are very important, once I'd done the million and one other things I have to do today! :rolleyes:

Anyway, until later.... :cool:

Marco.

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Originally Posted by dale kid

There are also contradictions concerning the raised lip on a certain turntable model platter. One the one hand we are told that this is bad and that only a certain platter mat wonder product will fit, work or whatever and allow the record to lay flat. Then we are told that a newly marketed platter disc is the next best thing to have on this platter.

Bear with me here as this contradiction gets interesting.

The cross section of an LP is designed to lay with a certain degree of curveature for correct playback. The designers of the platter in question knew all this and incorporated the miniscule raised lip to provide the correct presentation for the LP. The platter disc mentioned above has, guess what? Curvature of 1 degree to provide the correct presentation for the LP. So where does this leave us regarding the certain platter mat wonder product? Flat support or curved support?

I wish someone would explain all these contradictions to me.

There is no need for all this shameful behaviour as it lessens the enjoyment of those who are genuinely interested in maximising their listening experience. I suppose this happens when greed rears its ugly head.

May your days be long and PEACEFUL, Dale

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Dale, you are CERTAINLY not senile in any shape or form, even if you may feel that way sometimes :respect:

The mat fitted to the SL150 I owned and recently sold to AlexUK had a tiny amount shaved from its thickness on its underside, corresponding to the tiny lip of the 150's platter. I believe though, that the current 12**'s have a slightly more pronounced lip on them.

Having said the above, I should add that the SL-150 mat may well have had differing height in its groups of "grooves" giving this 1 degree of dip (I never checked to be honest, but Alex could). The Herbies/Timestep mat is a two-layer design with a soft but loaded foam type under piece and a thinner rubber upper section. The feel of this mat is like the fluid filled mats Sony used on the PS-8750 IIRC.

My advice still is to look out for a good SP10 II. I love this deck and if I wasn't such a fan of NAS silcon-rubber driven units, I'd love to have had an SP10 instead - a beautiful thing IMO.

Garrards don't have flat platters for the same reason as the 1200 but I've I never seen an offical RIAA or whatever standard on this. It must be written down somewhere from the dim and distant past. Maybe on tabets of stone.

I'm trying to understand what, if any, significance it might have if indeed it is true. I'm sure that records are pressed with the intention that they are flat. Many mats and platters have a mild indent to accomodate the label thickness. If records are really intended to be dished in use it suggests that the azimuth of the cantilever & diamond will be wrong at the outer edge and become more correct when closer to the centre.

I'm dubious tbh. Thats why I was hoping to see a mechanical spec for a record that suggests they should be supported in this way.

Gentlemen, I hope questions about LP profiles may be aided by way of the folowing diagram (I also hope the link works or else I will have to call upon the good graces of my Grandchildern to assist and that will cost me).

http://i54.tinypic.com/kbvamq.jpg

Thanks Dale.

I'm still not sure why that suggests that the platter should be dished but I'll keep thinking about it!

(I suppose it also depends on the diameter of the platter & mat used)

Just a quick one before I get to Dale's earlier post... I've just read Dave Cawley's latest response on his forum to a question Chris asked - you can read it here:

http://www.time-step.net/showthread....=1087#post1087

I would join Dave's site and respond there, but I don't really have the time to contribute to protracted debates anywhere else. However I know that Dave will read this, and of course he's free to reply:

Hi Dave,

You have a very 'interesting' way of looking at things, I must say....

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It was indeed not my intention to discredit Mike New, and I don't believe I have.

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No you're right, you haven't, simply because your scaremongering has backfired and has shown up your worrying lack of understanding of basic engineering principles, as was ably demonstrated with the 'Mike New bearing heat seizing debacle', evidenced here yesterday! ;)

Sorry, but I have to be frank, as this is getting beyond a joke.

If you didn't know that the only way Mike's bearing could ever seize, at 45 RPM or otherwise, was if it was FROZEN, and not instead when used in HOT climates, then how can anyone have faith in the design of your Timestep products when your knowledge of basic engineering seems so painfully lacking??

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But simply my intention to explain the reasoning behind my preferred product line. And that I think I did, clearly and unambiguously.

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Yes you did, but the 'statement' you posted on your forum, which I replied to at length, was also quite clearly intended to discredit the designs of Paul Hynes and Mike New. This is patently obvious, Dave, to anyone who isn't one of your 'disciples'. A real man would've had the gumption to apologise, and be more than a little embarrassed, not create a further smoke screen to attempt to cover up your quite obvious lack of real technical knowledge.

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However "others" have take this to be a criticism of their own system and without properly reading, and fully understanding what I actually said, have sought to discredit me! A bizarre situation.

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Lol! I presume by "others" you're referring to me? All I did was challenge some of your ridiculous statements, politely in a very reasoned and methodical way, by reading precisely what was written in front of me. The only person who discredited you was yourself.

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People have always jumped onto the band wagon and produced "me-too" systems, but in time they all fade away in a techno-babble fog.

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There you go, you see, you can't help yourself... I presume you're referring to what Paul Hynes wrote about PSUs and transformers last night on AoS?

Now you're attempting to discredit what Paul wrote, which makes perfect sense to any knowledgeable engineer or equipment designer, by dismissing it as "techno-babble".....? :rolleyes:

I rest my case.

I see no further point in commenting on what you've written on your forum, as it is of little real consequence now. Anyone with half a brain who isn't a blinded disciple, Dave, can see exactly what you're about. You flatter to deceive, as you always have done, and always will do.

Good luck to those who are stupid enough to fall for it.

Marco.

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Originally Posted by DSJR

Having said the above, I should add that the SL-150 mat may well have had differing height in its groups of "grooves" giving this 1 degree of dip (I never checked to be honest, but Alex could)

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Placing the mat on a glass table, and then placing a steel ruler across it, there is definitely more thickness on the outside edges - about 1.5mm to 2mm I would estimate. The Herbies mat is similar, with a smaller difference of 1mm to 1.5mm.

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Originally Posted by colinB

Thanks for the offer Shuggie. My only concern is according to Leo's schematic for the installation of his SR3, you have to rip out various resistors and the internal transformer before you can run the power supply.

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As Shuggie says you may not have to rip everything out just to try it, I would be tempted to disconnect the wire running from the stock internal regulators output though just incase. Its the wire which runs to the emitter leg of Q1. I'd ask Paul to be sure if its ok to try without removing anything first, I just tend to be over cautious :)

Its worth trying the upgraded psu though, I know I was very pleased with the improvement :eyebrows: