SL-1200 Platters, bearings, mats and PSU's, cartridges, arms, and more...

[Paul Hynes]

Hi ColinB,

Shuggie is right, there are more differences in the power supplies, not all of which I care to discuss as parts of the design are licensed to manufacturers, and consequently are the subject of non-disclosure agreements. I’m happy to discuss the general differences between the power supplies.

The SR3 was designed to fit into a small case with everything, including the 60 VA mains transformer, fitted to one printed circuit board. This makes it production friendly with the minimum of wirework but certain compromises were chosen to still allow a high level of performance at a reasonable price level. The transformer is an “off the shelf” transformer, which I selected from all the readily available ranges as the quietest and most robust electrically. The mosfet currently fitted to the output stage is a rugged device with a high current rating so it is capable providing whatever current the SL1200/1210 requires for start-up even with the heavy platter. It will give a good account of itself as an outboard power supply for the SL1200/1210. The equivalent regulator module from the DIY range is now designated the PR3iHD.

The SR5 is a more powerful power supply that uses the higher power custom 160 VA mains transformer, and the higher power output stage in essentially the same regulator topology as the SR3/PR3. This higher power transformer and output stage requires more space and better thermal management than the SR3, which results in a larger case. As Marco and Martin have reported in their recent tests, this level of engineering results in a nice improvement in the musical presentation of the SL1200/1210 when compared to the SR3. The equivalent regulator module from the DIY range is now designated the PR3iEHD.

Either power supply will drive the heavy platter, the SR5 just does everything better.

Sorry there is no information on the website yet. I am just too busy with consultancy work and building power supplies and regulator modules, to sit down and update the site at present.

I hope this helps and if I can be of further help let me know.

Regards
Paul

[colinB]

That clears things up Paul, thanks.
You sound like you could do with an assistant. If theres any cheap crofts up there i'd come up and help you out. Im happy with minimum wage.
Always fancied myself as a Teuchter

[Marco]

Hi Chris,

Its a shame Mike and Dave have fallen out so badly ' and i think in the long term Dave may regret some of the things he has stated !.

No doubt! I suppose though we're all human. All of us have our faults, me included, but unfortunately one of Dave's is that he doesn't see competition as a healthy thing and gets incredibly defensive of his designs. That's not a good trait when you're in business, IMO.

As a sole trader you cannot realistically expect to corner the market on any one product, or set of products, no matter how unique or special you believe your products to be. It's an ego thing, I guess.

Moreover, what you should never do is slag off your competitors. It's a total no-no in the industry, and does your reputation no good whatsoever. Apart from anything else, free-thinking people who don't succumb easily to brainwashing, or feel the need to be part of a 'club', will always view such actions with considerable suspicion. Dave also showcases himself as a 'guru', and that is a rather dangerous thing to do, IMO, as you're inevitably setting yourself up for a fall.

He is no doubt very knowledgeable on certain matters, especially regarding the modification of the SL-1200/1210, and anything to do with SP-10s (amongst other things), and I respect his knowledge, but the trouble is, there is always someone else out there who knows more than you do on certain subjects, and is thus liable to knock you off your perch......

The best thing to do in business, IMO, is to embrace healthy competition and let the quality of your products speak for itself, as word of mouth from satisfied customers will always have more impact on sales than any amount of concerted marketing, and very importantly, to remember that old (and very true) saying that 'people buy from people'.

Once you start seeing your customers as simply 'punters', rather than people, you're on the slippery road to failure.

Do you remember what Gordon Brown said after the election ' we can achieve more together than what we could alone ' very valid is it not ?

Indeed, which is why on AoS we're very focussed on harnessing the knowledge and experience of not only Dave Cawley, but of Paul Hynes, Anthony TD, Stan Beresford, Mark Bartlett (of Audiocom International), Mike New, and many others here, whose collective knowledge and technical abilities give AoS a unique broad base of expertise that no other audio forum has in the UK.

But it would be nice if people could work together for mutual gain, rather than against each other to achieve more pain than gain............

Can i correct you on one small point regarding the psu 's i believe KAB were 1st to market with there psu ' but what Dave was emphasising was the 1st to overcome the problems of the internal regulator.

That's my mistake then, and I will edit my post accordingly. I was unaware the KAB PSU didn't solve that problem. Remember I only listen to these things as an audio and music enthusiast. What happens 'underneath the hood', as it were, is for others to worry about!

Marco.

[chris@panteg]

Hi Marco

Yes and i think it is unfortunate , when you consider there are plenty of Troll's about the net just waiting for both Dave and Mike to fall apart as it were .

I feel there are 2 sides to the story here but alas Dave will only comment on his forum.

[dale kid]

If I may be permitted to make some comment on all this bravado and shameful behaviour from certain quarters. In my opinion there are two purveyors who should hang their heads in shame.

After spending nearly a life time involved with these direct drive motors and circuits I find unbelievable to read some of the nonsense spouted from certain quarters. To my mind all I see is confirmation that there is a great deal lacking in real understanding of the design and true function of the circuit.

In my senility I have attempted before now to allude to this lack of in-depth knowledge and understanding (this actually takes years to aquire) and provide some hints as to the thought and reasoning behind these motor circuits. The predictable response from certain quarters arrived in due course without recourse to well informed debate or rebuttal. It is easier to attack, delete, ignore or rebuff with barbed comments than face the truth and perhaps to actually learn something.

Huge resources and a great deal of man hours were put in to the design and development of the original motor and circuit. The final product represents the best value for money vs performance available for the design as a whole. I would also like to add that the orignal factory supplied parts such as the bearing and chassis are of a very high standard and not deserving of remarks that appear to class them as less than high quality (especially when compared to an proffered "improved" item as part of the sales pitch).

Speaking of component tolerances, we are told that oil is "flung" around, bearing shafts are sloppy or suchlike. Good heavens I have bought a pile of junk, what am I to do? My records sound terrible now that you mention all this "slop" and "flung dung".

Whilst it may be true that there is a smidgen of performance gain to be had by applying certain, shall we say tweaks, to the original design there is a ceiling that cannot be broken through. These tweaks do not need to cost a small fortune (and in fact I have seen and heard tweaked models of this turntable that perfom beyond their original design specifications, whilst still not in the league of models such as the SP-10MK2 for example, but at a very cost affordable level).

One may feel that handing over unnecessarily large sums of money for these modifications is providing the ultimate vinyl listening experience (to the one handing over these sums and of course that is your perogative) but is it not just possible that, more likely, the feelgood factor is providing a larger percentage of the perceived enhancement vs the percentage of measurable performance benefit?

Speaking of measurements, I have variously read that one purveyor claims to have a virtual warehouse of test and measurement equipment available to test and measure just about everything (would that include rumble I wonder?). I then read contradictatory remarks from the same purveyor when asked for example measurements that such are in effect meaningless and not necessary.

Just what are we to believe?

There are also contradictions concerning the raised lip on a certain turntable model platter. One the one hand we are told that this is bad and that only a certain platter mat wonder product will fit, work or whatever and allow the record to lay flat. Then we are told that a newly marketed platter disc is the next best thing to have on this platter.

Bear with me here as this contradiction gets interesting.

The cross section of an LP is designed to lay with a certain degree of curveature for correct playback. The designers of the platter in question knew all this and incorporated the miniscule raised lip to provide the correct presentation for the LP. The platter disc mentioned above has, guess what? Curvature of 1 degree to provide the correct presentation for the LP. So where does this leave us regarding the certain platter mat wonder product? Flat support or curved support?

I wish someone would explain all these contradictions to me.

There is no need for all this shameful behaviour as it lessens the enjoyment of those who are genuinely interested in maximising their listening experience. I suppose this happens when greed rears its ugly head.

May your days be long and PEACEFUL, Dale

[Paul Hynes]

Hi Colin,

You wouldn’t like it up here. It’s the antithesis of London. It’s peaceful, there’s plenty of space with no crowds, some of the cleanest freshest air in the UK, crystal clear sea and plenty of clean white sand beaches with rarely anyone on them. The uplands are still a true wilderness where you can walk all day and see no one. The property is much, much cheaper here but the down side is you have to put up with all of the above obnoxious characteristics. Still someone has got to live here or it will end up depopulated like St Kilda, so I will sacrifice myself for the good of all.

Regards
Paul

[colinB]

Hi Colin,

You wouldn’t like it up here. It’s the antithesis of London. It’s peaceful, there’s plenty of space with no crowds, some of the cleanest freshest air in the UK, crystal clear sea and plenty of clean white sand beaches with rarely anyone on them. The uplands are still a true wilderness where you can walk all day and see no one. The property is much, much cheaper here but the down side is you have to put up with all of the above obnoxious characteristics. Still someone has got to live here or it will end up depopulated like St Kilda, so I will sacrifice myself for the good of all.

Regards
Paul

What you mean it doesnt have a Starbucks. Having second thoughts already.

[colinB]

If I may be permitted to make some comment on all this bravado and shameful behaviour from certain quarters. In my opinion there are two purveyors who should hang their heads in shame.

After spending nearly a life time involved with these direct drive motors and circuits I find unbelievable to read some of the nonsense spouted from certain quarters. To my mind all I see is confirmation that there is a great deal lacking in real understanding of the design and true function of the circuit.

In my senility I have attempted before now to allude to this lack of in-depth knowledge and understanding (this actually takes years to aquire) and provide some hints as to the thought and reasoning behind these motor circuits. The predictable response from certain quarters arrived in due course without recourse to well informed debate or rebuttal. It is easier to attack, delete, ignore or rebuff with barbed comments than face the truth and perhaps to actually learn something.

Huge resources and a great deal of man hours were put in to the design and development of the original motor and circuit. The final product represents the best value for money vs performance available for the design as a whole. I would also like to add that the orignal factory supplied parts such as the bearing and chassis are of a very high standard and not deserving of remarks that appear to class them as less than high quality (especially when compared to an proffered "improved" item as part of the sales pitch).

Speaking of component tolerances, we are told that oil is "flung" around, bearing shafts are sloppy or suchlike. Good heavens I have bought a pile of junk, what am I to do? My records sound terrible now that you mention all this "slop" and "flung dung".

Whilst it may be true that there is a smidgen of performance gain to be had by applying certain, shall we say tweaks, to the original design there is a ceiling that cannot be broken through. These tweaks do not need to cost a small fortune (and in fact I have seen and heard tweaked models of this turntable that perfom beyond their original design specifications, whilst still not in the league of models such as the SP-10MK2 for example, but at a very cost affordable level).

One may feel that handing over unnecessarily large sums of money for these modifications is providing the ultimate vinyl listening experience (to the one handing over these sums and of course that is your perogative) but is it not just possible that, more likely, the feelgood factor is providing a larger percentage of the perceived enhancement vs the percentage of measurable performance benefit?

Speaking of measurements, I have variously read that one purveyor claims to have a virtual warehouse of test and measurement equipment available to test and measure just about everything (would that include rumble I wonder?). I then read contradictatory remarks from the same purveyor when asked for example measurements that such are in effect meaningless and not necessary.

Just what are we to believe?

There are also contradictions concerning the raised lip on a certain turntable model platter. One the one hand we are told that this is bad and that only a certain platter mat wonder product will fit, work or whatever and allow the record to lay flat. Then we are told that a newly marketed platter disc is the next best thing to have on this platter.

Bear with me here as this contradiction gets interesting.

The cross section of an LP is designed to lay with a certain degree of curveature for correct playback. The designers of the platter in question knew all this and incorporated the miniscule raised lip to provide the correct presentation for the LP. The platter disc mentioned above has, guess what? Curvature of 1 degree to provide the correct presentation for the LP. So where does this leave us regarding the certain platter mat wonder product? Flat support or curved support?

I wish someone would explain all these contradictions to me.

There is no need for all this shameful behaviour as it lessens the enjoyment of those who are genuinely interested in maximising their listening experience. I suppose this happens when greed rears its ugly head.

May your days be long and PEACEFUL, Dale

Interesting points and i dont doubt your authority on the Technics.
However, would you not agree the transformer underneath the platter must have been a compromise that effects the over all sound/

[Paul Hynes]

No Starbucks, but the Stepping Stones restaurant in Balivanich serves good coffee and great seafood. I import good coffee/tea/wine/luxury goods for personal use. See, the internet can be useful.

[pure sound]

The cross section of an LP is designed to lay with a certain degree of curveature for correct playback. The designers of the platter in question knew all this and incorporated the miniscule raised lip to provide the correct presentation for the LP. The platter disc mentioned above has, guess what? Curvature of 1 degree to provide the correct presentation for the LP. So where does this leave us regarding the certain platter mat wonder product? Flat support or curved support?

Hi Dale,

Do you have a reference for this information & the mechanical specification of vinyl records generally?