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Thought i would post the system as it stands, the tt is only placed where it is as i still need to get to the backs of the speakers for fine tuning.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8433/7...354b4b53_b.jpg
DSCN0825 by simon ms, on Flickr
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DSCN0826 by simon ms, on Flickr
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DSCN0824 by simon ms, on Flickr
Cheers Si.
Puffin, you are very welcome:)
Looking great, Simon.
ChrisQuote:
Originally Posted by The Grand Wazoo
Yes still using QED inside and to the amp. Open to any suggestion. I did read an interesting claim that wire should be thinner. What do you suggest as a start Chris
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grand Wazoo
SimonQuote:
Originally Posted by simonms
Drivers are not hard wired although it probably is an obvious improvement if I experiment with a change to internal cable.
I'm intrigued Simon what enclosures next.
Hello,
First of all let me congratulate both of you on your wonderful and professional work.
I would like to ask if the 15" Monitor Golds could also be used for such a project or the cabinets and/or the crossovers should be modified?
Thanks!
Hi David,
Hope you don't mind me butting in, but when I modified and upgraded the crossovers on my Monitor Golds I used Van den Hul CS-14 Hybrid internal speaker cable, to superb sonic effect. See here:Quote:
Yes still using QED inside and to the amp. Open to any suggestion. I did read an interesting claim that wire should be thinner. What do you suggest as a start Chris
http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/2...crossovers.jpg
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/5...rossovers2.jpg
It's specifically designed for the job, thin, therefore easy to work with, sounds superb (synergising beautifully with the sonic signature of the Tannoys), and is very cost effective. Basically, there's nothing not to like! :)
See here for more details: http://www.vandenhul.com/p_D03AF.aspx
Marco.
Great work David ! :youtheman:Quote:
Originally Posted by daveskis
Thanks Marco,Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Thats really handy to know, nearly got these cross overs sounding right for the cabinets now but will certainly try this wire. The original cross overs were fine really but there are improvements with a bit of patience and measuring and off course listening. Will post when finally complete.
Best Si.
No worries, Si. Glad to be of help. Hope it all works out well for you :)
Marco.
Hi MarcoQuote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Thanks for the advice mate. I am just bout ready to go again with some modifications to the Xovers. Any ideas could be gold, I'm so amazed by the stream of excellent ideas offered up by you guys.
David
Hi FerencQuote:
Originally Posted by FFL
If I am not mistaken it was from your plans-photos that inspired me to build the Westies.
Hi David, yes that is my work ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by daveskis
I have sent you a private message FerencQuote:
Originally Posted by FFL
There is no message from you in my Inbox - try to send it againQuote:
Originally Posted by daveskis
Cheers Si.
Puffin, you are very welcome:)[/QUOTE]
Simon
I just checked your posts out on Wammers for your build. I had no idea you had so much trouble getting the sound up to speed mate.
Did you locate the probem in the end was it the altered xovers.
Yes it doesn't seem long enough since the last one........however in the twelve months, boy oh boy Santa, have I been good.
I have added an Audio Research LS26 Pre and borrowed a very kind friends AR D130 Power Amp. A Hercules Power Supply added to the Linn. Made a little sweeter with the addition of a Linn Felt Mat.
A slab of Bluestone has been inserted between the Granite and the Trampoline Mk2 on the base of the LP12.
The Westminsters have had a bit of attention. The old four pin plugs have been briskly removed and rewired more sensibly. New Xovers built and removed to somewhere external, with boxes to enclose them probably built before next xmas.
Non active cavities have been filled with sand, the two outer panels on the left and right of the speaker have been braced with 25mm square ply in four places too increase stiffness for each of the outer panel and more carpet glued in behind the rear baffle board.
Oh and the cones have been re-dyed with black and the rolled surrounds painted with a preservative lacquer. Attachment 7888
Attachment 7889
Gorgeous. Nuff said.
SimonQuote:
Originally Posted by daveskis
I just checked your posts out on Wammers for your build. I had no idea you had so much trouble getting the sound up to speed mate.
Did you locate the probem in the end was it the altered xovers.[/QUOTE]
Hi Dave,
Sorry for the late reply, have not checked in for a while. It came down to couriers damaging the units on two occasions so picked them up by hand and they are now fine thankfully.
Although i was happy with them i am building some more from BB birch to see how the materials used effects the sound, the front horn lips in to the drive unit a bit further a kin to the originals and i have spent a long time laminating the curved sections with a vacuum press and former which means they can be veneered with a vacuum press as they are not built in to the cabinet, they have to be machined on all 4 sides but with a few jigs and patience they fit perfectly.
Anyway Happy Xmas all,
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8071/8...753fc0b3b3.jpg
DSCN0993 by simon ms, on Flickr
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DSCN0991 by simon ms, on Flickr
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DSCN0990 by simon ms, on Flickr
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DSCN0986 by simon ms, on Flickr
Had to build jigs for a few parts but this is the one to add 11 degrees onto my saws max. of 46 to get the necessary fit for the flat sides of the horn.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8337/8...775601f553.jpg
DSCN0985 by simon ms, on Flickr
The pics show parts dry fitted.
Cheers Si.
Happy new year! Spent a lot of my Xmas break working on these which has been very nice indeed and have now finished the first horn section using my new method of construction.
I am really glad i went to the effort of building this way, they are rock solid and its very satisfying running your hand over the curve... they have taken substantially longer though.
I am considering the molding in these pictures for the surrounding finish of the horn area, any thoughts? Its either this or a more simple half round.
Anyhow here are some pics of the results, they are bare 26mm ply at the moment so no finish applied yet.
Dave, i hope you don't mind me posting on your thread, i can start my own if you like, nice to share though as we are on the same build(s).
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8076/8...5abcc62cab.jpg
DSCN0997 by simon ms, on Flickr
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DSCN1002 by simon ms, on Flickr
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DSCN1001 by simon ms, on Flickr
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DSCN1000 by simon ms, on Flickr
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DSCN0999 by simon ms, on Flickr
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DSCN0998 by simon ms, on Flickr
Cheers Si.
Dave hello,
Another Westminster addict is joining. Need your advise as to HPD filter you use in WM. In mine newly made I installed Golds 15" and immediately LF overwhelms all. Can you help with your experience how you altered the filter to avoid such unbalance?
Vlad
Hi Simon
No problem lets just keep it going it may end up being a sticky. What with 18k in hits, there is no denying the interest.
However nice build love your work Simon. Bracing is not needed in my opinion around the horns at all. I have braced as you can see with my photos inside the driver box with triangular blocks. Damping(carpet or such) is required on the rear baffle top and bottom. And bracing most recently applied on the panels outermost to help reduce a very slight boom to the bass. As I indicated sand helps where you can fit it. Use bags in case you ever have to remove it. And Simon Happy New Year mate
Hi Vlad and welcome to the very small club of WM Builders. I am surprised that 15" Golds(my drivers 15" HPDs)would be lacking in mids and highs, however we rebuilt the Xovers to restore some treble and midrange, with remarkable results.Quote:
Originally Posted by skydog
Happy New Year to you to Dave, looking a bit warm over in your neck of the woods.Quote:
Originally Posted by daveskis
I had some damping in the areas that you identify but ended up with none at all, on the new pair that i am building i have used 3mm cork down the whole of inside of panel that sits inside of the sides-the one with the least possible bracing to see how that may influence things but its all removable.
Once i am settled on the best sounding cabinet materials i will build my final incarnation in some fine veneer. I am hoping the slightly tweaked baffle/horn area will improve things further.
I have had a lot of different amps in and out of the system and found that the KT88 worked very well especially on the lower frequencies and hope to try a New Audio Frontiers amp finally before i take the plunge and buy something. I am using a 22wpc pp design as it stands which is great for the time being.
Vlad, there is a lot of discussion at the moment on the Tannoy Yahoo Groups site regarding cross overs for HPD385's and MG's, have a look in. Also there are some great threads on here, one by Blackadder about his experiments with cross overs and Tannoyman's thread regarding upgrades for the Westminster is excellent.
Am machining up the trim in Maple today so will post when thats done but here are the Birch ply cabs as they stand.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8076/8...37aee059fb.jpg
DSCN1024 by simon ms, on Flickr
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DSCN1025 by simon ms, on Flickr
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DSCN1020 by simon ms, on Flickr
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DSCN1019 by simon ms, on Flickr
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DSCN1010 by simon ms, on Flickr
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DSCN1011 by simon ms, on Flickr
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DSCN1026 by simon ms, on Flickr
Cheers Si.
I just can't believe the craftsmanship of some of our members. Outstanding work, chaps!
Simon... They are looking absolutely smashing!!
I can bet the ply version to bring much more solidity in the sound. I can also imagine that the amount of internal wadding may need to be altered/revised slightly to accommodate the more rigid build.
Cheers Joe,Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Adder
I ended up with no internal damping on the first pair after much experimentation and waiting for the drivers to settle in. They sound really nice the way i have them, the originals had no damping so i thought this may be the outcome. I suspect the same will be the case for these. Ferenc, the fellow who's build gave Dave the inspiration to build these used a lot of internal wadding but i found i preferred the sound on my build without...i have about £150 worth of various damping materials that are now redundant but will try them again on the new pair and do some measuring again.
I hope that the more solid curved sections and the ply will be a nicer sound through these but will have to wait and see...must chat re. cross overs at some point again, will be in touch in a few months:)
One reason for the curves being built outside and not into the cabinet is that veneer can be vacuum pressed onto them so a nice veneer needs to be chosen for my third and final pair.
Cheers Si.
No probs matey... Just let me know.Quote:
Originally Posted by simonms
No internal damping?... woow!... There must be plenty of air in there to compensate, that is swish! :)
Hi SimonQuote:
Originally Posted by simonms
Yes I can see where you are heading with this, I also removed all the dampening from all the horn paths. With the result that the music opened up considerably. Over some months also experimented with various equipment.
With no obvious path to follow(we don't have concise and proven plans for covers, drivers or cabinets)it is very much feel your way along. For this reason I think it is a great idea to share our knowledge as to individual results with this experiment.
I filled the space above the driver with sand bags and the enclosure on either side as well. Attach carpet squares to the rear baffle directly behind the driver enclosure and the enclosure below. The cabinet has much less resonance now particularly with the addition of stiffening the outer panels.
The xovers have without a doubt had a very significant change to the sound. I can't stress enough how important this is.
Of course the addition of an Audio Research PH5 Phono Pre made a huge difference to the result as well.Attachment 8022
Attachment 8023
Guys, these speakers look AMAZING :stalks:. I saw some at a show and i am so jealous that i do not have a set of these in my life....
Hi SimonQuote:
Originally Posted by simonms
You must have these up and purring along by now or should that be growling.
I was sitting and listening to vinyl yesterday. The sound coming from the WM places the voices and instruments through the soundstage. The sound is dynamic and demands your attention. You may think you can read the latest Stereophile while playing a track or two, but before long you are engaged in the music again. The ability Simon, of the Westies to distract you back to the music is amazing.
Finally, at last, the Crossovers are external and located inside a couple of Tasmanian Blackwood boxes, sanded and bees waxed to death.
I would not have believed the sound could gain so much, the depth and the soundstage is incredible. It was suggested by a couple of audio mates that the Alnico magnets could have a not too wonderful affect on the xovers. So moving the xovers from the previous location on top of the Westies to just about anywhere else will improve the music. Oh yeah?
If only I had known how significant this was to be. Attachment 10001
Like the use of springs!
Yes energy is everywhere. Trying to isolate the box as much as possible. The speakers produce quite prodigious bass and these boxes are picking that up despite this isolation. Im wondering where does it stop. Should I dampen the interior of the Crossover Boxes as well. Probably, the improvement is already remarkable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali Tait
It's common for manufacturers to damp their components.
Yes I think this could produce resultsQuote:
Originally Posted by Ali Tait
Yes I hear you asking but what are you going to do about the cabinet resonance on the outer wall of the Westies. Well not one to leave well enough alone. I thought I would fix lead lined Plywood or MDF.....haven't decided which yet.
I'm hoping this will further tighten and deepen the bass. But first I may have to stop that annoying rattle from one of the windows when playing Miss Riddle-Boz Scaggs. Or maybe I should turn it down a smidgen.
Yes the lead lining was a mini disaster. It seems the cabinets need the resonance of the outer panels as does a Double Bass for deeper notes. The treble was more pronounced but that could have been because I wasn't hearing lower notes.
The mini part of the disaster was removing the lead sheeting OMG.
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by daveskis
I didn't RichardQuote:
Originally Posted by awkwardbydesign
Anybody but Simon built a pair of these. I see amongst 28,000 hits someone, surely someone took the plunge. I would be particularly interested if that someone changed the design in some way.
Just seen this thread..Quote:
Originally Posted by simonms
Simon, did you know that there is someone in Brighton with a pair of Westminsters?
About 4 years ago I bought a turntable from a guy. He was actually selling on behalf of his mum, the turntable was his fathers who had passed away years before and he was a pretty wealthy audiophile. His wife (this guy's mum) had caught the bug, kept the system going and I think even had upgraded some bits.
From memory was Westminsters powered by Boulder amps. Other than that it was a custom 7-box pre-amp, Esoteric CD/DAC, some Sirius turntable with Mission Mechanic.. yes, serious stuff! And an old lady with readiing glasses on a chain. Was a block of turn of the century flats right on the sea front, perhaps more Hove. maybe near a leisure centre or something? You never know, perhaps there's a way to find her via an audiophile group and take a look at them by invitation.
Sadly, I was too polite to ask to listen to the system...
Hi Sam
I am yet to hear a pair of Westminsters myself. Though not for want of trying. Eerily I have an Esoteric Cd/DVD player, but alas no reading glasses on a chain.
Recently moved the Westies to a new home and dedicated Music Room. Early report is they are sounding wonderful now that I have a solid concrete slab under them.
I Lusted over Westies for Years.
Open Babble claimed them Better than Sex!
Wanted to cobble up my own pair 'for ever'.
Finally heard a pair a couple of years back.
Bit of a letdown TBH.
Yes they sounded 'nice'. But hardly near what the Folklore suggested Claimed.
OR better than what my Tannoys at home sounded like
A bit Boomy and of odd / not quite right balance.
Could have been setup or ancillary gear or even both.
Irrelevant though: less than expected sounds.
Notably.. one does hear seriptitious Emperors clothes statements on these. Praise ain't Universal.
Short story: I won't be building any more Tannoy Ersatz horns.
After having once wasted too much time and effort on IMO rather poor sounding Rect GRFs.
But Hey! we all have dreams :-)
Hey Danilo
Yes I understand where you are coming from. I heard a pair of GRF at a mates place a year or so ago......disappointing is what I would say. And these built after waiting a year on special order by a famous Japanese Legendary Hi Fi House.
I have yet to hear a pair of factory built Westminsters. So I have the advantage of just auditioning mine. Boomy no, engaging, very, sharp and detailed yes. But I have the knowledge of my own build and the tweaking that makes any system your own.
The drivers I purchased way back in 1975/6 would I part with them for something more modern or new. Nuh!
Build your own the journey is half the fun.
Thank you..for that.
In truth.. I've yet to hear 'Genuine' Westies.
Few if any got shipped/bought out to the wet coast of north america
Always wondered what the genuine article sounded like.
DIY can be wildly variable ... certainly so in my hands.
What surprises me constantly. The source, ie; vinyl, CD or streaming makes a great deal of difference. I recently played an audiophile vinyl Anne Bisson, Winter In Montreal(outstanding detail) Where the music takes you to another level.
Dave
I think there are one or two asking for listening impressions on the later models. I can offer that I heard the Westminster Royal HE's ( or maybe the SE's ? ) somewhere between 2003 and 2005 at the Manchester show where Noel Keywood was demo-ing a new pair, with a good analogue front-end with WAD phono and the WD KT88 PP amp. I still think they are the best commercial speakers I've heard. Noel was apologising for the bass not being quite 'there' as they were barely run-in, but they did sound so good in other ways that it didn't seems to be a problem ( although I suppose they were a touch bass-light ).
The quality of tone on vocals and instruments was very classy, this combined with a precision on dynamics and a feeling of effortless presentation that I now know is due to the horn loading ( from my own experiments ) . I would definitely recommend them to anyone with that kind of money to spend, which I can say is rare even in the world of other speakers in the £25k class.
There didn't appear to be any rough edges on female vocals, in the amount of time I spend listening there.
Hi Mark well as I sit here I am still yet to hear any incantations or replica's of Westies. But as always with the speaker being the end of the hi fi chain, you get out what you put in. And the subtlety of for instance piano notes......which are difficult for a speaker to reproduce accurately, are sensational. I wouldn't admit to mine being bass-light. Anything played back like Yello will have the walls vibrating on the other side in the next room.
One of the members of my Audio Club here in Melbourne has offered up an audition of some. I must remind him of that again.
Cheers mate
Dave