That depends on their relative performance.
Printable View
That depends on their relative performance.
£440Quote:
Originally Posted by clap
Quote:
Originally Posted by clap
They are a lot cheaper than my other tonearm cable at £1229 :eek:
I'm still evaluating the impact its having on my system. All I'll say at the moment is that Yannis's cable is certainly an equal to the TYR. More updates later.
Indeed, and remember that we're talking here about pure silver cables, which are much more expensive. Also, remember that the 428 Phono cable I've currently got costs only £124, for a 1m length, and based on what I've heard, it's 90% as good as the Furutech AG-12, costing £450! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinT
I'm hopeful that the 432.5 phono at £219, for a 1m length, plus the extra for the 'fancy plugs' I've ordered, will give me the missing 10% and still come in at less than the AG-12. One observation I'd also make is that, based on this test, the Furutech is worth every penny of its cost, as so far, it's not easily bettered by its less expensive counterparts, which shows that one is not simply paying for a 'fancy badge'!
The SPD-4 is comparable, price-wise, with the Furutech (with standard connectors) but I suspect, of a higher level, sonically. However, we'll see what happens when it arrives. Therefore, if you're looking for a top-quality, high value for money silver tonearm cable, then both the 428 Phono and 432.5 Phono (with or without 'posh plugs') are the potential 'giant-killers'....
Yannis has sent me the following, in order to provide more clarity:
Marco.Quote:
The 428Phono has solid conductors and Litz cable geometry
The 423.5Phono-Litz has Litz conductors and Star-Quad cable geometry
The SPD-4 uses Litz conductors with multi gauge strands and has a Star-Quad cable geometry.
None of the cables that you currently have or expecting to receive is a hybrid. They are pure OCC silver.
The SPD-4 in its original design is a hybrid because it combines solid OCC silver, Copper and Mundorf silver/gold strands. However, since both Andy and you have ordered the SPD-4 design but in a pure silver version it cannot be called a hybrid any longer.
Some details for the 428 can be found here: www.back-promo.co.uk/html/428phono.html
Details for the 423.5Phono-Litz here: www.back-promo.co.uk/html/423_5phono_litz.html
Some notes about Litz in general and about our Litz conductors are available here: www.back-promo.co.uk/html/litz.html
In general, the SPD-4 is not a cable that we have available for sale. Our SPD (Special Project Designs) are part of an ongoing development process. Although they have various advantages over our standard designs, these come at a much higher proportionally cost and therefore we do not consider them as the best value for money options and we are relatively reluctant to encourage first time buyers to purchase them over the internet.
When designing a cable the options are unlimited. Constantly working on new designs allows us to improve or achieve different balances in audio cables. However, materialising some ideas often involves extensive costs that cannot be justified by the minor improvements or differences in the performance of a cable (which often is down to the personal preferences). In such occasions we believe that we should not advertise these products.
We recently worked on a cable (without taking into account the design or the evaluation process) for over 300hrs. That was simply to produce 1 unit and each additional would take almost as much time. Despite the cost of the materials, such a cable could only sell at a very unreasonable price simply because of the work it requires in order to be produced. We do work on new designs and ideas all the time, and this is the beauty in what we do. This does not mean that all of our work has a commercial scope.
I hope that the above was of some help.
Regards
Yannis
I remember that we connected up the AG-12 for a while to your deck (I think my arm wouldn't take the 90° connector on your loan cable) on my system. It sounded mighty impressive, as does all silver when done properly. Is this still your reference, Marco, against which you are comparing other cables?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Do you now have a version with straight-in connector? This is what I would like to hear, compared with the Yannis, the Dynavector and, possibly, the experimental TQ* if I receive it on time.
I'd like to hear them all and come to a decision as the last piece of my signal/speaker cable renewal project.
------------------------
* I must stress that this cable is not coming from Tellurium Q themselves, it is an experiment with my dealer to see if the Phono version of their cable can be made to work.
Hi Martin,
Yup! :)Quote:
I remember that we connected up the AG-12 for a while to your deck (I think my arm wouldn't take the 90° connector on your loan cable) on my system. It sounded mighty impressive, as does all silver when done properly. Is this still your reference, Marco, against which you are comparing other cables?
The AG-12 I have has a straight-type DIN plug, as indeed do all the other tonearm cables I'll be testing, from Jannis.Quote:
Do you now have a version with straight-in connector? This is what I would like to hear, compared with the Yannis, the Dynavector and, possibly, the experimental TQ* if I receive it on time.
I should have the AG-12, and both the 428 and 432.5 Phono Litz cables for our bake-off, a week this weekend. The comparisons should indeed be fun between those, the TQ and the Dynavector! :cool:
Marco.
The SPD-4 allows you to see more deeply "into" the soundstage. Bass has better clarity and better definition and more "oomph". Vocals however appear a little thinner than what i'm used to with the TYR. Microdetail has increased and my systems ability to be clinical and dispel poor recordings seems to have increased. Soundstage is bigger and I'm hearing more seperation between instruments, complex prog rock sections can be followed with greater ease. I think I need more time for the cable and SR7 to bed down before I can really give a detailed analysis.
Any update guys?
Hi Tristan,
Still waiting for the second cable to arrive - should be here by Friday. I'll let you know :)
Marco.
I'm getting near desperate for a new upgrade arm cable i'm just wondering weither to make one up myself!
Perfect timing :eyebrows:Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Yes, let's hope so! :)
Marco.
Good news. Lets hope it gets out before they close the borders.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Is this the same cable as what im trying out?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Is this the same guy on Ebay ?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pure-Litz-...item3375815d6a
Brian.
Hi Brian,
Yup - that's the chap! :)
Marco.
Hi Andrew,
No, it's the 'posher' litz cable (432.5 Phono), which is coming, and that I still expect to be pretty special. My SPD-4, the same as yours, is not due yet for another week or so.Quote:
Is this the same cable as what im trying out?
Marco.
That looks a good spec, Marco. I expect it to sound rather good.
Should do, Martin, especially with the Furutech DIN and Eichmann silver bullets on it... I'm just hoping that it arrives before Saturday :)
Marco.
Thanks Marco , his cables look quite interesting .Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Brian.
Trust me, they are! ;)
Marco.
What makes you say this Marco:scratch: How its litz posh:scratch::scratch:Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Lol, daftee... Not 'posher' than the SPD-4 (what you have), but 'posher' than the less expensive 428 Phono Litz cable... Do keep up! :D
;)
Marco.
Dude, its only 10.19 but i'm shattered I've had a very busy day today so keeping up with this thread after 20 pages of posts is frying my noodles! The SPD-4 IS better than the TYR but its difficult to seperate the improvements on my system because I got the SR7XL two days before the tonearm cable arrived. Thats why i've not written a super-dooper report on the cable, SORRY BOYS;)
I'm a bit confused now! Who has exactly what?
Lol... I have 428 Phono Litz, with standard plugs, priced at £124. I'm waiting on a 432.5 Phono Litz, priced at £210 (plus extra for 'posh plugs') arriving any day now, and also an SPD-4 (the same as Andy's), priced at £440, arriving in around a week.
All of the above will eventually be compared with the £450 Furutech AG-12, which I'm currently using.
I trust that this clears up the confusion? :)
Marco.
So...what's the difference between the 428, 432.5 and SPD-4 (appart from £316)?
Matey, you need to scroll back and read the last few pages of the thread properly - all the info is in there (and links supplied by Yannis, which explain the different construction of the cables in question) :)
Marco.
P.S it's 428, incidentally, not 482. The 428 and 423.5 numerically define the difference in conductor thickness, used in both cables.
Actually, I have read back through the posts quite a way (a few times) - the info line isn't very linear though and there is quite a lot of unrelated chat.
Doesn't matter though.
It never is on forums...Quote:
Actually, I have read back through the posts quite a way (a few times) - the info line isn't very linear though...
See my post #203 (and the links therein) here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showp...&postcount=203
All is explained in there :)
Marco.
Ah yes, that clarifies things :) Cheers.
No worries, dude. As you can see, the internal construction and materials used are different with each cable, and therefore explain the differences in cost :)
Judging by the 'sound-per-pound value' I've heard so far, with the entry-level 428 Phono, I'd expect the SPD-4 (for example, at £440), sonically, to perform far in excess of its cost, which is why Andy has already commented that it's even better than his usual Nordost tonearm cable, costing £1229! :eek:
Indeed, the 428 Phono (at £124) sounds as good as many other tonearm cables I've heard at twice the price and more, which augurs well in terms of what the 423.5 Phono will be capable of, and thus so far, ably demonstrates the 'giant-killing' potential of the cables that Yannis produces.
Marco.
Well, everything's arrived now, except the SPD-4, which should be here sometime late next week, so it's comparisons ahoy tomorrow at Martin's place!! :cool:
Marco.
I've been listening to the SPD-4 with my old Audio technica cartridge (see sig), I now have the Ortonfon black strapped into the 1210 to commence further listening tests and it will be nice to hear what comparisons Marco & Martin come up with over the next few days.
I've been having a brief listen to the 423.5 Phono Litz, fitted with Furutech CF-DIN(R) and silver Eichmanns, and even at this early stage it's sounding quite superb, and significantly better than the 428 Phono Litz, with standard connectors, which is to be expected, given the difference in cost.
The 423.5 Phono Litz has a gorgeously fluid, vivid and lyrical sound, punctuated by phenomenal filigree detailing, making all musical performances come alive in the most involving way. It's not fully burned in yet, but this cable has all the hallmarks of being something rather special indeed...
Stay tuned for some detailed thoughts, after my session tomorrow at Martin's place! :cool:
Marco.
Might be worth talking to Will.Quote:
Originally Posted by F307
He's not posted for a while, but he checks in once in a while.
Right just a few quick notes. I've had the SPD4 strapped in with an ortofon cadenza black. I just listened to Kind of Blue (Miles Davis). The cable gives a truly 3D representation of whats on the disc. Miles sits centrally in the soundstage, Bill Evans sits firmly in the background. Every instrument can be perfectly placed in a 3D soundstage. The TYR does not give this depth or width of soundstage as the SPD4. Every instrument has greater detail and texture. The cable probably needs a few more hours to burn in, but boy is it something special.
Yesterday we (Marco, MikeMusic and me) spent some considerable time evaluating the tonearm cables at our disposal and we made some surprising and very revealing discoveries. We listened to:
- Stock Dynavector silver cable (came with my DV507-II arm)
- Yannis 428 Phono
- Yannis 423.5 with standard connectors
- Yannis 423.5 with Furutech & silver Eichmann connectors
- Furutech AG12
Having already played music on my stock system, we tried the Yannis 423.5 with Furutech/Eichmann connectors, thinking that if we're going to hear differences then let's put the top cable in.
Well, let's dispense with the usual jaw-dropping day/night stuff and simply say that we were stunned at what we heard. I turned to Marco and said "did she (Norah Jones) just stand up?" Such was the increase in stage width and, especially, height, that we were now hearing deeper into the mix, with much more delineation of individual strands of the music. The rhythmic intensity was improved and the insight and liquidity of the midrange was magnificent.
Marco's words were "the Dynavector cable was destroyed" and I reluctantly had to agree.
After this we tried the 423.5 with the stock connectors and the soundstage collapsed to smaller dimensions with less insight into fine detail. So what we were hearing, then, was just the change in the two connectors at either end! I must admit that this was a bit of a revelation for me as I couldn't really see why this would make such a difference. However, the proof was there and we swapped back and forth just to convince ourselves of what we were hearing.
We then proceeded to determine a ranking, with the 428 and AG12 not being in the same class as the 423.5, so they were fairly easily dismissed - this is within the context of my system, though, so the 428 especially still qualifies as great value for money in a less highly revealing system.
I'll leave Marco to add his thoughts but my strong memories from this session are that cable really matters (as if I didn't know) and connectors matter! I'll be waiting for Marco's comparison of his 423.5 with special connectors against the SPD-4 that he will receive, but Yannis is going to be receiving an order from me real soon :)
Showing Marco's deck with Ortofon SUT on my system's isolated rack. We switched decks and gave each one the space needed to perform at its best.
http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/P1000625.jpg
Vinyl Listened To:
Norah Jones - Not Too Late
Muddy Waters - Folk Singer
Tim Buckley - Blue Afternoon
Bill Callaghan - Apocalypse
Spirit - 12 Dreams of Dr Sardonicus
KT Tunstall - (Ltd Edition) False Alarm EP (on 7" vinyl)
Tindersticks - The Something Rain
Nina Simone - Wild is the Wind
John Martyn - Heaven and Earth
Kraftwerk - Tour de France (Kling Klang Analogue Mix), 12" single
Antonio Forcione - Tears of Joy
Gentle Giant - In A Glass House
Robert Wyatt - Rock Bottom
Harry Belafonte - Live at Carnegie Hall
Michael Hedges - Aerial Boundaries
Yello - Touch
Jan Hammer - Oh Yeah!
Kokomo - Kokomo
King Crimson - Lizard
KD Lang - Drag
:scratch: I quite capable of making my own cables up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stratmangler
Misread post Andre.Quote:
Originally Posted by F307
For some strange reason I didn't see the word "cable", and thought you meant tonearm, and Will makes his own tonearms :)
Come on Marco, are we going to get some comments from you with regards your latest cable bake off??
Yes, daftee. Be patient, as I'm just collating my thoughts. I've been asleep most of the day, recovering from a 400-mile round trip to Martin's and back!
Marco.
plusQuote:
Originally Posted by MartinT
Jan Hammer - Oh Yeah!
Kokomo - Kokomo
King Crimson - Lizard
possibly one or 2 more we both forgot - I had these written down to take
I was there mostly for my good looks - and to learn about some of these exotic things.
Some of my albums did not sound too good, having their production exposed and looking pretty poor naked
Some adjustments to my system look to be in order
What did you think of the Greek tonearm cables, Mike, in comparison with the the Furutech and Martin's Dynavector?
I'll summarise, after you've posted your thoughts :)
Marco.
Thanks, Mike. I've added them to my post to make it complete.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeMusic
Ok, some thoughts on the tonearm cable situation, prior to heading off to listen to a few choons, before sleepy-byes...
As the 423.5 Phono Litz cables only arrived on Friday this week, I only had time to give the best one a quick listen, with a couple of albums, before dismantling the T/T from my system, in readiness for going down to Martin's place, first thing the following morning. However, as I indicated in an earlier post, even at that stage I could tell that the cable fitted with the Furutech DIN plug and silver Eichmanns, was rather tasty, and even that when not anywhere near burned-in, the sound it was producing was rather special...
Therefore, even though I suspected it was good, I really didn't know what to expect when the cable was subjected to the full scrutiny of Martin's uber-revealing and very carefully assembled high-end system. The questions going through my mind were: would it sound pants when compared with the silver tonearm cable of his (superb) Dynavector tonearm? Would the Furutech AG-12 still whip BOTH of their arses? Heck, maybe I've just wasted time and money on trying out these cables from Greece??
Thankfully, none of the above applied, and what transpired was very interesting indeed, and more than a little satisfying, as I'd rather put my neck on the line by pitching these Greek cables to all and sundry as potential 'giant killers', with so many people waiting on the outcome! However, when Martin removed the stock cable on his Dynavector arm, replaced it with the Furutech and Eichmann-equipped 423.5 Phono Litz cable in question, and popped the needle in the groove, I was utterly gob-smacked at what I was hearing - and I could tell by looking at Martin's face, that he felt the same... I guess we were both thinking the same thing: 'how could a simple tonearm cable change effect *THIS* much of a sonic improvement??' :eek:
Like Martin said, we were listening at the time to the Norah Jones album 'Not Too Late', and when the 423.5 Phono went in, it was as if she had been previously singing, sat on a stool, and then had stood up, such was the effect of the greater image height and depth to the sound, and the way that the apparent decrease in the noise-floor had increased the clarity and intelligibility of her voice. As if that wasn't enough, such fundamental improvements were only part of the story, as along with the increased clarity and vocal intelligibility, also came a breathtaking increase in high-frequency filigree detailing, allowing cymbal work and vocal inflections, which had previously been hidden in the mix (and thus diluted), to be more faithfully projected, and as a result, tangible. Now both those effects had combined to create a sense of realism and 'being there', which was little short of spine-tingling.
What I heard was rather like what happens when going from using a decent, although unspectacular MM pick-up cartridge, to a top-notch MC cartridge, fitted with a fine-line stylus; in effect, an opaqueness and 'fog' had been lifted from the sound and replaced with a crystalline clarity and 'sparkle', which shone an intense spotlight onto the recording, thus allowing one a most detailed insight into the musical programme. I said to Martin that, quite frankly, I'd have been more than happy if that level of improvement had come from a major component change, rather than simply swapping a tonearm cable, and he agreed. Indeed, I had to convince him not to order an identical cable, on the spot (thinking here that the forthcoming SPD-4 may be even better), such was the intensity of his desire to immediately have one of his own. It was that veritable 'must have' feeling one always experiences, whenever successfully introducing into one's system, such a no-brainer and all-round fundamental sonic improvement! :exactly:
We also compared the 423.5 Phono, fitted with 'posh plugs', to my current reference, the Furutech AG-12, which at that point was still leading the way, ahead of the entry-level 428 Phono, and which had performed extremely well for a relatively budget design. To my ears, the AG-12 was better than Martin's stock Dynavector cable, but quite simply not in the same league as the 423.5 Phono, fitted with the Furutech and Eichmanns, the latter which sounded much more detailed and 'wide-open', making the Furutech sound rather opaque and congested, in comparison. The Greek cable may cost approximately the same as the £450 Furutech, when fitted with my chosen 'audiophile-grade' connectors, but its sonic performance is far in excess of that, and I suspect would rival pretty much anything else available. Yes, it is *that* good!
The fact that Andy also considers the SPD-4 to outperform his £1229 Nordost Tyr, speaks volumes for the high-end cable designs that Yannis produces, and I can say the very same with the Furutech/Eichmann-equipped 423.5 Phono Litz.
Now for the really interesting bit....!
Yannis also sent me another 423.5 Phono cable, which was identical in every way to the other we'd just listened to, apart from being fitted with the connectors normally supplied as standard (LOK RCAs and a right-angled DIN connector of unknown origin, both rather heavy, due to their all-metal construction), and with a £219 asking price, instead of the Furutech DIN plug and Eichmann Silver Bullets, which I had asked to be fitted to the other 423.5 Phono cable. These less expensive 'stock' connectors were the same as were supplied with the entry-level 428 Phono, which I've been using recently and have commented on already.
Based on that experience, and on that of using solid-silver conductor WBT plugs, with and without a significant use of metal in their overall construction (0102 Ag and 0110 Ag types, respectively), I had an inkling what was going to happen, but said nothing when Martin plugged the stock 423.5 Phono Litz cable into the base of his Dynavector tonearm, in place of the cable fitted with the Furutech/Eichmann connector combo. I wanted him to hear, unprompted, what I was expecting... Well, as they say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating (or in this case listening), and when playing the same Norah Jones track again, whilst the sound was far from disastrous, the musical presentation had lost its previous 'magic', which had made the performance sound so special. Yes, everything important was present and correct, and the overall sound was very good, and if we hadn't been spoiled by what we'd just heard previously, we'd likely have acknowledged the stock cable as being really rather good.
The trouble was, though, that there was something missing (even though you could hear the cable's undoubted sonic potential, it was quite obviously being somewhat 'held in check') - and that 'something' was precisely what transforms a system from producing merely good music, to GREAT music: music which transcends the status of simply being a recording, into becoming a near-'living and breathing' live entity; music that makes the hairs stand up on the back of your neck and gives you goose bumps, compared with hearing the same music, which only succeeds in involving you on a superficial, rather than on a soulful and deeply emotional one. In short, what was heard was the difference between being as 'real' as it can possibly get, when listening to vinyl records on a hi-fi system, and listening to an inferior facsimile of that experience.
However, there was no 'voodoo magic' happening here; but rather simply the result of achieving increased resolution, through improved signal transfer and a subjective, but entirely perceptible, subsequent reduction in noise and distortion - and thus one was genuinely hearing more of what was always present on the vinyl recording itself, and the musical information from that Martin's and my turntable were intrinsically capable of reproducing, which before, with the 'inferior' connectors in use, wasn't being allowed to be fully realised. It was really as simple as that.
Therefore, what was proven to our ears, beyond a shadow of a doubt, is that with any good cable, not only is the material choice and construction very important, and how this is all executed (and Yannis has excelled here, with some lateral thinking and the clever use and combination of various materials), but that a significant proportion of the sonic benefits gained by those design principles, can be lost by the use of inappropriate/inferior connectors.
I suspect "inferior", due to the all-metal construction of the supplied samples failing to address the effect of eddy currents, as I detailed earlier in a link to the WBT website, where the different construction of the 0102 Ag and 0110 Ag plugs were described. I've heard this effect before, and I'm glad that I successfully demonstrated it to both Mike and Martin, who were present during the comparison. The scary thought now is that this amazing cable may even get better with further use!! :drool:
So where does all this take us, then?
Well, right back to the beginning of this thread, and to its title... Only now, in response to the question of: 'Could this be a giant-killing tonearm cable?', I can answer with an affirmative 'YES', whether it be the entry-level 428 Phono, from Yannis, or his quite exquisite sounding 423.5 Phono Litz (with Furutech DIN and Eichmann connectors). Both cables perform at a sonic level far in excess of their respective price tags, which was the whole purpose of this exercise.
Make no mistake, however, that the latter is something very special indeed, and will almost certainly unlock the true sonic potential of any high-quality turntable and cartridge, at no more than a mid-market price, in the world of specialist and 'big name' commercial tonearm cables. We love championing 'giant-killer' products here on AoS, especially with boutique items from specialist manufacturers, where the concept of achieving the highest sound-per-pound value, always reigns supreme :)
The question is now, can the SPD-4 raise the bar even further?? Stay tuned, folks, to find out!! :cool:
To order any of the above cables, or for more info, please contact Yannis at: info@back-promo.co.uk
Marco.
Very nicely put, Marco. It's hard to describe that moment when we swapped the Dynavector arm cable out for the Furutech/Eichmann 423.5 Phono Litz cable, largely because when our systems reach a certain level of fidelity we expect only very small incremental changes even from a fairly expensive component upgrade.
What I was faced with here was an extraordinary level of further insight into the music - for a mere few hundred Pounds (in the context of my system). No wonder I felt a little speechless and was maybe even dribbling a little...
We went back and forth several times to check our findings, but it was always the same. That cable is without doubt one of the single best 'moments' in reproduction I've experienced for a good long time.
So hurry up and tell me what the SPD-4 is like, Marco, as my wallet is ready to drop money on a 'special' 423.5 :)
I was in 'receptive mode', getting used to types of kit I don't have being done in ways I can't with my current kit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
No doubt 'The Greek' with the top end connectors was the very top. Still amazes me that bits of wire can do so much. The difference earthing the SUT was stunning. The sound from the system was as naked as I have ever heard with one of my favourite albums, Kokomo being shown to have been made very badly. Live these guys were wonderful.
The only downside to this is that I need to go looking and listening and earning some money to pay for it all
:)
After reading Marco's full post I now realise it wasn't just me that was staggered what these cables were doing.
Courtesy of this forum I'm filling out my knowledge of hifi where there have been previously some large holes
Being relatively new I didn't realise this was a sea change of large proportions
Absolutely amazing read and findings you guys, 10 out of 10 for doing this for us :) Just one question, is it easy to fit one of these things ? Are we talking re-wiring the tonearm ? I have the normal MK5g phono's so a bit naive to this type of cable upgrade - Thanks :)
The answer is YES! I would also like to say that I mirror Marco's findings but the SPD-4 is something else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco