Hi Steve pm sent
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Hi Steve pm sent
The spider /base posts seem to be out of alignment on some decks , to find out measure them with a tape measure, one may be upto 2mm out in which case , you can take the bush out and let me know and i will get a new smaller base made,to accommodate
the posts not aligning up ,or open the hole up and the bush and see how that works, if all three adjusters are too tight send them back and i will get them re machined smaller to take into account the spider or base being out ,
the distance should be equal between the suspension posts,
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This the Orbe From Hell the pylon post was out by 2mm , new base had to be made and took 2 weeks to sort with the aid of the understanding and helpful owner
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Due to web search I saw that I can replace the original springs suspension with somekind of wood pylons with string attached from a company called Solidair Audio and also from a guy who make custom pylons with named Peter ( gwernaffield ) and is a senior member at this forum.
I would like to contact with Peter email regarding a custom made pylons for my Gyrodec.
Any help more than welcome.
Thank you in advance for any help!
Hi Pete,
Please send me a pm about the pylons. Still a newbie so cant pm yet.
Thanks.
Michel
just a quick upgrade , for the ones with the split suspension , cut a 8mm disk out of 1mm rubber or sorbothane 3mm remove the split suspension adjuster , remove the ball , place the 8mm rubber pad on top of the small shaft , put the adjuster with out the ball back on to the small shaft , the rubber will stick to the top of the adjuster , remove and insert the ball , if you want to add a second pad to the top of the small shaft as well , put the adjuster back on the shaft ,and that is that instant isolation ,
I,ve got the pylons and replaced the steel bearings with ceramic bald and Wow. What an upgrade, it sounds like I have changed my amp or phono stage or cartridge.....the improvement is that big. Now I have got the 8mm rubber pads in the shaft as well and WOW WOW WOW. The stereo image and separation have taken another step up the ladder. I'm listening to a lot more vinyl now, it is just so more listenable. Stunning.
Thats sounds great, I’ve done the pylons and going to do the rubber pads next week, so looking forward to getting the WOW[emoji41]Quote:
Originally Posted by Vince
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This may sound like a naive question, but how do you cut a precise 8mm hole in sorbothane - is there a crafty way of doing this?
Hole punch? Personally, I'd look for a bit of 8mm metal tubing and sharpen the end edges, then bang it through the sorbothane or rubber sheet with a mallet.Quote:
Originally Posted by fingle
use a punch easy , also only put on top of the post and not the ball, pete
Happy person Peter.finesound who has a 2 arm Orbe
Once I had completed the suspension installation and replaced the arms and platter I did quick check just to see that all was in working order. By now it was well into the evening so I had a meal to prepare etc. so left the turntable. When I returned later I found that the suspension had “ settled” by a tiny amount ( we are probably talking seconds of arc here as the bubble level still had the bubble within the marked target area for a level setting but indicated a slight bias towards one side). I corrected this with the adjusters which , with the load of the arms and platter, were stiffer to turn than without it ( no surprise). I had a couple of similar tiny adjustments to make later but now all is completely stable. Oh, and the cutout in the motor housing now correctly aligns with the chassis position.
The result is quite something. Compared ( from memory) to the old spring suspension the overall resulting sound is far more neutral. That is the natural timbre of instruments is better revealed and the difference between recordings from different sessions or record labels is more marked. Bass is not extended further( it was always good) but has gained pitch and detail. Background noise is zero except for any pressing or tape modulation noise etc. on the disc. Although the turntable has gained neutrality this is in no way sterile and the ability of the Orbe to communicate is enhanced not diminished. Likewise the wide and deep three dimensional soundstage is improved. In particular regarding the bass end of things, the sound no longer tends to clump around the speaker position. These are all details, though, compared to what I find is the main benefit. The overall stability of the sound reveals entire passages of music that had previously passed unnoticed. That is, what may have been a generalised, pleasant, orchestral wash of sound now attains form and structure giving it real meaning. This is a major achievement.
One thing that I forgot to mention is the great reduction in audible wow that the lack of lateral movement of the chassis that the new suspension provides. In fact I have been trying discs that could bother me greatly due to being slightly off center with the old spring suspension exaggerating the effect. Now those same discs are easier to listen to with some of them now no longer providing audible wow ( it is no doubt still there for a meter to find but I listen with ears).
I am absolutely knocked out with it.
Best wishes
:thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by walpurgis
3 little sorbothane pads have helped in stopping the microphone effect off the feet into the chassis , i suspect this would work with all the gyro /orbe decks ,
I am next up once postie turns up with sorbothane, I am very interested to see if they work as I believe the vibration and microphone through the feet and into the chassis is a big issue with the gyro. It may not be so much with an Orbe due to the additional spider which the feet are fitted to and the upper spider having the pylons fitted to, obviously a Michel attempt at fixing the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by gwernaffield
I will report back on results once fitted.
I have an Orbe with the original pylons and i have never noticed any microphony issues to be honest!
the problem is the gyro uses the suspension to keep the feet on , i read an old review were they complained the feet caused noise to travel into the chassis, and you could hear if the platform was tapped into the chassis ,
also i was told by a user Aejoker on his gyro if he tapped the chassis he could hear the tap through the speaker , The answer was simple in the end to isolate the small shaft in the split adjuster (upgrade system ) in the Michell pylon , what i did not expect was it works as well with the orbe if you have a split suspension , the older type on the orbe , does not have the feet on the suspension or the new type,
Michell has decoupled the suspension in the orbe , But not on the Gyro , 3 little pads will help stop 90% , it was there when the springs where is use and still there when the new suspension was added due to the Michell design
Waiting on a new switch for my table (I have a temporary switch in place) but when that comes in and is replaced and I rebuild the table I am going to give this new tweak a whirl.
I have a Herbie's Audio Lab Super Black Hole here which I use rarely any more as I just don't listen to digital much at this stage. It is a dual layer mat consisting of a very thin top layer of carbon fibre on top of a similarly thin layer of silicone. Designed specifically to reduce vibration.
So I've punched out and am ready to go. I also have an original Herbies Grungebuster CD Mat that I've also punched out. It is an extremely thin rubber material with a bit more adhesive on the underside and I may place a piece of that underneath the Black Hole material to prevent it from rotating or slipping underneath the ball bearing.
Will report back with results when it happens.
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That looks interesting Blake. I guess you are putting these under the bearings on the pylons yeah?....looking forward to hearing about your findings Blake. I'm using the sorbothane provided by Peter and it is very effective..
Yes, underneath the bearings. That's the plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by mad-moon
Makes sense why its not a problem on my Orbe then!Quote:
Originally Posted by gwernaffield
Well done on yet another verycheap mod which appears to work well:clapclapclap:
I just tweaked the Gyrodec again, 8mm diameter by 3mm sorbothane glued to 1mm thick rubber place on the top of each suspension pylon and then the supports for the chassis (the threaded adjusters that the springs are normally on) fitted over them. This is to try and get some form of decoupling of the chassis from the legs which are attached to the pylons through the spider. Also my feet sit on small indented discs, I have glued some 2mm rubber under these as well.
Listening tests are that initially things sounded a little dry, then after listening to a few tracks I realised what has happened. There is obviously some form of better de-coupling due to the sorbothane/rubber in the pylons, the result is that there is less microphony (feedback) going on through the chassis enhancing and colouring the music. So bass is more defined (less bloom), overall more clarity and separation.
So a positive result. Not perfect, tapping on the shelf with a record playing still induces a noise through the cartridge, but I would estimate a 50% improvement. The only other thing I can think of is to replace the Gyrodec metal feet with some form of rubber feet, possibly firm sorbothane. I am going to search for some that may be a similar height and could be fitted in some way to the pylons.
:popcorn:...what's happening Blake?..Quote:
Originally Posted by blake
I know it's a bit out there, but what do you think of speaker spikes embedded in sorbothane hemispheres. I'm waiting in anticipation for parts from Peter to work on my Odyssey deck. I tried the odyssey feet into speaker spike protecters for wood floors. All this on top of a granite bass. Marginal difference but a solid base to work from. I'll keep you updated if you like. Kind regards. T.
As I understand it the key issue is to stop vibrations getting to a turntable which will colour the music, most noticeable with low frequencies. If your Odyssey sits on a solid granite platform then it is pretty likely to be free from vibrations unless possibly it itself sits on a wooden floor which is subject to movement. If you need to de-couple it more then I would talk with Peter about rubber feet.Quote:
Originally Posted by TAD12
Sorry Alan:Quote:
Originally Posted by mad-moon
No sign of the switch yet and swamped with work so have not done anything. Will likely be at least the end of next week before I can report on anything.
But will keep you posted.
Blake if it dont turn up soon let me know , it is with Canada post , pete
Thanks Pete! Not worried about it-Canada Post can be very slow, especially on simple normal delivery. Will let you know. I think it will probably show sometime early next week.Quote:
Originally Posted by gwernaffield
making skateboard feet using the post off the original feet , buy the skateboard wheels off eBay ,£avrage is £9 , a V-Bush Shock Solid Rubber Mounting Absorber Dampener ID 9mm OD 23mm L 16mm, cut in half , and fit to hole in the center of the skateboard wheel , they will go in with a push , open the hole out , it need to be a tight fit or the Michell post will fall straight through , the with the Michell part fitted screw to the deck , now on the under side on the wheel fit the 2nd part , all the way into the wheel to stop the michell post pushing all the way through , you can super glue this to stop that happening ,
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Hi ALL to carry on with the small tweaks , pegwill has been in touch with one which he will upload the details off , but to use the michell PTFE washer on top of the bearing this seems to cut down on any noise off the bearing , being passed into the platter , i may try sorbothane washer which i have to make and get back with the results, just concerned that the sponginess of sorbothane may cause the platter to wobble,
This is another superb tweak and believe me..it is letting more detail through yet again..better sound stage...better stereo image...wonderful...I've tried three different washers....the ptfe which is an exact fit round the rim of the bearing housing top...a rubber one..pretty much the same fit as the ptfe..but I have gone with a fibre washer..which is only 21mm OD...17mm ID..and only 0.9 mm thick...it works for me...exceptionally well....I'm just wondering now, if it can get any better...every tweak is giving and givingQuote:
Originally Posted by gwernaffield
[IMG]https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7889/...9e1c91d8_b.jpgFIBRE WASHER by alan moon, on Flickr[/IMG]
My switch finally arrived in the mail and tech installed it so rebuilt the table today with the isolation mod on the suspension posts. Ended up with an almost constrained layer approach using an 8 mm washer on top of the Herbie's Black Hole carbon fiber/silicone sandwich on top of another piece of very thin Herbies material punched from an ancient Herbie's Grungebuster CD mat.
So photos, in order are post with CD Mat material, then black hole damping material followed by the washer on top. The ball bearing in the suspension post tends to rest primarily in the hole of the washer and be somewhat supported by it; I felt that this might be a good idea in terms of preventing it from really digging into the more compliant material and chewing it up.
First listen is promising-I'll report back in a few days after some more extended listening time.
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Hi Blake , i no they are the split suspension but is the top of the small post on yours flat or recessed to take the ball, ?
i am glad to hear the switch turned up ,
pete
Hi Pete:Quote:
Originally Posted by gwernaffield
I have the recessed posts. I've done a fair bit of listening today. It's difficult when you make one change so quickly after another and I have not had the pylons in play all that long.
Bear in mind also that I have a plinthed Gyro with the motor attached to the plinth and then the feet/suspension posts attached to the plinth as well, so the benefits that I might get from this latest tweak may outweigh those with a SE type Gyro. Just more chances for vibration to feed into the suspension in my version of the table.
But I am liking what I'm hearing. With the Herbie's material used to isolate the two posts from one another I seem to be getting a much more fleshed out presentation. It's hard to describe but the effect is really positive. It's almost like there's more "texture" to the music and you can hear more into the performance at the same time. More detail and more relaxed and natural at the same time. Music just flows better as well-it brings to mind the Linn "PRAT" thing.
Definitely not in the league of the pylon upgrade but a real positive nonetheless.
I also punched some discs out of one of those small rubber mats you use to take stubborn locked on lids/caps off bottles and jars. A little more dense and slightly thicker as well with these but not much and the positives were not anywhere near what was achieved with the Herbies material-I felt the sound was a bit thinned out and hi-fi-ish with these in place of the Black Hole material. But some might prefer that presentation as this is such a subjective hobby. In any event, there's clearly something in it in terms of isolating this way and different materials are likely to have very very different effects on sound quality I think.
I also experimented with another Herbies product on the underside of the platter where it interfaces with the main bearing. This was not a success for me as I found it kind of tipped up the presentation and smeared things at the same time so I reverted to the standard setup there. Maybe I just had the wrong material there but that one just did not work out for me.
Hi All after a day spent trying to upgrade the upgrade, i have given up on that, they are the best i can make them at this moment in time,
But in the way of trying to stop the microphone affect which is a design flaw of the suspension it self and the Turntable, i think i am just about there , it would involve the following 3x 20mm x6 mm duro50 sorbothane washers with a 10mm hole in the center , 3 31x1.5 cross section o-rings silicone duro 50 , disassemble the pylon , remove the ptfe washer fit a red silicon o-ring , and then slide the sorbothane washer on top of the base fit the adjuster through the middle , and assemble the pylon back together , then fit the lot back onto the chassis, when level , push the sorbothane washer onto the top of the base, so now it is touching the base and the adjuster , job done, the bearing needs to be tight to the chassis to stop it moving from sided to side, the washer on the top of the bearing did not work on my deck as i found it caused the platter to wobble up and down , but it did not do it with the ptfe one, as for the pylons them selves i think i could never go back to the springs, regardless of the microphone affect , and cannot do any more to the Turntable , it now sounds better to me than ever , but we all hear differently , what is fine by me may be crap by others, even a change in the o-rings , adding rubber pads, adding string , etc all will have an effect , some positive and some rubbish , but at least now we have the option to do that , where with the springs we did not and facing hundreds or thousands to get a better turntable when all it needed was the pylons replacing in the first place,
all the best peter
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i was thinking of putting this together as a pylon system to include the ceramic bearings x4 with 36 o-rings, 3 nuts 3 bases and 3 sorbothane pads, 3 ptfe washers ,
pete
A great idea, anyone who has a Gyrodec of Orbe really needs to do this simple but extremely effective upgrade. It take the deck to another level of clarity and definition in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by gwernaffield
Skate board feet by Mr Moon , using cheap skateboard wheels and 1/2 BSF Nuts
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these stop the deck from moving , i did them a different way but MR Moons way is simple and cost effective, add some small sorbothane pads the the base of them for further vibration resistance if needed
Well Done MR MOON , :clapclapclap:
All the tweaks on the table are excellent...but this one with the pylons kit is by far the best thing you can do for your turntable. This upgrade brings your turntable imho, into the 21st century...The design of the table is good to start with, however it is an age old design and the new design pylons by Peter, bring it to life..In ways you can't imagine.. on a personal note..My turntable is sounding exceptionally well..a weighty, crisp clear presentation...The other interesting thing about all the tweaks and upgrades, should you in the very unlikely event, wish to move your turntable on at anytime, everything is easily returnable to the turntables original factory condition..excellent stuff...Quote:
Originally Posted by gwernaffield
These feet are brilliant..originally the idea came from Peter..utilising inexpensive skateboard wheels of all things..The idea was to use the v-bushes..you can see this in Peters original idea but I wanted to keep the feet so they were still adjustable. The 1/2 inch BSF nuts are an interference fit, albeit quite a tight one...as they have to be tapped in with a mallet..but they work great towards reducing noise transference, from whatever the table is placed on..In my case it is on solid Granite, so these feet now don't move at all...as the tt could sometimes move with the solid cast aluminium feet, should the stand be accidentally nudged...Quote:
Originally Posted by gwernaffield
HI all i have been asked if the covers will go back over the pylons when fitted , the answer is YES , the whole idea was so the covers would go back over ,as well as get rid of the springs ,
Hello , with regards to a Double Pulley , i stopped using one due to the WOW i was getting from using 2 belts, and losing the 45 Rpm for some Lps, which meant i had to change it every time, i also have the Odyssey TT, that has been altered in several ways.
all on here , as the New Pylons cut down on the wow and also now the improved design for the Feet from Mr Moon , it may not make any difference if you use one pulley or the double Pulley , if any one knows please leave your thoughts on here ,
pete
So what can I say. Peter supplied the Pylons however because of bad manufacturing by Michell after fitting two of them it was quite clear that the third was was off centre by about 2mm. So an email to Peter and a bit of discussion and a replacement was provided that’s was off centre. It fitted very easy and so another success for Peter.
Well on testing it was soon apparent that that it was different. After to listening to a few more lps I decided that the distortion or colourisation that was missing and now I was hearing the real music for the first time, I used to think it was so good. Anyway, I’m using a mc with an suit with no impedance matching, but I never really noticed that it was a problem. So after adding some resistors to the primary for the recommended load. I was so much better. I know it’s a cliche it really was like a veil had been removed and just because of a few pylons. I say just a few pylons but obviously a lot of research and time and effort went into them. I have also changed the bearings for ceramic both the main and in the pylons as well has added the rubber to the pylons.
So all in all very successful and very pleased I would say a must for any gyro owner.
I then did some further research on the web and found that some suggested fitting a thin piece of rubber between the bearing and the platter. I tried this but did not like it. Because I happened to have a pylon ptfe washer that fitted the outside of the bearing surface I tried this. I liked what I heard. The only drawback is that the platter nut cannot tightened up. This does not seem to have any effect on it no wow or flutter, so at the moment it’s just the wieght of the platter holding it down which seems to be ok.
So all in all money well spent very pleased with result and I for one won’t be returning to the springs.
Thanks once again Peter highly recommended.
Hi All some thing was asked on PFM and a picuture of Gert Pederson parts was used(These look similar (but not as finished) to Pedersens who has been making them for years, whats the difference?) the reason is to some how pick at the pylons so here i go with the answer , NO i do not own a Gert pederson Gyro But know of some who does, and the comments were they move all over the place, This would be down to the design of gerts only using 3 large o rings, and also needing a pile of sand, plastic padding , string and holes to be drilled to stop them wobbling not my words but the owners, the string stops the chassis moving and the extra weight is added to the bottom of the chassis ,also filled in with sand and sand well added, you have to send you gyro to Gert to get this done ,He Will NOT sell his suspension separately i suspect it would not work with out all the sand and string , and yes they are all nice and polished steel , which will not stop the wow, unless the string is holding the chassis back , current price of Gerts upgrades are on line around about £600 -£850 with post ,
for gert to do the deck him self it would be an extra £200, on top of the price which is for and orbe se,
Now i come to the fact they are made of steel , you have taken a steel spring and replaced it with a solid steel holder , which hold 3 thick o-rings,which must RING
Now you come to the Pete's Pylons as they have been called By Tarzan ,but just pylons to me, , Yes you may not think they are as pretty as gerts ,but they dont Ring like Gerts either,
they keep the chsssis from moving with out the use of string ,sand , and palstic padding , cost a 3rd or less than gerts no need to destroy the chassis, no need to add string and do not look like gerts use a different principal have taken 3 years and
a lot of help from AOS members ,
i hope this answers all THE CHRONICLES Questions, as the deck Gert Does looks and sounds Great But is it still a MIchell????? with all the holes, drilled ,weight added, and £160 armboard added, as well
and i own the IP to these
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a Friends gyro now fitted,
I installed mine today - very straightforward. I'm an impressionable type so I'll be swapping back and forth for the next few weeks but they do seem to have made a positive difference: everything seems a little cleaner and more solid, and the slight graininess I was getting with voices is gone.
Not a regular poster here but wanted to thank Pete and report on my (early) findings.
I am waiting for delivery of skate board feet, and rubber bushes I will then be fitting and trying out. At the same time I will be making another small but cheap change and will let you know about that after.Quote:
Originally Posted by gwernaffield
Everything I have done to my Gyrodec as advised by Pete has been an improvement so based on that I will be interested to see what these changes make.
Hi there, I've just applied a mod to the feet on my Odyssey. I used Target Audio speaker feet (years old, sitting in a drawer unused) under the Michell feet.The Michell feet sit snug inside the Target audio feet, which were designed for metal spikes and much more weight than the Odyssey generates. The Target feet then sit on top of SDS anti-vibration pads. Just now, also awaiting a granite slab offcut from a kitchen installer to finish off the base. If anyone wants a link to the feet then pm me.
Excellent work from Peter.
Kind regards.
T.:cool:
Hi Tad great to see other people adding to this thread , that do not normally do this, and to see the thread is live and well, i am still convinced that there is more to do to the deck which should not cost a arm and a leg with regards to some how stopping the microphone affect , that has always been there ,any help in this is always wanted on here , if you know of any upgrades to any turntables you might as well add those ,
kind regards
Peter
Differences in the odyssey , the odyssey uses the same decoupling method as the Orbe using the case and a spider so the feet do not connect to the suspension only to the case/plinth , also the underside is heavily damped in all the webs , this make the deck heaver than the gyro and also a different sound, more precise, that is why i have never commented on the pylons , i have left it to the owners to do that , this is the underside of the odyssey from the factory , you will notice it is in every part of the chassis , the webs have not been done , so i have added some Caravan Mastic None setting stuff , it looks exactly the same as the new white version cost is £9 for a lot off ebay , before and after, more was placed around the bearing in nearly evey web and around the arm and motor sides , this is still being done , there is no ring out of the chassis,
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