Ours crossed in the post, J.C. Don't take things so seriously (that's an assumption). Haven't read Marco's notice yet, though, as I do get carried away by this literary exchange.
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Ours crossed in the post, J.C. Don't take things so seriously (that's an assumption). Haven't read Marco's notice yet, though, as I do get carried away by this literary exchange.
jc,Quote:
Originally Posted by jcbrum
As you wish. You've just shown your true colours.
:wave:
Now, folks, let's get back to normal! :)
Marco.
It's an interesting idea, Mike, but unfortunately we don't know Richard well enough yet, and I'm not sure he'd want the responsibility.Quote:
Keep up the good work, chaps. This thread may disappear into the wilderness in early course, but not before a few laughs have been had.
Now there's a thought; a ranting moderator. Throw convention to the wind, Marco!
Anyway, I'm sure he will be too busy thinking up lots of new subjects to rant about now he's 'free' (in this room) of the attentions of his two friends! ;)
Marco.
I don't think he has, I think what he's said is true and I've had enough too.
You've allowed yourself to be dictated to by others with commercial interests and who might actually gain something from this Forum, ultimately at its expense.
I've made the points I think relevant elsewhere so, other than to say good bye, I suggest that this leaves you with a narrow and dull remit for a Forum. By that I do not imply that AVI is the loss, just the knowledge, the experience and the contacts we have and the people it may attract. In the ordinary course of events it wouldn't amount to much, but by comparison with Pure Sound and NVA, we are Titans!
Marco, I detect regret in your post,
I am proud of my "true colours" in that I say what I believe and am not beholden to anyone.
That is no longer the situation for any member on this forum.
You made the wrong decision, and no self respecting person can now be associated with this forum. It taints every one.
You could think again, but until then I'm gone. bye bye.
Well now the dogs of marketing seem to have pissed up their last tree (thread), I think a small period of peace and quiet reflection is due.
BUT be scared, be very scared. THE RANT WILL BE BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am very disappointed by Ashley's and JC's decision to leave The Art of Sound as it confirms that they really did only intended to misuse this place to turn every thread they posted on into an ADM9s infomercial.
We were hoping for considerably more depth and breadth from their contributions that could be drawn from their vast knowledge and experience of both hi-fi and life in general.
I do genuinely wish you all the best with ADM9s. You certainly don't need to endlessly market (plug) them here on what is still a small commiunity and one that could all too easily be completely dominated by the kind of product and marketing style that is somewhat at odds with our ethos and flavour.
I appreciate that you've generated more traffic but road accidents often have a similar effect.
There is nothing like burning ones bridges. :rolleyes:Quote:
You made the wrong decision, and no self respecting person can now be associated with this forum. It taints every one.
I am in total agreement with Steve.
The most pertinent observation is that faced with the choice of not being able to discuss AVI but remaining to discuss other relevant subjects both chose to go, which says everything you need to know about their (supposed) commitment to 'improve' the forum!
However, neither of them are banned and are welcome to return (and observe the rules) if they wish.
Unless Rob has got anything further to add, this is the last word on the matter and any further input on this subject from the 'AVI boys' will be removed.
Richard,
I look forward to many more rants in due course! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Toy
Sorry Steve and Marco, but I have to disagree. JC is simply a happy customer who auditioned many manufacturer's hardware and settled on AVI. If he can't rave about how good it is on a hi-fi forum then where can he? Ashley has, as far as I have read, not used this forum to turn every thread into an AVI 'informercial' at all, he's simply (and quite rightly) discussing his angle on hi-fi and AVI's products as a result.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Remember that when we invite manufacturers to join, we tell them that they may promote their products at will. What good is it if we suddenly decide to remove that offer once they start talking about them? Also if we have to place a ban on discussing AVI products, then surely we have to place a ban on talking about ANY manufacturers products. Mmmm, great basis for a hi-fi forum and does it not completely go against the very fabric of our original intentions for The Art of Sound?
I have purposely avoided coming on whilst this thread has been growing, I wanted to let it run its natural course and see the result. The result is as posted in the Notice Board section which was a little unexpected to say the least bearing in mind the excellent relationship we have with our trade members. Personally I think it's a mistake, but then we can't all agree 100% of the time. :)
That's my penneth worth, for what it is worth.
Well done - result!
I'd welcome Ashley back to hear his general views on things hifi & music - he at least was polite - but to be honest I'd ban his side-kick for being a totally obnoxious narrow-minded git (and that's wording it politely). ;)
Back to things hifi ..... I'm just about to start a new thread. :)
even though i am probably the last one to comment on this decision, being at the oposite end [sort of] to ashley in terms of the the type of equipment we are involved with etc,i have to agree with rob, i found ashley very knowlegeable at times, even though we would probably never agree much on anything "hi fi" so, i think not allowing him, and people like him to at least have their say on this forum is a real shame, i know things got a bit heated and ashley with hindsite probably would agree that maybe he should have had a more open mind to some of the other guys own views of what makes for a good musical experience, or not, but hey,what do i know!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Filterlab
Anthony,
We may yet be able to broker some kind of compromise...
AVI make great kit apart from ADM bloody 9s and Rob has just bought some of it...
Almost, but not actually purchased yet. The power amp (S21ma V2.0) is currently sitting at the top of a very large pile. I've just got one pair of monoblocks to hear first. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Toy
Guys,
I hear what you're saying. At the end of the day, all I want is what is best for the forum, and what keeps the majority of our membership happy. It should always be remembered that a forum is only as good as the people in it, and what we consider appropriate or of benefit may not be so to others.
Therefore to that effect, I propose we conduct a poll and ask our membership to vote on Ashley and jc. The poll will run for a couple of days to allow everyone the chance to vote and I will stand by the results of the poll and respect the majority decision.
Rob,
Would you care to do the honours? :)
Marco.
I'm on it now babes. ;)
I must admit, I have found these threads most entertaining in the last few weeks, conversely also saddening too that manufacturers have resulted basic low level slanging matching in the public domain.
As pointed out, both Richard and Ashley are articulate and intelligent people, who are knowledgeable individuals. I believe they contribute to the whole, even if their views are biased.
'Professional hat off time'
In the red corner weighing in at 210 pounds 'Ashely squawk box power monitor III James' tag line, PC audio is were its at
In the blue corner tipping the scales at 195 pounds 'Richard the whole audio industries a bunch Cnuts and robbing smoothing talking bar-stewards who would steal the grannies boot laces for a £5' Nva is where its at!
Ashely's seconder Jcb the ' the Conditioned rabid pit bull on speed' with instant level V force field activation in the defense of avi squawk boxes.
Now While I agree with the majority of the common sense in some the replies here, in that Yes JCB has a right to support any product he uses and likes and say so (free speak/Churchill and all that!). He has to accept the fact that not every one in the free world is a lover of the those little powered monitors as should Ashely and therefore should be awarded the same courteous.
In the same vein Richard's bitter and twisted cynicism out weighs my own by a factor of 10 to the power 2M lol!
Richard also stated he was possibly needing to registrar for VAT, now I believe the Vat threshold is around the £60K mark? with all the protestations and high profile antics on forums obvious his sales have made a huge leap ;-)
How about some decent reasoned debate rather than taking pots shots at each other all day chaps?. Not too much to ask.
Tony
Well, it's Mr. C (Hi Tony! :wave:) - nice to see you here, you are much missed in "another place".
I'd certainly support a call for more reasoned debate, and now that a certain rabid dog is hopefully peeing on a different lamp-post that looks more likely to happen.
Be kind to Mr Dunn, though - his heart really is in the right place, I think - even if he does see the world thru cynicism-tinted spectacles! ;)
(What colour is cynicism anyway? - sort of a blotchy yellowy-purple, perhaps).
You really should learn to read before you spout.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. C
There is a thing here called an archive, search under Richard and find me any post where I have promoted NVA. You will even find posts where I have refused to promote it, you will find posts where I have asked to be *not* called a trader as I do not wish to trade here. I have even explained fully why I am not pursuing sales and wish to stay small. Strange it may seem but true and obviously outside of your comprehension. The pursuit of more leads to more overheads more time more agravation, as well as more money, and in fact past a certain stage means you get less. You then have to do a *lot* more to break through that barrier and most businesses are subsequently pulled down by their overheads. There is a level of production which maximises return v work (I am a lazy sod) it is siting at vat limit. It was my intention on re-starting just to do this. I am not interested in challenging the big boys or even the middle size boys like AVI, I am not (on my own) capable of challenging them.
Part of the advantage of being like this is I can call a spade a spade and tell about the industy as it is. The industry has lived in delusion for years motivated by the slurp triumvirate - marketing man - reviewer / editor - retailer. The world is changing, my thesis is that this current state of affairs has had its day, new forms of commerce are emerging. My desire is to be the finger pointing, not the moon.
I have a real decision coming up as to wether I deliberately restrict sales even more or I accept a degree of expansion in order to include products I have the desire to produce - it is a real delemma. Luckily I can hold off this decision until I move house, and moving in the present housing environment is a bag of nails. So I may try to avoid it for a while. I have taken a high presence in this deabate because I have been chuntering for years to myself and people who know me about the state of the industry, but now the control powers are waning, as I have said many times, so I am giving it a push. The rip off retailers have had their day, most will go bust over the next couple of years in this recession. They have slurped off the customers for the last time IMO.
If you think I am wrong then test it - do one of these vote thingies and ask if customers think they get a good deal through the traditional marketing in this country - yes right!! that is why you charge twice as much on average for the same product as opposed to a US or Far Eastern dealer.
Someone has to *rant* the changes as they happen and I decided to do it.
There is no nva promotion from me and there wont be any. BUT I cannot deny who I am.
Richard,
I believe you when you say you do not self promote. Possibly others are batting on your behalf with incentives.
There are ways and means of going about this, (FWIW I do actually believe in around 40% of your views).
I just do not have the time to write reams and reams about who/what and were fores.
I have a business to operate and customers that need service and expertise and we are busy.
One thing I will say is this, the hifi industry in the country will/need and is having to chance those that don't will fall by the way side.
However, there are a few companies that are ON the BALL and who sussed this issue quite a while ago. Customer service and the ability to delivery the goods, not 30% cheaper by internet, BUT actually make it sound right, and provide the back up and friendly open advice. Simple box shifting and the numbers cannot provide this verbaitum.
Hi Jerry,
Thanks for the words, you will still find me around, though these days my work load is getting 'interesting'
Now and again I can find the time to answer a few forum queries and muse with rest.
Tony
OK you have got my goat you twisting little sod.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. C
Name one person who bats for me and what incentive is provided to them, if you do I will sue, if you can't you can stick your innuendo up where it belongs, Fff-ing cheek!
Retailer desperation, try to kill the piano player not the tune. Well the tune is on automatic, you can't stop it.
Richard,Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
A couple of points here
1. I am not little, I don't twist and the last time I looked the this morning I was not a clod of earth.
2. Innuendo?, I cannot see any, nor do I rate Queens last album
3. FFF-Cheek?, I believe you are the master of this particular trait with some aplomb
4. If some one presented the proof online, would you really want to waste your money being shown the way in a small claims court? you would look rather silly.
Richard, take a step out of the circle, have a cup of earl grey, a kit kat and relax, let the sands of time wash over your jaded soul and release those tensions in deep and meaningful meditation. You know it will have the desired effect.
lol! I meant to say "oh dear!"
My reputation is very important to me, to the point that my last penny will go on defending it. Innuendo is what you used, everyone here sees it and can verify it it. Innuendo is the province of the fraud and the charlatan, used by the red tops all the time, so you are in their class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. C
This rumour was started at PF and continued at WW. Rumours tend to take on their own life. I understand it was started by £50 retailers, which you were one of, so you may have been instrumental in the original. There is none and can be no proof of it as it didn't happen. BUT the challenge is put out there for you or others to publish some or make your accusations concrete and not just innuendo and rumour, then sunshine I will sue and it wont be the small claims court you can be sure of that.
Richard,
If you reputation is so important to you, why do you insist on making yourself look less
than professional in the public domain
I have no knowledge of what happened on PF or WW, neither do I wish, I do not spend my life trawling through internet forums, I do have a life and more important things to attend to. (quite why I am still answering you is bemusing me lol)
Rumours,
Indeed through the annals of time have had the same effect, start one statement at the end of one line, by the other its something completely different.
I can vouch for the fact that internet forums are certain a place for some great ones!
"Innuendo is the province of the fraud and the charlatan, used by the red tops all the time, so you are in their class."
Innuendo is also a great class of humour and the skill in a which a negotiator can solve a problem.
Attempting to tar me with the same brush Richard is a pretty basic response, one which I am sadly disappointed in.
A man with your obvious talents for the dramatic its very average repost, must do better Richard c minus.
This I believe is one of your gems from your last reply
'I understand it was started by £50 retailers, which you were one of, so you may have been instrumental in the original.'
I see you are resorting to the very tactics you have being trying to strive against, pot/kettle/black syndrome.
very light weight indeed:-(
AS for sunshine Richard, I have never been your sunshine, nor will I be, your just not my type.
If the proof is becomes available, May the chalenge will be taken up expediently, and those big reteric outpourings you have been spouting over the great world wide web will be silenced.
:scratch: Hmmmm... I don't think I quite follow whats going on between you two. I get the impression that there may be some, err, 'history'? :scratch:
:confused:
Shain,
Genuinely no history between Richard and myself, I have never met the man or communicated with him other than on an internet forum.
I believe some of views are spot on others are a little off the mark nothing more.
Richard,
Tony is one of the good guys. As well as being a dealer working from home he also manufactures his own cabling. He is certainly no box shifter and I feel he adds a lot of value in what he does.
I think both of you should read my Winds of Change thread:
http://www.theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=334
Ah!.... Just Richard doing his 'pull no punches' bit then!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. C
You are obviously a liar!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. C
You would not have brought up the subject if you hadn't been privy to it at PF or WW.
So how would you feel if someone said you were taking backhanders to promote product here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Toy
I think Richard took this to be implying that he was paying or otherwise encouraging people to promote his products. This is I think a reasonable interpretation to make.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. C
If Tony did not intend it this way, then perhaps he could say so. Otherwise, I would say that this is a serious allegation and should only be made if provable.
Do you think I am?Quote:
So how would you feel if someone said you were taking backhanders to promote product here?
Not in the slightest. I just wanted you to see how I feel about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Toy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince of Darkness
Well said!
I may be wrong, but does there seem to be quite a bit of, erm, 'passionate discussion' among some of the forum members who are 'in the trade'?
It's quite interesting to some of us punters, but I hope it doesn't all end in tears!
:peace:
There is going to be more of this as you observe the death throws of an industry with a parallel rebirth. Differing ideas and concepts on this rebirth. Ashley and AVI is one very valid one - we will all go laptops or iPong pods. He may be right for the majority. BUT the enthusiast will still have to have his hobby. Like it was in the 50's and early 60's we are going back to it, the wheel turns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shian7
50s and early 60s? Was that when they had those wind-up Gramophones? :eyebrows:
Marco.
No they had virtually identical things to the ones you rave about :lolsign:Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Something strange happened in between then and now as far as you are concerned :scratch::ner:
Excellent...... Bring it on!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
:smoking:
You will bring it on, with like minded people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shian7
I wont bring it on, I only have the function of the finger, you are the moon.
Now hey!.... don't get all philosophical on me, I'm a simpleton, just ask JC'sBum! ;)... pointing at the moon indeed! :lolsign:
I'm trying to do my 'bit'. I buy things in kit form or directly from manufacturers these days, if it's something I NEED to use a dealer for I tend to look for independent folk who deal mainly in second hand gear.
Opps sorry, I believe the correct phrase these days is 'quality pre-owned equipment supplier'!
Cheers,
Mike.
thank goodness for mike, you crack me up mate, your outstanding at turning things back to a light hearted discusion, maybe marco, rob, steve, should make you peace maker [maybe court jester?]Quote:
Originally Posted by Shian7
anthony....
Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyTD
Thanks for that mate.... I try to do my best, life is too short to be serious all the time, this is only a hobby after all! :lolsign:
I'd rather be 'traveling minstrel' (can I sing jokes?) if possible?
Lighten up folks!!! Life can be gooooood!
LOL. Intereting call, Anthony. Perhaps Mike is due some sort of promotion...Quote:
thank goodness for mike, you crack me up mate, your outstanding at turning things back to a light hearted discusion, maybe marco, rob, steve, should make you peace maker [maybe court jester?]
Leave it with me ;)
Marco.
will do.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
happy easter all............
anthony....
I'm not in a position to listen to you amps Richard - but on the reviews of others i was on the verge of buying a set of monos and a pre. Why didn't i?
To be honest it was because i'd read a few of your rants on this forum and others. I am well aware that should i have the opportunity to listen to your amps then i'm sure i would buy 'em.... but I think you do yourself no favours in the way you continue your polemic against the industry. any intelligent person knows when they are being sold to and it is up to them to see through this bullshit! I know you make hifi for how YOU want it to sound and i have to commend you for that! BUT you also have to appreciate that whether its a loaf of bread or a pint of milk, or a grands worth of hifi, then some decision making over and above what it tastes or sounds like will come into the equation.
i do feel eventually given the opportunity to listen to your gear that, given the reviews here and elsewhere i will move to the "dickside" but until then i will listen to what i can and the reviews i can and make my decisions.
I do think that sugar coated shit can be sold to those willing to accept the reviews of the demigods in the hifi press and perhaps your marketing stance of standing up to them is little more than marketing bullshit in itself;-) - take a stand and be seen as taking on the giants.
I dunno ..... i bought Linn gear!!
I look forward to my slating!!
Why should I slate you, you have a very valid opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by stupinder
You still base it on sales though - (me) I will sell more if I keep my mouth shut - like the forum owner "shut these people up and you will make more money from the extablished industry" - like the magazine "support these products and I will make sure you get more advertising revenue" - like the reviewer "give it a good review and I will give you all my new product to write about" - And of course the inverse, don't follow the curve and you will be ridiculed.
Sorry I am not playing that game. If present sales continue I will have to put my prices up to control sales, I refuse to employ and get a factory! - I will have to VAT register so that is another 17.5% for a start.
So do me favour please don't buy NVA Stupinder. But if you want to listen too them please do so that gives me far more satisfaction than taking your money, I have enough thanks. Listening is free.
Anyway enough of NVA, this thread keeps being dragged back to NVA. I write this thread because I know this industry having spent man and boy over 40 years in it. I did not come here to promote nva, I have precisely no interest in your business Stupinder. That is what I employ :eyebrows: ebay for, go there. So nva is relevent because it is a part of me, but it is not a part of my thoughts on the industry, that is scratching an itch that has plagued me for years. Listen or not agree or not, but at least it makes you THINK!
Anyway enough of this pretentious claptrap, there is enough on tele over easter to last all year. Stupinder - enjoy your music - bugger everyone and everything else, including me.
Richard what an absolutely ridiculous statement! There's nowt on the box this easter.
Religion - the ex opiate of the masses - you can't get more pretentious than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by stupinder
I've read through many of your postings now richard and the more I read the more I like your outlook. True... you are a cantacerous old git but you are true to your beliefs and as such I admire you. i run a restaurant that is run on the belief that if people find us and like what they eat/experience then they will return. They do ....but it's a slow burn and i will never earn a fortune doing this. I don't want to. I want to offer a great product at a great price without pandering to what is fashionable in the "marketplace" - been there done that.
I think all aspects of life and leisure are being overtaken by the marketing men and people inflating prices giving the impression that "if it costs a lot it must be good" - and we swallow it - My background is in advertising and i know this is fact.
However, we live in a world where the £$€ is king and artisans, with a real belief in their product will be trodden under the foot of those with the big marketing budgets. Perhaps not!!! Perhaps those companies with the bottle to offer the best product they can at the best price they can will be the ones to survive the impending global shit that is innevitable and that the consumer will eventualy see through the marketing bollocks and see ( rather than percieve) what is good value for money
I'm glad you're not interested in my business - if I happen across your products and have the chance to listen to them then i will decide what i think. in a similar way folks who happen on my restaurant will decide if they enjoy the experience or not. i am not cooking for the masses. I am cooking for me and hope the masses enjoy, and are willing to pay for it.
Let them eat mr Kiplings
well said !!!Quote:
Originally Posted by stupinder
since i have been on this forum,[not long] i have tried to catch up and read as many threads as posible, from as many members as posible, [in the time i have] i think i am pretty good at seeing through the bull**it*rs, and there are a lot of people on here who if you put aside their rants, and ribbing, make a lot of sense, i would include richard as one, although he can cut close to the bone at times, he is true to his beliefs, which is more than you can say for a lot of people involved in this some times mad, and ego-tistic industry!!!