Have you asked Wes @Tisbury about it?
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Have you asked Wes @Tisbury about it?
No.
I haven't checked recently but the last time I did I didn't see any R/C versions. They are super smooth, and very silent in operation and should stay that way. They also aren't cheap. Two discounted monos like these wouldn't be too bad though, in an appropriate rating for your kit. I recommend you try them Jerry, FWIW.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Penny-Giles-...item20fdf41767
A stereo version with an R/C geared motor driving it would work but that really would require more than Tisbury would accommodate without going to the drawing board. Gotta have R/C, me.
Seller reckons £550 RRP for these. DIYers not a bad deal here?
Penny and Giles make some superb pots - probably the best there are. They are used in my Mark Levinson preamps.
And would be much better to progress audio appreciation if it was recognized pots are not superb passing audio signals, always degrading audio quality. They are though quite useful passing DC current to a much better device.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry
Attachment 15005
Cheers / Chris
From experience of using many different types of pots (although not those in question), I'd have to agree. No pot I've used is as accurate/uncoloured sounding as a high-quality stepped attenuator :)
Marco.
Well, the Tissy has arrived.... Jeez, this little thing has no Goddamn right to sound so good!! :eek: :eek:
Anyone want to buy a Croft? Lol... Ok, it's not quite *that* good, but for £85, second-hand? Fooking ridiculously good is what it is..........! More later (after much music listening) :)
Marco.
Yup they do sound good although not tried the new one. mind you they only sound as good as what youve got it attached to;)
I thought it lacked impact in my system. Try playing something where the snare really hits you between the eyes and see if it softens that effect any.
No lack of impact here, dude, trust me - not in the slightest. The Copper amp is very sensitive (as are the Tannoys), and I'm using short, 0.5m (Klotz) interconnects.
It's as slammy as a very slammy thing! And oh so fast and dynamic, wide-open and transparent, not to mention effortlessly musical sounding. If I didn't have the Croft (and also needed its in-built phono stage), I could quite happily live with the Tissy as my main 'line controller' - yup, it's that good [no matter whether the Sony CDP is used or the RPi]! :cool:
Mind you, there's something a bit bonkers [IMO, in a good way] about using an £85 passive preamp with a £5k valve amp... :eyebrows:
Marco.
Not sure why, its a pot in a box, if the box didnt exist, and the pot was nn the front of your amp, you would have a £5k valve amp with a volume control, if you also had a input selector, your would have a £5k integrated amp. All makes sense. You just moved the pot and input selector to a different box. If you remember Ian spending months finding a preamp, he ended up with that S&B transformer in a box I built for him, thats no difference other than its a transformer version of the same thing, so it can drive longer lines and break noisy grounds. You dont need gain with line inputs and your Cu amp, so it doesn't surprise me at all a good passive works well for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
I tol' youse it was a goodun, Marco. ;)
Not all passive preamps are born equal by any means, ime.
In my view, the Tizzie beats any Audio Synthesis I've heard in terms of liveliness and dynamics (and I've heard and owned a good few), TVC passives seem overly warm and laidback in comparison, it knocks the likes of the Creek passive into the long grass, and while it is marginally less transparent than the likes of the Glasshouse #1 and the Eva2 LDR I prefer to listen to the Tiz.
Fair points, Nick - and it does sound rather good :)
Don't get me wrong, the Croft still has the edge, but that's the thing: the Tissy isn't being disgraced despite the Croft costing MANY times more! There's also a certain type of sound/style of musical presentation, delivered by good passives, which is rather addictive.
'Soft sounding' or lacking in drive, the Tissy is not! And that's the problem I usually have with passives.
Marco.
Aye, yer lugs are not bad! Lol... Tannoys aside, we do tend to agree about a lot of things in audio :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jandl100
Marco.
Hmmmm....
This Tissy will work nicely with my spare 303!
S.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
Martin, my experiences only, so please take it that way - The old AVI preamp I still keep, mainly for extra input switching duties, is incredibly 'neutral' cosmetically and all the info fed it is there, but I recently discovered that it tends to 'force' the sound along a little, giving you the effect you describe. In my case, this made the sound more 'relentless' and not as 'real,' even into an amp normally used with an active line stage. Connecting in my home-made passive preamp (same attenuators as the Tisbury) improved the 'sound' of this amp no end, significantly closing the gap. This power amp has Noble attenuators already and I think I can confirm that my passive preamp takes away next to nothing and adds absolutely nothing as well. Cables used? SSC with the usual AVI (switcher) to passive and then to NVA powers and Klotz 110 or MC5000 to the HH power amp.
P.S. I could be very wrong here, but I think the whole 'thing' about active preamps was in the olden days (;)), preamps needed to have tone and filter control circuits, phono stages and lots of inputs. Tone bypass often sent that active stage into unity-gain, rather than totally bypass the circuit altogether I believe.
Marco, I shortly have a Krell KSA 50S coming my way in need of some TLC. Once I have it working properly, I have the same dilemma regarding preamp choice. My home made jobbie does the sonic goods just fine, but looks a dogs dinner - it just 'won't do' with a bigger Krell :rolleyes: As to whether the Krell will be as good as it's vaunted, well, that's another tale in the making I reckon...
Dave I know what you mean and that the whole impact thing can be over-egged and therefore not quite right. The Tisbury was the first passive I tried and the transparency on offer was amazing but it was a bit too weak and floppy at the same time. I'm the only person of the many who have tried the Tis here to experience that so I can only put it down to power amp incompatibility. However the NVA P90SA that replaced it had no such issues even with the same power amp.Quote:
Originally Posted by DSJR
I used a passive pre (not the Tisbury) for a couple of years. In the end I reverted to an active pre for precisely the reasons Macca gives: the additional transparency came at the cost of a loss of 'impact'.
Quite obviously different people will have different results with the same components (or will have the same results but react differently to them) so as with all such subjective judgements the only final arbiter is your own ears. The Tisbury, being so relatively cheap is fairly risk-free, and the same goes for the NVA because of the 30 day trial period.
I plumbed the tissie in for a couple of days and enjoyed it for its clarity and accuracy, returning my battery powered Capella to active duties had a noticeable improvement in the width and depth of the sound stage.
I didnt play around with the impedance settings on the amps to carefully match the tissie...from past experience this can make a difference. My tissie is a keeper but cant compete with the active capella sonically in my set up.
Horses for courses methinks.
I haven't tried a pukka stepped attenuator yet. The Tisbury attenuator is a ladder type, working as a conventional pot does, rather than individual resistor 'L-pad' in pairs each 'step' as in better quality attenuators. By the way, my stepped attenuators (50k ones used because I play my workroom system very low most of the time) don't 'sound' any better than the film-pots NVA use in their standard controls, but offer me easier matching in the first two or three 'clicks' of operation.
Marco,
Is your Tisbury the ''Mini'' model?
S.
The problem is stepped attenuators are a bit shite in other ways. I was using a Kondo M77 with a duff stepped attenuator. The contacts wear out, and equal pressure without oxidisation needs to be attained for BOTH channels. This just doesn't happen with a lot of older units.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Therefore, I propose that they are in fact a bit shite if longevity is a concern..
A P&G plastic pot will last way longer, feel fantastic when you twist it - and sound superb. So will an Alps RK series but TBH I prefer the P&G sonically - just sounds a bit smoother and more natural. At least that's what I have convinced myself to be the case. YMMV.
BTW despite using P&Gs and then an Alps RK for many years I now use an active valve preamp. Not because of a lack of dynamics. Very probably because of added distortion my ears appear to like with this particular unit. It just produces a very spacious soundstage. It has a pretty cheap Alps Blue Velvet in it but the circuit somehow makes amends I believe.
The "belief over reality" thang always worries me in this hobby. We convince ourselves of things that aren't really true quite a bit I reckon.
Plus, active gain is necessary for some recordings or use with some TV channels/Blu Ray disks etc in my system.
Lol - well, that certainly isn't my experience! I've had a DACT stepped attenuator fitted to my Croft for about four years now. The amp is used for many hours every day, and I've had no problems whatsoever with contacts wearing out. It sounds stunningly good and significantly outperforms any pot I've used so far :)Quote:
Originally Posted by User211
Marco.
Hi Shane,Quote:
Originally Posted by southall-1998
Not sure if it's called a 'mini', but it's the older model with the plain wood fascia (no writing on it), point-to-point wiring (instead of PCBs), and no gain controls, etc, underneath. Nothing to interfere with the signal path. Just plain and simple! :)
Marco.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Be nice if you post a pic of it with your system.
S.
Here's the original listing, showing the Tissy I've got (you can zoom in on the pics):
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tisbury-Au...vip=true&rt=nc
:cool:
Marco.
I also enjoyed the change when I went passive too. You should fetch it along to the NEBO. Macca will have his NVA, I'll take my Icon Audio passive and if Nick comes again maybe we'll have a super dooper Music First too. MikRik usually brings his Prometheus TVC too. Now that would be interesting to see what differences there are between them all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Hi Rich,
Yup, that sounds like a plan :)
Don't get me wrong here though, the Tissy is NOT replacing the Croft. It was bought for a bit of fun, a) because I'd never heard a passive in my current system, and b) to reduce the 'heat count' in the system during the hot summer months.
I'm happy to report that in that respect it's been a great success, and also sounds superb (much better than I thought it would - offering amazing value for money), but I'm not going to be abandoning the Croft anytime soon!
Marco.
I have one with a DACT Stepper I can bring too.Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB
Ha, I didn't think so... I know how you like to warm your tootsies by some glowing valves lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Both versions have the same model name. As for the whole hard wired vs PCB debate, I don't think it's that straight forward.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
This from Tisbury: 'The circuit board is superior to point-to-point. It’s the same components, still copper wired, and it’s in a better and more controlled layout.'
Even Tron has this to say: 'When hard wiring is not the best method for assembly a circuit board is created and special attention is paid to each track to ensure we maximise the way the complex audio signal passes across the board.'
That said it would certainly be interesting to compare the old and new versions.
Hi Jeff,
Yup, I get all that, and it *may* be true (I can't comment because I haven't done the comparison), but it's contrary to my current experience, dictating that hard-wiring (done well) is better than any PCB, which to my ears, to varying degrees, always seems to impose its own distinctive 'sonic signature' on the music signal.
Hey, I guess unless someone does a back to back comparison, we'll never know. Also, in my system, I don't need the gain switches included on the new model, which are just something else to get in the way and sit on the signal path.
Marco.
I could also bring my LDR passive pre along. Mega-passive bake-off!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali Tait
If we get time.. :-)
I said longevity. Even an ALPS Blue Velvet will last that long... might be on the verge of getting noisy as they do. And they really do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
They also work in discrete steps which is a bit of an arse with some low on step counts. Can never get the right volume.
P&G me any day...:)
Not that keen on the DACT in my passive. It uses metal film SMD resistors, sound a bit harsh to me.
Nope, no noise here whatsoever, not do I expect any to develop. If you want proper longevity, then Anthony TD has been using them in his Soulmate preamps since 2004 (with zero issues in terms of noise or contacts wearing out, reported by him or any of his customers who've bought a Soulmate): http://www.tubedistinctions.co.uk/soul_mate.htmQuote:
Originally Posted by User211
I expect the DACT unit in my Croft to function in the same way, and for a similar amount of time.
Point taken, Justin, but I have no such issues in my system, nor indeed does Anthony in his. It would be impossible to live with the DACT for so long otherwise. Incidentally, the Croft preamp (with DACT fitted) was part of the AoS system you heard, and raved about, at Scalford.Quote:
They also work in discrete steps which is a bit of an arse with some low on step counts. Can never get the right volume.
I guess it depends on how the preamp works that it's fitted to, and also what the electrical relationship is with the partnering power amp - oh and how sensitive (or otherwise) are the speakers. As ever, it's all about synergy :)
Marco.
Sure, as with anything else, it just depends on the circuit the DACT is used in. They are rather 'honest', however, and thus act (IME) simply as an open window, letting one hear exactly what the circuit they are connected to is doing. Therefore, if it sounds harsh, it's most likely a mismatch with the partnering circuit and/or other system components.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali Tait
I seriously doubt anyone who's heard the Croft would say that it sounds harsh, as it's an extremely natural and musical sounding device. I'll bring it to the next NEBO and you can have a listen for yourself. It would be an interesting active preamplifier reference point to use against the assembled passives :cool:
Marco.
Interesting info from Wes, contained in the FAQ section of his ebay advert:
Obviously, he rates (as I do) the DACT units - and for good reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by tisburyaudio
I've not used Goldpoint, so can't comment on those. However, I can categorically say that the Tisbury (with its SMD stepped attenuator) offers the same, if not even greater, transparency as the Croft does, fitted with a DACT stepper. Both have that 'wide-open window onto the music' thing going on, but combined with a relaxed and effortless musicality, which I love and indeed demand from any components used in my system.
I can pay it no higher compliment. It really is a remarkable little device, and I'm utterly delighted with it! :)
There are also no gain or impedance issues in my system, with the Tisbury, certainly on line-level, as both the RPi and Sony DAC provide the required 2V output, and my TD Copper amp has good input sensitivity and plenty of gain.
I've long suspected that (probably for sound electrical reasons), passives, in general, work better with valve power amps than with many SS amps, unless the latter have been designed specifically to be used with a passive device, which I believe is the case, for example, with NVA equipment.
I realise, however, it's not quite as simple as that, and that other factors come into play, but I feel it's no coincidence that the best sounds I've heard to date from passive devices have been when used in conjunction with high-output [at least 2V] audio sources, connected using short (0.5m) ultra-low capacitance interconnects, suitably compatible valve power amps and high-efficiency speakers, as I'm doing now.
Tomorrow I'll use the Croft purely as a phono stage, and connect it thus to the Tisbury, where I suspect the high output levels generated by my vintage SPU-G/T cartridge (with its built-in SUTs, providing tons of gain) will form a superb partnership with it. More on that later :cool:
Marco.
Inclined to agree Marco. I am using a tvc passive and into my high gain valve power it is so much better than when using the active pre before.
Yup, for passives to work properly it's simply a matter of getting the system 'infrastructure' right. Thus done, the results can be (and in my system are, and no doubt yours, too) stunning! :)
Marco.
It would be interesting to compare the Tissie with one of these, which although significantly more expensive, I suspect will still offer exceptional SPPV: http://www.goldpt.com/sa1.html
I like the idea of having 47 steps, too.....
Marco.
This would likely do you nicely .. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Promitheus...item3aad294c91
Possibly, but I'm not sure that I need transformer impedance matching, as things are spot on now with the 'series' stepped attenuator of the Tissie. As such, the Goldpoint (above) interests me more, particularly the version with dual-mono volume controls:
http://www.goldpt.com/sa2x.html
Since things can be configured to your own spec, I'd go with non-balanced and RCAs, as that's what would be suitable for my system. I've always considered, however, that dual-mono volume controls offer greater accuracy and better channel separation, but when implemented with pots (a la Croft), are a pain in the arse to use.
With individual high-quality stepped attenuators, however, that wouldn't be an issue. Mmm... I can sense another project in the making! ;)
Marco.
Lol. Nowt like a project. My promitheus has dual mono vc'd. Its one of the older model s
No, I just don't like the sound of metal films, preferring carbons in pots. Had the same thing when I mistakenly bought a stepper from Hi Fi Collective with metal films to fit into the WAD Pre 2 I had at the time. This was tried in several systems at a previous Owston, and there were several comments on the hard sound. Much better when swapped for a carbon resistor version.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Just personal preference at the end of the day.
Sure, I agree, but what I wrote above also applies. We'll just have to agree to disagree on DACT steppers universally sounding 'harsh' because they use metal film resistors, as if they did that here, I wouldn't be using one, and neither would Anthony be fitting them to his preamps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali Tait
Like I said, I'll bring the Croft to the next NEBO and you can decide for yourself if you can detect the harshness you hear with metal films :)
Marco.
Interestingly, the Tisbury is stated as using a stepper with 'thin film SMD resistors', but it doesn't say whether they're carbon or metal.... It certainly doesn't sound harsh, though!
Marco.
SMD resistors are almost certainly a metal oxide for the resistive element.
Tantalum Nitride or Ruthenium Oxide are common substances.
:)