Is PRaT real, or just an artifact of something else?

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Originally Posted by magiccarpetride

Not sure I understand how do you propose that a hi fi system can inject false 'excitement' into music?

If you go and buy a cheapo boombox, you'll be able to hear anti-PRaT. It will be plainly audible to you how the bass is lagging behind the music, and how not all instruments coincide on the beat. This is due to the fact that those cheapo components tend to be sluggish, inaccurate, delivering scattered sound.

Now play the same tune on a high quality audio system. All of a sudden, the sound tightens up, everything snaps into focus, the bass in particular becomes very agile, and the music is merrily marching on, precisely on the beat. That, my friend, is PRaT!

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You may not be aware where the term prat came from, your attempt at defining it above as you believe it to be suggests so. The term has been used for 40 years and arose from the presentational style of certain manufacturers gear - Naim being one. It may not be wise to try to rewrite history.
All of course in my humble opinion.

And there were no CD players just turntables et al

The way it is described, it sounds like speaker time-alignment to me. Because the rest of the reproduction chain (amps and source) cannot misalign peaks.

Can I ask a question : does prat needs to be recorded, mastered and pressed (for vinyl) with prat equipment, too ? :scratch:

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Originally Posted by AlanS

You may not be aware where the term prat came from, your attempt at defining it above as you believe it to be suggests so. The term has been used for 40 years and arose from the presentational style of certain manufacturers gear - Naim being one. It may not be wise to try to rewrite history.
All of course in my humble opinion.

And there were no CD players just turntables et al

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You're correct, I don't know the genesis of the concept. All I know is that, the way the term PRaT is formulated, it points out (to me at least) the differences between lousy and high quality audio systems. Lousy systems offer a playback that is very messy, all over the place. Play the same track on a high end audio system, and notice how all the messiness disappears as all the instruments snap into focus. That's how I understand the meaning of PRaT, but I may be merely revising history, as you said (in which case, we may need a different acronym for what I'm talking about here;)

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Originally Posted by Themis

The way it is described, it sounds like speaker time-alignment to me. Because the rest of the reproduction chain (amps and source) cannot misalign peaks.

Can I ask a question : does prat needs to be recorded, mastered and pressed (for vinyl) with prat equipment, too ? :scratch:

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No, because speakers play no role in that process.

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Originally Posted by magiccarpetride

No, because speakers play no role in that process.

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And why is that so ?

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Originally Posted by Themis

And why is that so ?

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Actually, Dimitri, I was wrong (should strive to turn the brain on BEFORE typing!)

I think it is absolutely necessary to use the highest possible quality of the recording/mixing/monitoring etc. equipment. Otherwise, you may end up with comical results.

It's not just the speakers because amps, CD players and turntables can also sound 'fast' or 'slow'.

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Originally Posted by magiccarpetride

Actually, Dimitri, I was wrong (should strive to turn the brain on BEFORE typing!)

I think it is absolutely necessary to use the highest possible quality of the recording/mixing/monitoring etc. equipment. Otherwise, you may end up with comical results.

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Ah, I understand better. Nevertheless, if there's misalignment because of the recording/mixing process (the equipment is not prat but crap) and you equipment does not reproduce this misalignment faithfully (but reproduces everything aligned), then the reproduction equipment is not prat.
In other words, it seems to me impossible to decide whether the reproduction equipment is "prat" without knowing the whole chain, even in the case of perfect temporal alignment.

Sorry for being too logical. :o

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Originally Posted by Themis

Ah, I understand better. Nevertheless, if there's misalignment because of the recording/mixing process (the equipment is not prat but crap) and you equipment does not reproduce this misalignment faithfully (but reproduces everything aligned), then the reproduction equipment is not prat.
In other words, it seems to me impossible to decide whether the reproduction equipment is "prat" without knowing the whole chain, even in the case of perfect temporal alignment.

Sorry for being too logical. :o

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No, you make perfect sense. The thing is, most professionally produced music meant for general consumption has been prepared using high quality equipment jockeyed by highly trained pros. It would therefore be extremely unlikely that you'll get misalignments delivered in the final process.

That, however, does not rule out the possibility that some recordings may suffer from comical effects. But if you notice those while playing back, and worry that your audio system may be lousy at PRaT, all you have to do is play several other highly reputable recordings (something mainstream, such as the Beatles catalog for example) to hear whether all the instruments and vocals snap into focus.

999 times out of a 1,000, they should.

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Originally Posted by hifi_dave

It's not just the speakers because amps, CD players and turntables can also sound 'fast' or 'slow'.

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True. I've heard plenty of both types. Let me assure you -- slow is not good.